Wasps current finances & hope (13 Viewers)

chiefdave · Apr 12, 2019

Grendel said:
Festival cancellation of course not anything to do with a shite venue but “major” investor pulling out

The investor thing stinks of BS. The chap behind this was behind the events that got cancelled last year, with the acts ending up at Godiva.

So he couldn't pull off a smaller indoor event with his promotions company going out of business. Then starts a new company and Wasps let him have the stadium bowl for 2 days.

Places the size of Birmingham Academy will question your track record and ability to stage a show if you try and hire them out yet Wasps let this chap have the stadium!

fernandopartridge · Apr 12, 2019

chiefdave said:
The investor thing stinks of BS. The chap behind this was behind the events that got cancelled last year, with the acts ending up at Godiva.

So he couldn't pull off a smaller indoor event with his promotions company going out of business. Then starts a new company and Wasps let him have the stadium bowl for 2 days.

Places the size of Birmingham Academy will question your track record and ability to stage a show if you try and hire them out yet Wasps let this chap have the stadium!

Beggars can't be choosers.

djbooth · Apr 15, 2019

I’ve just checked their bond price and it has dropped around 8% today. I’m not sure how that effects the wasps. I guess it will make it harder for them to refinance if no one has any confidence with them.

fernandopartridge · Apr 15, 2019

djbooth said:
I’ve just checked their bond price and it has dropped around 8% today. I’m not sure how that effects the wasps. I guess it will make it harder for them to refinance if no one has any confidence with them.

I don't think the price has much impact day to day. I reckon people might be flogging them ahead of the next report to investors which is due in a couple of weeks.

Terry Gibson's perm · Apr 15, 2019

I wonder who’s selling them? Maybe somebody who’s knows a bit of why is going on behind the scenes but I’m sure they are all honest there

Nick · Apr 15, 2019

Terry Gibson's perm said:
I wonder who’s selling them? Maybe somebody who’s knows a bit of why is going on behind the scenes but I m ire they’re all honest for the

When covcity4life has been romancing your wife when you are at work and the bastard has the cheek to use your computer for SBT!

Terry Gibson's perm · Apr 15, 2019

Nick said:
When covcity4life has been romancing your wife when you are at work and the bastard has the cheek to use your computer for SBT!

I was still half asleep from my afternoon nap.

Liquid Gold · Apr 15, 2019

8% in one day is a fucking big drop

Captain Dart · Apr 15, 2019

djbooth said:
I’ve just checked their bond price and it has dropped around 8% today. I’m not sure how that effects the wasps. I guess it will make it harder for them to refinance if no one has any confidence with them.

Insider trading

Terry Gibson's perm · Apr 15, 2019

Nick said:
When covcity4life has been romancing your wife when you are at work and the bastard has the cheek to use your computer for SBT!

Changed into English for you Nick

SBAndy · Apr 15, 2019

Captain Dart said:
Insider trading

Wouldn’t surprise me, they’ve broken pretty much every other convention around finance.

CCFC54321 · Apr 15, 2019

Liquid Gold said:
8% in one day is a fucking big drop

Somebody knows something hence that significant drop. We all know there screwed long term it’s just HOW screwed they are. Coincidence if a share holding report is due soon?!

oldskyblue58 · Apr 16, 2019

I wouldn't think that a drop in value was unusual the same time as the FCA announce an investigation. The trades are automatic according to the LSE site so are triggered by preset criteria. Still doesn't seem to be much market for the bonds the value fall triggered by sale of 125,000 bonds in 5 separate sales

Share holding report ? what do you actually mean by that? are you suggesting a takeover/merger report because nothing else is due until 31 October earliest or even 2020. if so how do you know?

Interest payment is due 11 May. Price may drop after that too but it doesn't actually change the day to day trading at the Ricoh

Next full accounts will show the gain from the sale of 27% rights in Premiership to CVC. Sale value to Wasps is around 16.9m i think the value in accounts of their (wasps) share of 27% is around £2.6m. Gain in year 14.3m. That could mean their accounts showing a positive end position for the year

As i understand it the Premiership teams plus London Irish have bought in to a new company that will deal with the commercial rights, that company to be run by CVC. If they do a similar job to what they did for F1 then incomes could increase above current levels and the investment increase in value. Of course that might not happen. The windfall is to be released to fund facilities and infrastructure - that will knock a big hole in the costs of new training facilities (plus the benefit of any grants available for the community element).

Will be interesting to see what the lease valuation is, that should have been done this year

It will also be interesting to see the results of the FCA investigation. It could range from a slap on the wrist to fines to criminal prosecution depending on the actual facts of what went on. Were investors misled? surely the only information investors had were the published audited accounts which highlighted the one major issue but were signed off by the auditors as a correct record as to the financial health of wasps holdings.... were things attempted that were not acceptable?, it looks like it, but they were found and not permitted

Overall income this year can be expected to be hit by under performance on the pitch, Salary costs continue to rise but on the other side of that the new Delaware deal is cheaper than Compass it looks to me. Going forward they look like losing the CCFC income, but they also will lose any associated costs. Will they be hit by a backlash of forcing CCFC out of Coventry who knows, being cynical if Wasps start winning and playing well next season i suspect people will have short memories, most CCFC fans don't go in the first place. Could they replace any of the CCFC income .... who knows apparently ACL in 2013 couldn't but somehow did

Wasps are undoubtedly in the mire at the moment, and i should think they are breathing a big sigh of relief they are already safe in the division for next season, but it isn't all bad news. Isn't going great though.

SBAndy · Apr 17, 2019

oldskyblue58 said:
I wouldn't think that a drop in value was unusual the same time as the FCA announce an investigation. The trades are automatic according to the LSE site so are triggered by preset criteria. Still doesn't seem to be much market for the bonds the value fall triggered by sale of 125,000 bonds in 5 separate sales

Share holding report ? what do you actually mean by that? are you suggesting a takeover/merger report because nothing else is due until 31 October earliest or even 2020. if so how do you know?

Interest payment is due 11 May. Price may drop after that too but it doesn't actually change the day to day trading at the Ricoh

Next full accounts will show the gain from the sale of 27% rights in Premiership to CVC. Sale value to Wasps is around 16.9m i think the value in accounts of their (wasps) share of 27% is around £2.6m. Gain in year 14.3m. That could mean their accounts showing a positive end position for the year

As i understand it the Premiership teams plus London Irish have bought in to a new company that will deal with the commercial rights, that company to be run by CVC. If they do a similar job to what they did for F1 then incomes could increase above current levels and the investment increase in value. Of course that might not happen. The windfall is to be released to fund facilities and infrastructure - that will knock a big hole in the costs of new training facilities (plus the benefit of any grants available for the community element).

Will be interesting to see what the lease valuation is, that should have been done this year

It will also be interesting to see the results of the FCA investigation. It could range from a slap on the wrist to fines to criminal prosecution depending on the actual facts of what went on. Were investors misled? surely the only information investors had were the published audited accounts which highlighted the one major issue but were signed off by the auditors as a correct record as to the financial health of wasps holdings.... were things attempted that were not acceptable?, it looks like it, but they were found and not permitted

Overall income this year can be expected to be hit by under performance on the pitch, Salary costs continue to rise but on the other side of that the new Delaware deal is cheaper than Compass it looks to me. Going forward they look like losing the CCFC income, but they also will lose any associated costs. Will they be hit by a backlash of forcing CCFC out of Coventry who knows, being cynical if Wasps start winning and playing well next season i suspect people will have short memories, most CCFC fans don't go in the first place. Could they replace any of the CCFC income .... who knows apparently ACL in 2013 couldn't but somehow did

Wasps are undoubtedly in the mire at the moment, and i should think they are breathing a big sigh of relief they are already safe in the division for next season, but it isn't all bad news. Isn't going great though.

Most of that I agree with, but CVC were awful in their running of F1. That subsequently changed hands to get to where they are now.

lordsummerisle · Apr 17, 2019

oldskyblue58 said:
Could they replace any of the CCFC income .... who knows apparently ACL in 2013 couldn't but somehow did

Wasn't it the case that they didn't replace the list income and the " washing it's face" comment from Anne Lucas proved to be false?

Captain Dart · Apr 17, 2019

lordsummerisle said:
Wasn't it the case that they didn't replace the list income and the " washing it's face" comment from Anne Lucas proved to be false?

I think they cut costs.

lordsummerisle · Apr 17, 2019

Captain Dart said:
I think they cut costs.

And lost money.

"Coun Lucas told BBC Coventry and Warwickshire she had taken advice on face value from the council’s “advisers and ACL shareholders” – which included council executives – when she claimed ACL had been “very profitable” without the football club in 2013/14. The accounts revealed losses of nearly £400,000.

She also accepted she had taken information to be correct, without any request for further evidence, when asked why she had stated the day after the council’s Wasps deal that ACL was “washing its face” – making a small profit.

Last Thursday, in an article on the Coventry Observer website, the council leader admitted the Ricoh firm had not been “washing its face”. "

chiefdave · Apr 17, 2019

lordsummerisle said:
"Coun Lucas told BBC Coventry and Warwickshire she had taken advice on face value from the council’s “advisers and ACL shareholders” – which included council executives – when she claimed ACL had been “very profitable” without the football club in 2013/14. The accounts revealed losses of nearly £400,000.

I can't see any scenario where I make a mistake like that at work and don't get sacked. Its even worse when you consider it was Reeves and West who were the councils executives in ACL, two of the highest paid people in the council.

jordan210 · Sep 12, 2019

Anyone understand what's going on the wasps bond. Appears to be going down again.

WASPS 22 retail bond price (WAS1) - London Stock Exchange

ccfc92 · Sep 12, 2019

jordan210 said:
Anyone understand what's going on the wasps bond. Appears to be going down again.

WASPS 22 retail bond price (WAS1) - London Stock Exchange

ccfc92 · Sep 12, 2019

jordan210 said:
Anyone understand what's going on the wasps bond. Appears to be going down again.

WASPS 22 retail bond price (WAS1) - London Stock Exchange

I am assuming that's very bad news for Wasps, but assume they will find a way out of it?

CCFC88 · Sep 12, 2019

Refinance to pay the bonds whilst paying a higher rate most likely taking on more debt.

fernandopartridge · Sep 12, 2019

It doesn't affect them day to day or even any immediate impact on their financial position. Not sure how difficult it makes re-financing, as long as they keep paying the interest when due, not sure how they make up any shortfall between the current bond price and the purchase price, or whether the investor takes the hit on that.

CCFC88 · Sep 12, 2019

With May 2022 looming ever closer, the drop in share sales price surely suggests bond holders don't feel they'll be getting their 106.5% in 2 1/2 years?

Big decisions to be made by Wasps finance PLC in the next couple of years.

fernandopartridge · Sep 12, 2019

CCFC88 said:
With May 2022 looming ever closer, the drop in share sales price surely suggests bond holders don't feel they'll be getting their 106.5% in 2 1/2 years?

Big decisions to be made by Wasps finance PLC in the next couple of years.

Hopefully it's to cut their losses and try and re-establish themselves in London

Terry Gibson's perm · Sep 12, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
Hopefully it's to cut their losses and try and re-establish themselves in London

Yep be happy with that or would be happy to see them go bust and all there new followers can go back to whatever they used to do, having looked at them stumbling to the ground it won’t be go back to the gym

oldskyblue58 · Sep 12, 2019

I would not read too much in to what the bond price is. There is not much market for the bonds and if someone wants to get rid they are going to take the hit not wasps. In the scheme of things the total transactions since may 2015 have not been many. Also for a sale to take place there must be a buyer and a seller.

There could be lots of reasons why the bonds have any trades and it is not necessarily because wasps are a basket case. It could be for instance an investor needing to create a loss in their portfolio of investments for tax reasons.

Not saying it will definitely increase, but the nearer to redemption the price should increase because investors will look to create a profit by buying cheap then redeeming at face value. That may create a market and demand for the bonds and push price up again.

As it stands a single trade could drop the price but the reasons for that trade are many and may not have anything to do with wasps

To be honest I am not sure it has much effect on wasps day to day at all, or even really reflects the wasps finances. I think for it to reflect the wasps finances you would have to see many more transactions.

Also nothing has changed much since the last financials. Yes ccfc has left the ricoh which hits turnover but it also hits costs. As the rugby season hasn't started then the season hasn't affected the current price

So I am not convinced that it means much to wasps future

duffer · Sep 13, 2019

As others have said, it doesn't directly affect them on a day-to-day basis, but I can't help but think that it might have an impact on how much it costs them to finance the bond maturity when that comes around.

Can't say that I'm particularly sad about that.

speedie87 · Sep 14, 2019

Think of the bond price as like eBay for second hand goods ; it’s the people who wasps sold the bonds to who are buying /selling the bonds and the demand effects the price. Wasps got their money from the original sale, they just have to pay the interest due each year on the bonds and then repay the original value of the bond to the investors at the end in may 2022

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Sep 16, 2019

Terry Gibson's perm said:
Yep be happy with that or would be happy to see them go bust and all there new followers can go back to whatever they used to do, having looked at them stumbling to the ground it won’t be go back to the gym

can’t wait for their new followers to be complaining about their team moving to London

CCFC88 · Sep 26, 2019

oldskyblue58 said:
I would not read too much in to what the bond price is. There is not much market for the bonds and if someone wants to get rid they are going to take the hit not wasps. In the scheme of things the total transactions since may 2015 have not been many. Also for a sale to take place there must be a buyer and a seller.

There could be lots of reasons why the bonds have any trades and it is not necessarily because wasps are a basket case. It could be for instance an investor needing to create a loss in their portfolio of investments for tax reasons.

Not saying it will definitely increase, but the nearer to redemption the price should increase because investors will look to create a profit by buying cheap then redeeming at face value. That may create a market and demand for the bonds and push price up again.

As it stands a single trade could drop the price but the reasons for that trade are many and may not have anything to do with wasps

To be honest I am not sure it has much effect on wasps day to day at all, or even really reflects the wasps finances. I think for it to reflect the wasps finances you would have to see many more transactions.

Also nothing has changed much since the last financials. Yes ccfc has left the ricoh which hits turnover but it also hits costs. As the rugby season hasn't started then the season hasn't affected the current price

So I am not convinced that it means much to wasps future

What would you suggest is the most likely scenario come the final redemption date? Can you see anything in their accounts that suggest they have the means to pay the bond holders?

Are they more likely to issue new bonds/raise new finance to pay the bond holders? Alternatively can they extend the life of the bonds and push the redemption date if bond holders accept?

oldskyblue58 · Oct 11, 2019

CCFC88 said:
What would you suggest is the most likely scenario come the final redemption date? Can you see anything in their accounts that suggest they have the means to pay the bond holders?

Are they more likely to issue new bonds/raise new finance to pay the bond holders? Alternatively can they extend the life of the bonds and push the redemption date if bond holders accept?

I think from day one they were always going to refinance to repay the bond. If they were making the sort of profits after tax to save for the repayment they would not have needed the bond in the first place . Frankly any emphasis on "they haven't got the money to repay" fails to understand how they set it up. It is not an indicator as such of impending doom

That said I don't think things have gone exactly to plan and the finances and associated errors will not help the refinancing. Their finances are not great. It will be new refinancing I don't think the bond will simply roll over on the same terms. It might even be different type of finance all together e.g. traditional bank loan, an issue of a new class of shares, New investors, etc. Or a mixture of these

Wasps are trying to make cost savings. Same as any responsible company would same Ccfc are. Yes they made 9m loss in previous accounts but that included some one off corrections. They are not as dependent on crowd numbers as many other sports teams. So without any inside knowledge I would expect an improvement in 2019 over 2018.

They will lose the Ccfc turnover but also the associated costs, possibly replace some of the turnover in other ways and perhaps at a better margin. Might allow them to restructure and make savings. No idea if that has happened but I suspect from reports earlier this year some attention has been paid to it. But that will be in the 2020 figures.

The CVC deal will have more of an effect on the wasps balance sheet than people seem to realise. There will be funds in the bank (restricted in use but could help build the new training ground which would then be a balance sheet asset for example with possibly grants available too)

However the owner of Exeter estimated the deal would add around 50m to each clubs balance sheet. There is the cash element approx £13m but the P share (like a golden share for Ccfc) would have a value based on what CVC paid for its 27% £200m. That values the premiership at at least £740m and wasps have one 13th share in it. In the last accounts the P share was valued at 9m I think. That improvement in the balance sheet will not hinder the refinancing.

Anyway we should have more of an idea at the end of the month when figures published.

Things to look out for
Valuation of the long lease
Valuation of the P share
Operating profit excluding the sale to CVC and any revaluation of shares or property
The net position on the balance sheet
Cash flow position excluding the CVC share sale.
How much they owe the owner

oldfiver · Oct 12, 2019

oldskyblue58 said:
Anyway we should have more of an idea at the end of the month when figures published.

Things to look out for
Valuation of the long lease
Valuation of the P share
Operating profit excluding the sale to CVC and any revaluation of shares or property
The net position on the balance sheet
Cash flow position excluding the CVC share sale.
How much they owe the owner

https://www.wasps.co.uk/media/5623/ricoh-arena-final-valuation-report-2019-summary.pdf

TenancyA number of lease and license agreements detailed in the tenancy schedule within. Key tenancies include a letting to Grosvenor Casinos; licence to Coventry City Football Club and licence to London Wasps Rugby Football Club.
Franchise agreement with Hilton to operate the hotel
Market Value£51,000,000 (Fifty One Million Pounds)

OOPs!

SBAndy · Oct 12, 2019

Valuation in at £51m which is £16m down on previous valuation. Current long-term borrowing (as at June 18) sat at just over £51m and was trending in the wrong direction. This could be a little bit of a problem.

chiefdave · Oct 12, 2019

oldfiver said:
TenancyA number of lease and license agreements detailed in the tenancy schedule within. Key tenancies include a letting to Grosvenor Casinos; licence to Coventry City Football Club and licence to London Wasps Rugby Football Club.
Franchise agreement with Hilton to operate the hotel
Market Value£51,000,000 (Fifty One Million Pounds)

Wasn't the last valuation a lot higher? Why has it dropped so much when we keep getting told they are doing more business than ever?

If they have us listed as a key tenancy now we're going you'd have to assume another drop. How much does the valuation have to drop before they breach the bond terms?

Wasps current finances & hope (13 Viewers)

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