Wasps Value Ricoh Arena at £48.5 million (1 Viewer)

NorthernWisdom

Well-Known Member
10 years would be sensible. <br>
<br>
If SISU are serious about a new stadium at the pace they are going we'll still need to be there in 10 years time. If they ain't it gives them plenty of time to get their litigation out the way and sell to some serious owners and if they want to build us a new stadium.


It does need in addition to that, pressure for:

a) changes to the CCC local plan and
b) club to talk to CCC and
c) CCC to talk to club

Constructively about where a stadium can be situated. Get the bullshit about personalities out the way and actually talk. Even if (when!) SISU are bluffing, we still need the process to at least have *some* momentum rather than the nonsense about whether to stock local pies or not.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
It does need in addition to that, pressure for:

a) changes to the CCC local plan and
b) club to talk to CCC and
c) CCC to talk to club

Constructively about where a stadium can be situated. Get the bullshit about personalities out the way and actually talk. Even if (when!) SISU are bluffing, we still need the process to at least have *some* momentum rather than the nonsense about whether to stock local pies or not.

Agreed. I don't believe for one minute that anyone who willingly invests their money in a hedge fund is so sensitive that they won't deal with CCC.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Once again your true colours show.

The reason we won't get a good deal is that wasps are owned by an organisation interested in one thing - money. They have no interest in values, tradition and heritage. Those are the reasons we won't get a good deal despite your continued pathetic defence of them

Sigh
 

NorthernWisdom

Well-Known Member
Agreed. I don't believe for one minute that anyone who willingly invests their money in a hedge fund is so sensitive that they won't deal with CCC.

I could. I could believe full well city financiers used to a fast-paced environment where one person has the authority to say yes or no on the spot, meet provincial council, where decisions have to be approved by many, and discussed... is a recipe for both of them to want to kill the other.

That, however, doesn't excuse either side for letting personal feelings take over.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
I could. I could believe full well city financiers used to a fast-paced environment where one person has the authority to say yes or no on the spot, meet provincial council, where decisions have to be approved by many, and discussed... is a recipe for both of them to want to kill the other.

That, however, doesn't excuse either side for letting personal feelings take over.

At the end of the day it's about money. If they can make a few quid by building a football stadium in Coventry they'll do it.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Agreed. I don't believe for one minute that anyone who willingly invests their money in a hedge fund is so sensitive that they won't deal with CCC.

Or indeed the other way round
 

Sick Boy

Well-Known Member
Once again your true colours show.

The reason we won't get a good deal is that wasps are owned by an organisation interested in one thing - money. They have no interest in values, tradition and heritage. Those are the reasons we won't get a good deal despite your continued pathetic defence of them

Hear hear! Nail on the head.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Hear hear! Nail on the head.

Wasps are businessmen and are aware you can still generate good money without charging us silly money and forcing us out.
It's all about getting the balance right and allowing us to buy into whatever facilities we want ( Not free )

Close the thread ........ the seals are all lining up and clapping in synchro.
 

Sick Boy

Well-Known Member
Wasps are businessmen and are aware you can still generate good money without charging us silly money and forcing us out.
It's all about getting the balance right and allowing us to buy into whatever facilities we want ( Not free )

Close the thread ........ the seals are all lining up and clapping in synchro.

As long as the amount club pay is reflective of what Wasps paid, then why not? It wouldn't be that much.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Found this Dave which seems to indicate s123 of the 1972 Local Government Act is not so clear. Don't think either of us would be surprised by that

http://localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/...972again&catid=58:property-articles&Itemid=26

in any case section 123 seems to relate land disposals so is it relevant? CCC disposed of shares in ACL then granted a lease extension to an existing tenant. Was best value gained? were valuations done? Could anyone else be invited to have the long lease? Is the order in which things got done vital in determining any challenge?

Same site provides some guidance on share disposals

http://localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/...disposal&catid=58:property-articles&Itemid=26

Part of that guidance indicates that a council is entitled to keep things confidential.

There will always be a risk of information leaking during the sale process. The authority is entitled to withhold information relating to the commercial affairs of any individual, including the authority itself, and to exclude press and public from meetings when such information is under discussion. Members are precluded by the Code of Conduct, and officers are precluded by their contracts of employment, from disclosing confidential information, but standards or disciplinary proceedings after the event cannot remedy the damage caused by an unauthorised disclosure, and such disclosures on some transactions have caused bidders to withdraw.

This risk can be reduced through relatively simple steps such as having a code name for the project and strictly limiting the number of persons involved in the project. Similarly, it may be appropriate to restrict the commercially sensitive data which is made available to bidders in the early stages. Authorities will need clear communication protocols to define who can respond to enquiries.


I know that wont sit well with many. Whilst I can perhaps see the argument for confidential discussions to get a deal done, I am not convinced by such arguments after it has been. In any case the article seems to make clear that all interested parties should be contacted with a view to getting them to put in a detailed bid. Was that done? Were there only 2 potential bidders? Did shareholder agreements mean neither stakeholder wanted to sell to SISU so a bid from them was not likely to succeed? Did SISU actually reject making a bid? I think CCC would have to make clear to SISU that a bid from them was invited but covered by a NDA? Lot of rumours flying around before the deal was done where did they come from?

So what constitutes best value in this case? - I have no idea to be honest because it isn't just about pounds sterling it would seem

The above links are of course only links to generalised legal opinion. Don't think things will become any clearer until February and the court case.

The first JR would seem to have been short circuited by the loan being repaid. That could leave CCC open to a penalty from the EU if they lost. Compensation payable to SISU/ARVO/SBS&L is not necessarily so clear cut and likely to take years to settle -assuming they win their case. Assuming CCC do not appeal or SISU do not appeal further.

The second JR is not so clear as that even because we do not know the details yet. However as CCFC/SISU had moved away and any contractual obligation broken then the path to compensation would seem even more tenuous than for JR1. Is that perhaps in part why the club were allowed/invited back on a day rent basis? - to keep at arms length?

Then there appears to be new guidance from January 2014 on State Aid

http://localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/...atid=49:comment-a-analysis-articles&Itemid=26

Basically all as clear as mud
 
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chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Found this Dave which seems to indicate s123 of the 1972 Local Government Act is not so clear. Don't think either of us would be surprised by that

in any case section 123 seems to relate land disposals so is it relevant?

It certainly isn't clear that's for sure. Section 123 does seem to relate to land disposals however there are cases that quote section 123 that aren't land but assets which confuses things.

CCC disposed of shares in ACL then granted a lease extension to an existing tenant. Was best value gained? were valuations done? Could anyone else be invited to have the long lease? Is the order in which things got done vital in determining any challenge?

Going through the regulations is mind numbing stuff and I lost the will to live. What I did find was several councils have written their own guides for staff on asset disposal to ensure they don't fall foul of regulations. They all state the same process. Get a valuation and advertise the sale.

In terms of the order of things they could argue that the lease extension was sold to a sitting tenant however the question then would be when was that first discussed. If it was before the sale of ACL I think you would move into an area where questions would need to be asked as you could argue that constituted one deal.

Whilst I can perhaps see the argument for confidential discussions to get a deal done, I am not convinced by such arguments after it has been. In any case the article seems to make clear that all interested parties should be contacted with a view to getting them to put in a detailed bid. Was that done? Were there only 2 potential bidders? Did shareholder agreements mean neither stakeholder wanted to sell to SISU so a bid from them was not likely to succeed? Did SISU actually reject making a bid?

It does seem the actual discussions can be confidential but as you say you still need to ensure best value and that everyone is aware of the sale.

So what constitutes best value in this case? - I have no idea to be honest because it isn't just about pounds sterling it would seem

The first thing I guess would be the valuation. If the sale price matches the valuation (assuming the valuation stands up to scrutiny of course) then the council are on solid ground. If it doesn't then there needs to be questions asked as to why it was sold under value.

The first JR would seem to have been short circuited by the loan being repaid. That could leave CCC open to a penalty from the EU if they lost. Compensation payable to SISU/ARVO/SBS&L is not necessarily so clear cut and likely to take years to settle -assuming they win their case.

The second JR is not so clear as that even because we do not know the details yet. However as CCFC/SISU had moved away and any contractual obligation broken then the path to compensation would seem even more tenuous than for JR1. Is that perhaps why the club were allowed/invited back on a day rent basis?

Having read up more I can almost see where SISU were coming from with the first JR. European rules seem stricter and appear to term any involvement with a private comany on a non-commercial basis as a subsidy and therefore state aid. I'm surprised SISU didn't get someone to give evidence saying they wouldn't have offered a loan to ACL on the same terms, similarly CCC could have shown evidence a commercial loan was available on the same terms.

The second JR seems to have a lot more scope to cause problems for CCC. If SISU can show CCC have sold ACL under value and / or not notified all potential interested parties things could get interesting.

Of course even in the event SISU do win you have to wonder what they will actually get out of it.

In my opinion this could all be cleared off if CCC would come out with some detail. The more they try to hide behind confidentiality the more it looks like they have something to hide.
 

olderskyblue

Well-Known Member
Fair enough! Best tell olderskyblue that ;)

I know italia takes some stick, and clearly has a thick enough skin to deal with it, it just made me smile when I saw an argument peddled by him ages ago, and attacked by many for it, regurgitated by a different poster, and that poster get applauded for it by those same people.... :claping hands:
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
All raises so many questions doesn't it. When you think you have the answer to one question that answer raises half a dozen other questions.

We do have one kind of valuation of ACL though. It had to be consolidated into the Wasps Group at the date of sale at fair value (under the accounting rules used). It would seem that Wasps paid £188k above that balance sheet value to acquire it. Whether that is the commercial value in an arms length deal is a point perhaps open to debate of course - did the ACL lease with 40 years left have a value of something like £18m for example. If that lease had a commercial value of much less/more then it would bring any total value lower/higher. You would think with multi million pound deals being done there would be valuations and due diligence though wouldn't you. We just don't know but the auditors are duty bound to consider if all values ain the Balance Sheet are true & fair

The argument from SISU seems to be that no investor in a company would put money in to a company except on commercial terms (yes I know we are talking local authority which has some other rules to comply with) but the principle is flawed. I have plenty of clients or investors that do exactly that for specific reasons and do not charge interest. Will depend if the appeal judges feel that under European law CCC had a right to protect its investment.

From what I read then the remedies would seem to be (1) revisit the process (2) immediate repayment both of which would seem to be mute points now. CCC could still be fined by the EU Commission. SISU then have to prove that the loan decision caused them damage which wont be easy when they exacerbated the situation by withholding contractually due rent in the first place, it isn't up to CCC, ACL or AEHC to run the CCFC business or to take responsibility for it. As for reputational damage they are claiming then I think we would agree "pot calling kettle black"

Who knows ...... only thing I am reasonably certain of is that there will not be a speedy resolution to any of it....... I expect it to rumble on for years
 
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skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
It certainly isn't clear that's for sure. Section 123 does seem to relate to land disposals however there are cases that quote section 123 that aren't land but assets which confuses things.

I've been looking on and of for something that covers the sale of local authority owned assets such as ACL and I'm really struggling to find anything. It seems that there is a big gap in proper procedure on such matters. It's as though it goes from proper process for selling a council house to the Tennant straight to land disposal with nothing in-between.

Maybe that's why there's case's that quote section 123 that aren't with regards to land assets as you say. Be interesting to know if it actually carried any weight in the cases you've talked about or if it was just dismissed as irrelevant.
 

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