Wasps downward spiral... (4 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

,

John tends to be in the know more than most, which is unfortunate


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Who would put money into wasps and why?

 

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[Grendel]

John tends to be in the know more than most, which is unfortunate


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I doubt they have investment totalling £35 m actually it’s unlikely to be investment at all - it’s more loans I guess

 

[SHUNT31]

,

Who would put money into wasps and why?

I did ask myself the same thing.


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[SHUNT31]

I doubt they have investment totalling £35 m actually it’s unlikely to be investment at all - it’s more loans I guess

Would need to be more than £35m in my opinion. They’ve had COVID loans from government too apparently. Let’s hope it’s not true.

I think this week has shown us that there will never be the investment needed from the current ownership and the only way I see us becoming attractive to a potential buyer is if there is a stadium available to buy too.


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[Grendel]

I did ask myself the same thing.


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I wouldn’t be surprised if they push the admin button leave the bond holders high and dry and reset - the bond holders can force the issue without that regardless of investment

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they push the admin button leave the bond holders high and dry and reset - the bond holders can force the issue without that regardless of investment

What is the mechanism for them to do that?

 

[SHUNT31]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they push the admin button leave the bond holders high and dry and reset - the bond holders can force the issue without that regardless of investment

If they go into admin, I’m sure I read on their forum the trustees of the bond will be forced to act, regardless of any vote from bondholders, and that the lease would be sold to the highest bidder? Not an expert on bonds and charges though. Im sure someone on here will know.

I would imagine Derek Richardson has got something shady up his sleeve however.


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[CCFC54321]

John tends to be in the know more than most, which is unfortunate


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I don’t believe for a minute that anyone would provide additional investment into wasps one bit.

 

[MalcSB]

If they go into admin, I’m sure I read on their forum the trustees of the bond will be forced to act, regardless of any vote from bondholders, and that the lease would be sold to the highest bidder? Not an expert on bonds and charges though. Im sure someone on here will know.

I would imagine Derek Richardson has got something shady up his sleeve however.


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Going into admin is given in the bond prospectus as an example of something that could trigger action by the Trustees. However, the trustees have recently reminded bondholders that it is just an example, it is not a given that they would take any action in that circumstance. Makes you wonder whose interests the trustees are there to protect.

 

[jordan210]

John tends to be in the know more than most, which is unfortunate


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doeent John like to be centre of attention so would say anything to provoke a reaction.

unless council have chucked them some money I struggle to see who would invest in them.

 

[CCFC54321]

doeent John like to be centre of attention so would say anything to provoke a reaction.

unless council have chucked them some money I struggle to see who would invest in them.

Utter clap trap from this chap. Nobody would invest to lose there hard earned money in a rugby club that has the morals of an alley cat.

 

[Astute]

Going into admin is given in the bond prospectus as an example of something that could trigger action by the Trustees. However, the trustees have recently reminded bondholders that it is just an example, it is not a given that they would take any action in that circumstance. Makes you wonder whose interests the trustees are there to protect.

The trustees have a fiduciary responsibility to the issuer of bonds. In plain English this means that they have a responsibility to act on the best actions of the issuer of the bonds and not on their own behalf or of that of the registered bond holders.

It has slightly changed now the bonds are in default. They have to keep an eye on what is happening and to take action when needed. But they still have the fiduciary responsibility to the issuer. Any action taken must be paid for by the bondholders or taken from the funds crystallised if action is taken IIRC. So even if the bondholders want to take action it isn't a given right. And trustees would normally have an indemnity on losses incurred unless it could be proven it was their fault. Fiduciary responsibility covers them for nearly everything.

 

[fernandopartridge]

But they don't automatically get the ground - that is in the prospectus

They also need >25% of bondholders to block any WF proposal. They are concerned that WF come back and offer a highly discounted figure or a very long term loan position which any larger bondholder might accept

Is the >25% just the nominal bondholders or >25% of the value of bonds?

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[MalcSB]

Is the >25% just the nominal bondholders or >25% of the value of bonds?

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Value

 

[rexo87]

Dawkins knows a thing or two about the playing side of things due to knowing a player or two but has no idea on the outer dealings of the club/CBS situation. Take that comment with a pinch of salt

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[CCFC54321]

Dawkins knows a thing or two about the playing side of things due to knowing a player or two but has no idea on the outer dealings of the club/CBS situation. Take that comment with a pinch of salt

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I agree. Utter tripe they have secured investment.

 

[chiefdave]

I agree. Utter tripe they have secured investment.

Surely nobody in their right mind is sinking money into Wasps, and if by some miracle they've found someone to write a blank cheque wouldn't we be talking a takeover?

What is more likely is that they've found someone willing to loan them the money they need. They questions then are will the bond holders get paid or is there a SISU like admin in their future and what are the repayment terms. Its all well and good getting someone to loan you a huge amount but they're still losing millions a year and I'd be surprised if they'd manage to get something similar to the bonds where they only have to worry about interest for the next few years.

 

[tisza]

Surely nobody in their right mind is sinking money into Wasps, and if by some miracle they've found someone to write a blank cheque wouldn't we be talking a takeover?

What is more likely is that they've found someone willing to loan them the money they need. They questions then are will the bond holders get paid or is there a SISU like admin in their future and what are the repayment terms. Its all well and good getting someone to loan you a huge amount but they're still losing millions a year and I'd be surprised if they'd manage to get something similar to the bonds where they only have to worry about interest for the next few years.

seems hard to believe they can raise new funds from a "commercial" source when the bondholders would hold the first option on the main asset. Again there is nothing in the historic performance of the Arena to suggest it is a money spinner or that income streams can be dramatically increased in the current economic crisis. Anyone fancy paying the Arena utility bills for the next 12 months??

 

[MalcSB]

seems hard to believe they can raise new funds from a "commercial" source when the bondholders would hold the first option on the main asset. Again there is nothing in the historic performance of the Arena to suggest it is a money spinner or that income streams can be dramatically increased in the current economic crisis. Anyone fancy paying the Arena utility bills for the next 12 months??

if the funds raised were used to pay the bondholders, they wouldn’t have any hold over the main asset.

I wonder if HSBC stepped back when they saw that recovery from the security wouldn’t be entirely straightforward as the headlease is supposed to return to the council if Wasps went bust.

 

[tisza]

if the funds raised were used to pay the bondholders, they wouldn’t have any hold over the main asset.

I wonder if HSBC stepped back when they saw that recovery from the security wouldn’t be entirely straightforward as the headlease is supposed to return to the council if Wasps went bust.

Also any commercial lender is going to want a full report on actual stadium valuation and these reported repairs that need doing. Nothing in Wasps historic financial performance to show they can service a 10 year loan. Add in level of debt to owner and it just looks shaky

 

[oldfiver]

Is the >25% just the nominal bondholders or >25% of the value of bonds?

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J

 

[oldfiver]

J

Bond value, the FB forum says they have 1,259% notified to them with more people getting their papers in place

 

[ccfcchris]

It doesn't matter how many new investments/loans they secure until they stem their massive losses each year.

 

[oldfiver]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they push the admin button leave the bond holders high and dry and reset - the bond holders can force the issue without that regardless of investment

Probably Admin is the last thing they want

If they can get >75% of Bond Value support they can push through a proposal to extend the loan term or offer a substantial reduction on the debt for early repayment. Throw in a bung from WMCA because the Bond Funding has been sorted and it all looks more positive

The alternative is a CVA once the Bond Fund sorted

There is still one other problem - Compass also have a charge on the stadium

 

[MalcSB]

Bond value, the FB forum says they have 1,259% notified to them with more people getting their papers in place

I assume you meant a point not a comma (sorry for being a pedant)

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

Whose been banned from Drunken Wasp then, own up.

 

[Grendel]

Tomorrow is supposedly announcement day - can’t see anything but another placeholder statement

 

[oldfiver]

Is the >25% just the nominal bondholders or >25% of the value of bonds?

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I assume you meant a point not a comma (sorry for being a pedant)

Not a problem - I was in European - US mode

 

[MalcSB]

I see Wasps have rejected a proposal to merge with Worcester.

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

I see Wasps have rejected a proposal to merge with Worcester.

Havnt seen that anywhere

 

[Nick]

 

[tisza]

I see Wasps have rejected a proposal to merge with Worcester.

Worcester symptomatic of several professional rugby clubs ( and more than a few football clubs).
Completely reliant on owners money as not viable businesses. then sadly in these cases owner dies and family aren't interested in continuing on.

 

[chiefdave]

I see Wasps have rejected a proposal to merge with Worcester.

a serious proposal or is it a fan rumour type thing? think we all know Wasps wouldn't be interested in anything that didn't directly benefit themselves.

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

Worcester maybe going into admin before being bought out, the closed shop the RFU have caused is ridiculous, if they gave out more money to championship clubs it would be so much more competitive. Teams like Ealing, Cornish Pirates, Cov etc would be chomping at the bit for promotion, the stupid requirement of a 10000 all seater stadium don't help at all one bit.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Needs must?