Wasps (2 Viewers)

Cheshire Sky Blue · Nov 23, 2014

lordsummerisle said:
Nobody seems to have yet come up with a reason why ACL had to be sold off to anybody yet.

Particularly for what seems such a low price.

It is very disappointing that we lost out on The Ricoh. The only reason I can see that CCC & Higgs moved, was that if they had delayed and Wasps moved on, then they probably felt that SISU were the only other game in town. And whilst I deeply regret that our clubs owners have managed to create such an air of mistrust, even to the level of hatred, I can probably reconcile why neither CCC nor Higgs wanted to deal with them.

I like many on this and other media sites, just live in hope that somewhere behind all of this is someone who has a plan that brings all the sports together. I just do not want to contemplate the possibility that the SISU induced downward spiral can never be reversed. So I hope and pray that there is a bigger plan being played out.

Jack Griffin · Nov 23, 2014

lordsummerisle said:
Nobody seems to have yet come up with a reason why ACL had to be sold off to anybody yet.

Particularly for what seems such a low price.

I have a reason, they want nothing more to do with all this shit.. they are happy to let Wasps & SISU fight it out.

skybluetony176 · Nov 23, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
I have a reason, they want nothing more to do with all this shit.. they are happy to let Wasps & SISU fight it out.

Yep. Let operation distress the Wasps commence. What could possibly go wrong. Its hard to see what other angle SISU have.

skybluetony176 · Nov 23, 2014

lordsummerisle said:
Nobody seems to have yet come up with a reason why ACL had to be sold off to anybody yet.

Particularly for what seems such a low price.

Nobodies yet come up with a reason with why SISU had to go the route they chose too, when Wasps made it look so easy.

Thats the question every CCFC fan should be asking. Anything else is a distraction from the real issue.

shy_tall_knight · Nov 23, 2014

martcov said:
Maybe it's not the in the councils remit to be involved in a stadium Management company and after the constant litigation it was probably in everyone's ( except poor old CCFC's ) interest to sell at a lower price in order to move on quickly

I totally agree without doubt SISU are the main culprits here but CCC & Higgs are not blame free either initial rent plus limited access to matchday funds ensured CCFC at the Ricoh was going to be a financial disaster. I think both CCC & Higgs saw the Ricoh as something bigger and grander than a football stadium but failed to effectively develop the business whilst CCFC bankrolled it. When it was clear that the club's finances were struggling in 2007 there was no offer to reduce rent or give the club more access to revenues instead they hoped that SISU would continue to bankroll their venture.

In my opinion it got too personal from both sides hence the quick exit. In my opinion the clash in cultures between a charity & the public sector v the personality style of a hedge fund ensured that reasonable negotiation wasn't possible. When working class councillors take on a hedge fund I felt that they may have been championing another cause. Mutton "we won't sell to SISU" Higgs "we don't need CCFC" were all poorly judged statements.

In the end ACL was sold to a hedge fund and it seems to be valued as cheap.

letsallsingtogether · Nov 23, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
Nobodies yet come up with a reason with why SISU had to go the route they chose too, when Wasps made it look so easy.

Thats the question every CCFC fan should be asking. Anything else is a distraction from the real issue.

That's the part I don't get.

How people can keep blaming everyone else in this sorry state of affairs.

1 common denominator here.

one party that didn't want to speak to anyone?

one party that pissed off 3 different companies in it's persecute for dominance.

only one party now can get in there and get the best deal possible for CCFC.

Yet some still believe they can be our saviors:laugh::laugh:

Their track record at this club says it all. Complete cluster Fuck..........

wingy · Nov 23, 2014

The rents ,both Initially for ACL and for the Club from the get go were both onerous undertakings, £1.9M and £1.2M respectively .

What wasn't reflected, as It pretty quickly reverted to the lease situation, was a similar reduction for the club to around half of the original ,which was

what ACL achieved for itself .

We could also ask why the YB loan had to be paid down over the 20 odd years when the lease was for 50yrs, yes that would Involve more interest but

wouldn't have been so heavy on the Club.

Finally ,at least a third of the £60M construction cost was attributable to the Event /Exhibition Facilities on site ,Why was It the Clubs responsibility

through the rent to facilitate ACL's responsibility for that ?

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 23, 2014

Hate Hillman hunters, therefore I love Austin maxis

martcov · Nov 23, 2014

I agree about the clash of cultures being a Major problem. Having said that, SISU should have had enough Sense to play along with the Council. The relationship with the council was the important thing - if you want to get on in the City which is in the team's name -, but SISU left that as a low priority. Wasps built a relationship of Trust and ended up with the stadium at a good price. I don't think even Joy ( probably the most astute Person on both sides ) realised the importance of a good relationship in this case and went on to a "take it or leave it" approach. CCC left it - hello Wasps.

Cheshire Sky Blue · Nov 23, 2014

martcov said:
I agree about the clash of cultures being a Major problem. Having said that, SISU should have had enough Sense to play along with the Council. The relationship with the council was the important thing - if you want to get on in the City which is in the team's name -, but SISU left that as a low priority. Wasps built a relationship of Trust and ended up with the stadium at a good price. I don't think even Joy ( probably the most astute Person on both sides ) realised the importance of a good relationship in this case and went on to a "take it or leave it" approach. CCC left it - hello Wasps.

If Joy didn't realise that 'relationships' in a big business deal aren't important then I am afraid she is not 'Astute' that is ignorance. I happen to think she does know that relationships are important. But sadly, I think she had a strategy of destruction so it was a lower order priority.

skybluetony176 · Nov 23, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
Hate Hillman hunters, therefore I love Austin maxis

I always saw the Hunter as an alternative to the Mk2 Cortina myself. Both rear wheel drive, both had a boot and both had boxy styling wheras your Maxi was front wheel drive and a hatch back. Perhaps thats why you prefered the Maxi

wingy · Nov 23, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
I always saw the Hunter as an alternative to the Mk2 Cortina myself. Both rear wheel drive, both had a boot and both had boxy styling wheras your Maxi was front wheel drive and a hatch back. Perhaps thats why you prefered the Maxi

Does anyone around the world still produce the ahead of Time Maxi, albeit with many failings such as Corrosion .

Persuaded me dear old Dad to buy a second hand one after a series of giant ford Zodiacs ,bad mistake ,played up rotten ,but five door ,transverse

engine ,FWD,and most importantly 5 gears .

Think the Hunter may still be In production as the Topaz In Iran .

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 23, 2014

wingy said:
does anyone around the world still produce the ahead of Time Maxi, albeit with many failings such as Corrosion .

Persuaded me dear old Dad to buy a second hand one after a series of giant ford Zodiacs ,bad mistake ,played up rotten ,but five door ,transverse engine ,FWD,and most importantly 5 gears .

Think the Hunter may still be In production as the Topaz In Iran .

They stopped tje Hunter nearly a decade ago. it was a Paykan.

Incidentally, on a Google for a picture I found this:

Seems the styling cues are a classic!

wingy · Nov 23, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
They stopped tje Hunter nearly a decade ago. it was a Paykan.

Incidentally, on a Google for a picture I found this:

Seems the styling cues are a classic!

Ah maybe It was the Topaz back here at some point .

Did they bring In some of the Iranian produced ones and rebadge at a Later date??

Any old Rootes/Chrysler employees on here??

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 23, 2014

wingy said:
Any old Rootes/Chrysler employees on here??

Getting even more OT, but if they worked for Rootes at Ryton, I'd like a PM from them

martcov · Nov 23, 2014

lordsummerisle said:
Nobody seems to have yet come up with a reason why ACL had to be sold off to anybody yet.

Particularly for what seems such a low price.

Cheshire Sky Blue said:
If Joy didn't realise that 'relationships' in a big business deal aren't important then I am afraid she is not 'Astute' that is ignorance. I happen to think she does know that relationships are important. But sadly, I think she had a strategy of destruction so it was a lower order priority.

In her business where she deals in distressed companies ( she was referred to as the Queen of Debt once upon a time ) she is in the driving seat and can maybe call the tune. With a lumbering , but powerful council, she should have done things differently. I still assume she is astute - she wouldn't have survived in her World otherwise - just in this case she misjudged the relationship part. An example of that ( in the case of with us ) is her first interview where she told everyone that she is a devout Christian.... That may impress americans, but is irrelevant to most in Cov. I think she was as far off in her relationship with CCC.

wingy · Nov 23, 2014

martcov said:
In her business where she deals in distressed companies ( she was referred to as the Queen of Debt once upon a time ) she is in the driving seat and can maybe call the tune. With a lumbering , but powerful council, she should have done things differently. I still assume she is astute - she wouldn't have survived in her World otherwise - just in this case she misjudged the relationship part. An example of that ( in the case of with us ) is her first interview where she told everyone that she is a devout Christian.... That may impress americans, but is irrelevant to most in Cov. I think she was as far off in her relationship with CCC.

Think she misread the human element In total ,be that us as fans or the CCC representing 300K+ population .

Nothing like dealing with a set of angry shareholders or a Board of directors.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Nov 23, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
Getting even more OT, but if they worked for Rootes at Ryton, I'd like a PM from them

My Dad worked at Rootes, Chrysler, Talbot, Peugeot in its various forms. We had the full range of cars, from Minx, through Humbers to Simcas and Solaras. Highlights would be an Avenger Tiger, Rancho, Talbot Tagora, Sunbeam Rapier H120 and a Sunbeam Lotus (moonstone blue). Great times. Their Christmas pantomimes were terrific!

martcov · Nov 23, 2014

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
My Dad worked at Rootes, Chrysler, Talbot, Peugeot in its various forms. We had the full range of cars, from Minx, through Humbers to Simcas and Solaras. Highlights would be an Avenger Tiger, Rancho, Talbot Tagora, Sunbeam Rapier H120 and a Sunbeam Lotus (moonstone blue). Great times. Their Christmas pantomimes were terrific!

Same here. Went back a bit further - e.g. we had a super snipe to Test at the Weekend. My father even tested the new brake system on a commer van in the Malvern Hills with us as a Family in the back. Ended up in a butchers shop window. Definate fail.

oldfiver · Nov 23, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
All good info, but as far as old fiver and CCC are concerned they only need the lease to be worth as much as the loan balance.

I think I said the security is only of any use if it at least has the same value as the outstanding loan ( plus outstanding interest )

So is the lease worth £20m as that is what "WASPS" in what ever guise are paying.

I personally do not think so but what do I know? I also said CCC should have some secondary guarantees if for no other reason should there be a default or £20m is too much then they should have cover. At present whats to stop WASPS drawing out everything from ACL and letting it drop if there are no guarantees?

No point saying if there is a default they get the lease back - they might as well let me have it on that basis!

Tonylinc · Nov 23, 2014

martcov said:
Same here. Went back a bit further - e.g. we had a super snipe to Test at the Weekend. My father even tested the new brake system on a commer van in the Malvern Hills with us as a Family in the back. Ended up in a butchers shop window. Definate fail.

Same as me. We had Hawks, Snipes and Maxis. Anyone remember the "fleet", sell offs? Some bargains there were there!

Rusty Trombone · Nov 23, 2014

oldfiver said:
I think I said the security is only of any use if it at least has the same value as the outstanding loan ( plus outstanding interest )

So is the lease worth £20m as that is what "WASPS" in what ever guise are paying.

I personally do not think so but what do I know? I also said CCC should have some secondary guarantees if for no other reason should there be a default or £20m is too much then they should have cover. At present whats to stop WASPS drawing out everything from ACL and letting it drop if there are no guarantees?

No point saying if there is a default they get the lease back - they might as well let me have it on that basis!

The loan was £14.4m in Jan 13, it seems all mentions of the loan are still the £14.4m, I'd have thought repayments would have been made over the last 20 months to reduce the capital owed, but anyway I'd have thought the lease is worth at least £14.4m, and I imagine experts with access to more relevant info than any of us have valued it, so try and relax.

Anyone lending £14m will probably have thought about getting some security in place. You'll need to explain your last sentance a bit, you seem to be suggesting getting the lease back isn't a form of security.

fernandopartridge · Nov 23, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
The loan was £14.4m in Jan 13, it seems all mentions of the loan are still the £14.4m, I'd have thought repayments would have been made over the last 20 months to reduce the capital owed, but anyway I'd have thought the lease is worth at least £14.4m, and I imagine experts with access to more relevant info than any of us have valued it, so try and relax.

Anyone lending £14m will probably have thought about getting some security in place. You'll need to explain your last sentance a bit, you seem to be suggesting getting the lease back isn't a form of security.

Getting the lease back doesn't repay the council's prudential borrowing, does it?

Rusty Trombone · Nov 23, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
Getting the lease back doesn't repay the council's prudential borrowing, does it?

No, but they would have a lease to sell.

oldfiver · Nov 23, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
No, but they would have a lease to sell.

You are missing the point - usually you sell something and pocket the money. Somebody else provides the funds eg a Bank or Finance House on commercial terms.

CCC is not a Bank of convenience to private companies/ hedge funds - or should not be.

CCC has handed over the Ricoh and their shares to be used as "WASPS" wish and not been paid for them

On that basis they could do a similar deal with any one - it doesnt matter as they can get the items back. What CCC should be doing is retrieving their £15m asap and putting it to better use

martcov · Nov 23, 2014

Tonylinc said:
Same as me. We had Hawks, Snipes and Maxis. Anyone remember the "fleet", sell offs? Some bargains there were there!

Yes. Horizon 12 Months old. Great deal. Ex roll car.

martcov · Nov 23, 2014

oldfiver said:
You are missing the point - usually you sell something and pocket the money. Somebody else provides the funds eg a Bank or Finance House on commercial terms.

CCC is not a Bank of convenience to private companies/ hedge funds - or should not be.

CCC has handed over the Ricoh and their shares to be used as "WASPS" wish and not been paid for them

On that basis they could do a similar deal with any one - it doesnt matter as they can get the items back. What CCC should be doing is retrieving their £15m asap and putting it to better use

as I understood it, the loan was from central government to CCC and then on to ACL - at a small profit. If it is now with Wasps and being paid back quicker than from ACL, then CCC has not used it's own capital and is making a small profit.Or have I misunderstood it?

fernandopartridge · Nov 23, 2014

martcov said:
as I understood it, the loan was from central government to CCC and then on to ACL - at a small profit. If it is now with Wasps and being paid back quicker than from ACL, then CCC has not used it's own capital and is making a small profit.Or have I misunderstood it?

The loan is from the financial markets. I don't know how many times I have to post it. Prudential borrowing was created by the labour government to allow local authorities to borrow privately.

Not sure about the small profit now. Given it is being shouted about I doubt it will materialise.

Rusty Trombone · Nov 23, 2014

oldfiver said:
You are missing the point - usually you sell something and pocket the money. Somebody else provides the funds eg a Bank or Finance House on commercial terms.

CCC is not a Bank of convenience to private companies/ hedge funds - or should not be.

CCC has handed over the Ricoh and their shares to be used as "WASPS" wish and not been paid for them

On that basis they could do a similar deal with any one - it doesnt matter as they can get the items back. What CCC should be doing is retrieving their £15m asap and putting it to better use

Can you just confirm that you're saying wasps haven't paid for the shares? What are you basing this on?

CCC borrowed the money, if it gets paid back they can pay back their loan, they can't just 'put it to better use'.

Grendel · Nov 23, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
Can you just confirm that you're saying wasps haven't paid for the shares? What are you basing this on?

CCC borrowed the money, if it gets paid back they can pay back their loan, they can't just 'put it to better use'.

Are you deliberately missing his point or are you really that thick?

letsallsingtogether · Nov 23, 2014

martcov said:
Yes. Horizon 12 Months old. Great deal. Ex roll car.

My second car was a metallic Sky Blue Talbot Horizon my sister had the Sunbeam loved those cars......

martcov · Nov 23, 2014

letsallsingtogether said:
My second car was a metallic Sky Blue Talbot Horizon my sister had the Sunbeam loved those cars......

Mine was metallic Bronze - late 70's colour.... Was great for me.

Nick · Nov 23, 2014

This sounds like an episode of Life on Mars!

letsallsingtogether · Nov 23, 2014

Nick said:
This sounds like an episode of Life on Mars!

Would be good to go back in time to warn all the City fans about the future.

Mind you would have locked you up for talking utter shit, saying that would never happen?:thinking about:

oldfiver · Nov 24, 2014

italiahorse said:
Love it how someone mentions 20,000 required by Wasps and people take it on board as fact.
Just like 23,000 was required for CCFC yet evidently (TF) we are now cash positive on 7,000.

Hopefully Sisu now know they won't get the Ricoh cheap and will piss off.

WASPS working on a match average per season of 20000 (paying) tickets and 1500 covers in the restaurant etc

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