italiahorse
Well-Known Member
I'd take that.
Wasps (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Citysince47
- Start date
I'd take that.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Now the deal is done why don't you do a freedom of information request ?
Or you can sit and mope and continue to moan.
Move on.
They still claiming Commercial Confidentiality !!
Perhaps he thinks he is going to the Butts?
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Surely that can only be for a limited amount of time ?
Now the deal is done on a public asset Wasps have nothing to loose from the CC agreement.
They are accountable to you as a ratepayer.
letsallsingtogether
Well-Known Member
Why is that?
I thought people wanted answers? fuck me we moan when Fisher, CCC and ACL don't want to talk now we moan when other parties do.
We really need them all in one room and then we can ask them the same questions see what answers they give when no side has anywhere to hide.
Maybe then we might actually see what the real answers are.
MichaelCCFC
New Member
sisu are proven liars and wasps are in full pr mode. If by "real answers" you mean honest ones e.g. wasps saying 'yeah, we're really screwing Cov RFC' or Joy saying 'I don't give a FF about the fans' then I'll be all ears, but lies, spin and pr are more likely
If you can attend the meeting on Monday - there is a line of questions you can ask him then!
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
I've put an FOI request in to CCC.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Don't agree with me Gent, that way lies disaster!
In truth I wasn't talking so much about the sale of the stadium which is done, gone, finished (although again I'll make the point that the deal offered to Wasps was never offered to CCFC, and when they did try to get it, it was declined by Higgs. As to whether it was a serious offer or not, that's a matter of opinion rather than fact. What would have happened had Higgs accepted?)
The point I'd make is that in any future negotiations that the owners of CCFC (be they SISU or someone else) make regarding the Ricoh, rent/buy/access income streams etc., there will be no prospect of CCFC fans influencing the landlord because it might be in the club or the city's best interest. Wasps won't really care about that. As a commercial organisation they're not subject to the same pressure as the council - no one votes for them for starters.
And that's really the point I'm making - it's impossible to spin Wasps taking over the Ricoh as being in CCFC's best interest. When SISU move on, Wasps will still be there. The council have washed their hands of the club. And the logic of Wasps reducing the rent to CCFC because their team is doing well is what I was challenging here, that simply makes no sense to me. Wasps will want the most they can get out of the club without breaking it, what landlord wouldn't.
albatross
Well-Known Member
I don't see how CCC can be accused of washing their hands with the club. The council cannot simply support CCFC with Tax Payers money that is illegal. CCFC are the same as WASPS a commercial organisation.
The relationship the club had with ACL when they returned to the RICOH exists unchanged. It is down to CCC to try to maximise the regeneration / businesses of the area and increasing footfall will help achieve that. It is down to CCFC to put in place a team that people want to see. If they are pushing for promotion they will get the crowds, if not then continued poverty with 8,000 watching every week.
I agree that WASPS will want more rent when / if CCFC go up the leagues but that would be true of any landlord given the revenues that a premier league club brings in. If you finish Bottom you still get £62,000,000 from the premier league. That is before sponsorship, tickets and cup runs. I think we need to encourage them to concentrate on that rather than raking over old ground
Nick
Administrator
Isn't it catch 22? How much would it cost to get us to the Premier League compared to income do you think?
It is all well and good saying chuck loads of money in and get us into more debt, but what happens long term?
rupert_bear
Well-Known Member
How much did it cost Southampton or Burnley ?
Nick
Administrator
Probably the same as Portsmouth
Were Southampton having to rely on ticket sales only from 8,000 fans when they were mid table in League One?
Don;t get me wrong, I would love as much as anybody else to get to the Premier League and if SISU put say 15 million in as one big gamble it could pay off. What if it doesn't and we were spending a lot more than we were taking every month? Back to square one?
albatross
Well-Known Member
Couple of points. If you believe its catch 22 then there is no way out other than starting again with no debt.
I am not necessarily advocating we simply chuck endless amounts of money at the situation because that is no guarantee of success. the actual of costs and interest charges to other SISU companies is where they need to start.
At this point the clubs is loss making so that are just trying to limit the cash flow out of the business. They need to have a proper plan that may include real incremental investment to improve our situation. Companies such as SISU are supposed to specialise in turning around distressed assets, well they've got one!.
They need to restructure the Debt with their own companies, do a debt for Equity swap otherwise they are just yanking our chains with no real intent of changing anything. They refused to PAY ACL will they be equally tough on their sister companies?
albatross
Well-Known Member
Probably the same as Portsmouth
Were Southampton having to rely on ticket sales only from 8,000 fans when they were mid table in League One?
Don;t get me wrong, I would love as much as anybody else to get to the Premier League and if SISU put say 15 million in as one big gamble it could pay off. What if it doesn't and we were spending a lot more than we were taking every month? Back to square one?
I think you got right to the heart of it. 8,000 paying supporters is not enough to change anything. Saw a WASPS fan say the same thing for them. So we need a Business or business man to invest. If they are not doing it for vanity then I would reasonably expect them to make a profit in the long term. I have no issues with that at all
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Probably the same as Portsmouth
Were Southampton having to rely on ticket sales only from 8,000 fans when they were mid table in League One?
Don;t get me wrong, I would love as much as anybody else to get to the Premier League and if SISU put say 15 million in as one big gamble it could pay off. What if it doesn't and we were spending a lot more than we were taking every month? Back to square one?
You've highlighted a problem with football generally and why it was such a bad idea for a hedge fund to get involved. Running at break even its very hard, if not impossible to get anywhere. We have some of the biggest crowds in the division yet are going nowhere fast. Admittedly we don't get the other revenues but if you compared total revenues of all L1 clubs I don't think we'd be too close to the bottom.
Similarly look at Portsmouth, despite being fan owned their budget actually allows for 7 figure losses and they have huge crowds by L2 standards but are struggling themselves.
The other route would be to build a team from the academy that can move us forward but that won't happen if they keep leaving!
We're told the PL is the promised land but is it really, sure there's loads more TV money but watching the match last night at Villa Park it hardly seemed a glowing advert for the premier league. Banks of empty seats and the atmosphere of a morgue.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Don't know about Burnley but it cost Southampton a lot of money £20m+. It cost leicester £125m to get to the PL.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Southampton have, according to the locals, wiped out the vast majority of their debt over the summer as all their players left and they didn't spend anywhere near as much as they got in. Of course at the start of the season the fans weren't happy as they didn't think enough had been spent and they'd be fighting relegation, not so many complaints now!
It's a gamble and unless there's radical change, and I don't think FFP is it, then it's going to stay like that. It's incredibly hard to operate successfully at break even when all your competitors are happy to lose millions.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The answer is to have absolute spending caps rather than proportional ones.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Yep agree with that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
letsallsingtogether
Well-Known Member
Never Empty Seats at another ground never.
Like a Morgue don't believe it?
That only happens at the Ricoh
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
That would be my solution, think something radical is needed but I'm not sure the EU wouldn't start interfering if spending caps were implemented.
I'd go for a spending cap and a spending floor for each division. If you can't / won't meet the spending floor you can't get promoted. I'd have a fixed squad size (similar to how the world cup) and the transfer window closing before the season starts and eliminate all fees for loan players. Would stop clubs hoarding players as there would be no advantage to it. Bring in greater revenue sharing across the divisions and you start to create a level playing field where most, if not all, teams have an equal chance of success.
I would also remove agents and have all clubs / players make a contribution to someone like the PFA who then act as the agent with those doing the job being salaried rather than on a %.
Of course it will never happen as the clubs making the most money at the moment will never agree to it.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
Yeah, .. brace yourself for 4 more years of SISU's master plan.
Superb post and Insight CD.
Just got to Eliminate Media power and get the Governing Bodies to formulate, then Implement that structure .
Might require Gov't Intervention ,I fear the free market and reluctance to Interfere In markets will prevent such as this happening ,Shame .
duffer
Well-Known Member
They've washed their hands of the club in that they no longer have any dealing with them. Surely that's incontrovertible. When CCC had a 50% share of ACL they had to deal with SISU/CCFC, and now they don't.
The rest of your post, is with all due respect a giant straw man - it has nothing to do with what I was saying and it's you that's raking up old ground here. Can you see anywhere I've suggested that either business should be supported with taxpayer money?
However, I'm glad that you acknowledge that it's now Wasps that control the rent, what's confusing is that anyone here thinks that Wasps will want to do CCFC a favour, especially on the basis that Wasps get bigger crowds than are expected. Of course, Wasps also now control completely CCFC's ultimate ability to play at the Ricoh. The one thing that CCC didn't do, even at the heart of the rent strike was turf CCFC out. Do you think Wasps would hesistate to do that if for some commercial reason it suited them? The council, of course, wouldn't be able to do anything about it now - because they've got no control of ACL. You might say that they've washed their hands of it!
As for increasing footfall by bringing in Wasps, what will be the net effect if CCFC or Wasps decide that the club is now better off elsewhere. Will that be for the good or bad of the City as a whole?
It's just that I tire of the suggestion that selling ACL to Wasps is of definite benefit to the city when it seems clear to me that what it actually does is put the business that could really generate substantial footfall and prestige to the local area, namely CCFC, at increased risk and more likely to actually move out of the city.
The Gentleman
Well-Known Member
I am sure that if Higgs said "ok Sisu, it's yours" then I am sure this is when we would have heard about the conditions they asked for not being met and therefore they are withdrawing their offer, which in my opinion is why they put them there to safeguard them against it being taken up because lets not forget they had 7 years to come up with that offer and they quickly hash something together. Sorry but I'm still not fooled by their bullshit, other might be but these leopards do not change their spots. How many times was it offered to Sisu/Otium to come and make an offer or at least come and talk about making an offer or even show some interest? I'm tired of hearing about why was this offer never put to CCFC, when it really boils down to it, the offer Sisu/Otium finally came up with was probably not a million miles away from the deal they walked away from before so people can lay blame at CCC or ACL's door but this would never have come to this if our current owners had done the right thing. All the fucking about, the lies, the deceit, the suing, the mud slinging and general being a bunch of cunts left ACL/CCC with little choice of looking for another tenant, sadly for us another sports team (because that's the only thing that could have come along to use the big green rectangle) saw an opportunity and businesses look out for a good deal and they got it.
As for whether Wasps being at the Ricoh is a good or bad thing for CCFC or the city I suppose only time will tell and I am sure there will be a few more twists and turns yet. However, from people I have spoke to that I know from Cov who aren't CCFC fans, they seem to be looking forward to going along to watch them and think it will be a good thing.
Wasps will want the most they can get from CCFC but I am sure they have heard all about our illustrious owners fucking antics and knee jerk reactions and will be mindful of the possibility of us leaving again for a short while or worse to build Legoland. So surely for that reason alone, Wasps wouldn't want to make the rent too high.
albatross
Well-Known Member
They've washed their hands of the club in that they no longer have any dealing with them. Surely that's incontrovertible. When CCC had a 50% share of ACL they had to deal with SISU/CCFC, and now they don't.
OK if were making a simple statement of fact that point taken.
However within the context of the thread and general debate the use of the term “washed Their Hands of the club” is entirely more emotive and would imply that CCC had a further duty of care to CCFC and their owners. This is what I cannot accept especially in the light that the CT are reporting that CCC have to find £24m in budget cuts next year. This will materially effect the lives of many in Coventry with over 1,000 people losing their jobs. That this the business of CCC not pandering to SISU and going toe to toe in court incurring significant direct costs and distracting them from what they should be doing.
The rest of your post, is with all due respect a giant straw man - it has nothing to do with what I was saying and it's you that's raking up old ground here. Can you see anywhere I've suggested that either business should be supported with taxpayer money?
Again point taken but in the same light as the point above I simply made a statement of fact. The contract with ACL for 4 years is unchanged and 8,000 crowds will probably not even preserve the status quo given the charges the club incurs from its owners in interest and consultancy.
However, I'm glad that you acknowledge that it's now Wasps that control the rent, what's confusing is that anyone here thinks that Wasps will want to do CCFC a favour, especially on the basis that Wasps get bigger crowds than are expected. Of course, Wasps also now control completely CCFC's ultimate ability to play at the Ricoh. The one thing that CCC didn't do, even at the heart of the rent strike was turf CCFC out. Do you think Wasps would hesistate to do that if for some commercial reason it suited them? The council, of course, wouldn't be able to do anything about it now - because they've got no control of ACL. You might say that they've washed their hands of it!
If ACL owned by CCC were still in place I would expect them to be duty bound to increase the Rent if they made the higher leagues. they have the right to expect a return on investment ... SISU certainly would
As for increasing footfall by bringing in Wasps, what will be the net effect if CCFC or Wasps decide that the club is now better off elsewhere. Will that be for the good or bad of the City as a whole?
Any additional events will increase footfall. With regards to anybody leaving, it would probably be the end of WASPS and the same for CCFC but only time will tell if that may happen. At this point both parties are committed to the area.
It's just that I tire of the suggestion that selling ACL to Wasps is of definite benefit to the city when it seems clear to me that what it actually does is put the business that could really generate substantial footfall and prestige to the local area, namely CCFC, at increased risk and more likely to actually move out of the city.
I suppose my point here is that CCC have other priorities at the moment. SISU could have easily made an offer at the Market Price any time over the last 7 Years. The Value of ACL will rise and fall depending on trading conditions. I don’t dispute that WASPS got a great deal but it was the market price at the time.
The record shows that SISU / CCFC seem to be doing a great job of continually reducing the footfall to the club despite being shown what the potential is (Chelsea, Crewe, Gillingham Wolves and Leeds).
Duffer I can see where you are coming from in the responses you have made to my posts in the past. I think I probably agree on 95% of things you say, Maybe I’m too blinkered by the wrongs that SISU have inflicted on the club and supporters to see it differently
OK if were making a simple statement of fact that point taken.
However within the context of the thread and general debate the use of the term “washed Their Hands of the club” is entirely more emotive and would imply that CCC had a further duty of care to CCFC and their owners. This is what I cannot accept especially in the light that the CT are reporting that CCC have to find £24m in budget cuts next year. This will materially effect the lives of many in Coventry with over 1,000 people losing their jobs. That this the business of CCC not pandering to SISU and going toe to toe in court incurring significant direct costs and distracting them from what they should be doing.
The rest of your post, is with all due respect a giant straw man - it has nothing to do with what I was saying and it's you that's raking up old ground here. Can you see anywhere I've suggested that either business should be supported with taxpayer money?
Again point taken but in the same light as the point above I simply made a statement of fact. The contract with ACL for 4 years is unchanged and 8,000 crowds will probably not even preserve the status quo given the charges the club incurs from its owners in interest and consultancy.
However, I'm glad that you acknowledge that it's now Wasps that control the rent, what's confusing is that anyone here thinks that Wasps will want to do CCFC a favour, especially on the basis that Wasps get bigger crowds than are expected. Of course, Wasps also now control completely CCFC's ultimate ability to play at the Ricoh. The one thing that CCC didn't do, even at the heart of the rent strike was turf CCFC out. Do you think Wasps would hesistate to do that if for some commercial reason it suited them? The council, of course, wouldn't be able to do anything about it now - because they've got no control of ACL. You might say that they've washed their hands of it!
If ACL owned by CCC were still in place I would expect them to be duty bound to increase the Rent if they made the higher leagues. they have the right to expect a return on investment ... SISU certainly would
As for increasing footfall by bringing in Wasps, what will be the net effect if CCFC or Wasps decide that the club is now better off elsewhere. Will that be for the good or bad of the City as a whole?
Any additional events will increase footfall. With regards to anybody leaving, it would probably be the end of WASPS and the same for CCFC but only time will tell if that may happen. At this point both parties are committed to the area.
It's just that I tire of the suggestion that selling ACL to Wasps is of definite benefit to the city when it seems clear to me that what it actually does is put the business that could really generate substantial footfall and prestige to the local area, namely CCFC, at increased risk and more likely to actually move out of the city.
I suppose my point here is that CCC have other priorities at the moment. SISU could have easily made an offer at the Market Price any time over the last 7 Years. The Value of ACL will rise and fall depending on trading conditions. I don’t dispute that WASPS got a great deal but it was the market price at the time.
The record shows that SISU / CCFC seem to be doing a great job of continually reducing the footfall to the club despite being shown what the potential is (Chelsea, Crewe, Gillingham Wolves and Leeds).
Duffer I can see where you are coming from in the responses you have made to my posts in the past. I think I probably agree on 95% of things you say, Maybe I’m too blinkered by the wrongs that SISU have inflicted on the club and supporters to see it differently
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duffer
Well-Known Member
Albatross - fair enough. I see where you're coming from here. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I don't think you're blinkered - your opinion is just as valid as mine.
To be clear I'm not in denial about SISU's failings, which are manifold. There's no doubt that a smarter, or at least less-abrasive owner would have had a much better chance of seeing us with at least some kind of stake in ACL. SISU's actions gave the council every excuse they needed to sell to Wasps, there's no denying that either. But I still don't accept that the sale was necessary or correct.
Regardless, like you I don't want to see a penny of taxpayer money, or a second of council time or effort going into supporting either Wasps or CCFC. Whatever deals or promotions there are for either club have to be on a commercial basis, and the council should leave them both to it now and get on with running the city and buggering about with the roads.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Disagree with the spending floor as it prevents fairytales of clubs like Eibar in Spain coming through the ranks on shoestring budgets, agree with the rest of it. The top clubs would fight it tooth and nail and they will never agree to it-the Football League might have a shot though.
Albatross - fair enough. I see where you're coming from here. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I don't think you're blinkered - your opinion is just as valid as mine.
To be clear I'm not in denial about SISU's failings, which are manifold. There's no doubt that a smarter, or at least less-abrasive owner would have had a much better chance of seeing us with at least some kind of stake in ACL. SISU's actions gave the council every excuse they needed to sell to Wasps, there's no denying that either. But I still don't accept that the sale was necessary or correct.
Regardless, like you I don't want to see a penny of taxpayer money, or a second of council time or effort going into supporting either Wasps or CCFC. Whatever deals or promotions there are for either club have to be on a commercial basis, and the council should leave them both to it now and get on with running the city and buggering about with the roads.
Some people on here have clearly not looked in to WASPS history and patronage and perhaps they should
Have we seen WASPS plan that was put to ( our? ) Council that facilitated the hurried deal?
Has any one heard that in fact WASPS have actually paid in full for their deal?
The reason for the hurried deal was because CCC thought they were heading into Court by the end of October and wanted to cut SISU off at the pass
There is a lot of PR hype being put about and being supported by CCC - but let us have facts
Lucas said they would not have agreed to the deal if it impacted on CCC and CRFC - how can she distance herself if she is to ensure that does not happen
So many questions and no answers
Nick
Administrator
Because people will swallow what she says
Because people will swallow what she says
And sadly they still vote her and cohorts back in power
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
The majority of Coventry voters don't care about CCFC.
A good proportion of CCFC fans don't even live in Coventry.