We can't afford to be a Championship club? (2 Viewers)

Astute · Aug 12, 2015

Grendel said:
Loans transferred into equity are.

You say evidence yet all you do is make random statements and try and say they are facts. Chief Dave and Osb have presented the facts which you ignore

Here is some facts for you. Our crowd in the last championship season averaged 15,000 and yet our turnover was one of the bottom 6. Our wage bill was consequently one of the lowest also.

Bournemouth with their 11,000 ground had a wage bill of £17 million.

In the premiere league the answer as to who would get the most money is impossible without knowing league positions. It's also irrelevant.

When you said that Bournemouth were an example of a small club doing well with a good manager you hadn't a clue the owner had banged £25 million into them did you? Just admit for once you got it wrong.

Random statements? Try reading what you have put. That is random.

So saying that their ground is 1/3 the size of ours so limiting their income is a random statement? It isn't. But it is something you struggle with. It is the truth.

So where did I say that Bournemouth did well as a small club because they had a good manager? He must have been decent to get them promoted. But I said a lot of it was to do with finding a good striker for not a lot of money that had some supporters saying it was a good move for their club to sell him.

And yes you answer a question with your normal irrelevant comment answer as you know you are wrong.

Why oh why have I been pulled into a stupid debate with someone who has nothing in life but trying to wind up people on the internet yet again?

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Aug 12, 2015

stupot07 said:
Southampton's wage bill was £29m that season.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

I know which is exactly my point on why you'd want to go in and out of the championship very quickly in the way they did. They would have probably got themselves into more trouble again if they got promoted out of L1 and then spent 4 or 5 years in the championship.

Chipfat · Aug 12, 2015

West brom have bulit one of the best acadamies and facilities out of promotion and relegation,, they had a plan to spend, work within the budget and push back up, they are now spending 12 million in transfers.. They planned and executed, nothing they have done is down to pure luck.. If they spent big its because they picked the right time and had the money to do it,, we could be here all day with examples for and against.. The main thing is without a plan to succeed off the field you will never succeed on it,, are we now turning the corner? With TM i see a plan, i hear a plan and all is pointing towards getting out of this league..

That feeling has only come with TM, its been said before by the club but this is the first time that i have felt invest in the manager and the future will be a brighter one for the club..

Specs WT-R75 · Aug 12, 2015

chiefdave said:
The whole system needs a big shake up. I'd get rid of agents and have it all done by the PFA, fixed squad sizes, salary floor and cap, no fees for loans, greater revenue sharing.

Something has to give at some point. The tipping point will be when Sky start losing subscribers as they've pushed the price up to high.

Rather than randomly fining teams that can afford it obscene amounts of money I think that exceeding certain limits should come with the cost of having to compensate the other teams in the league an appropriate amount that is enough to make you think twice before doing it... that way the Man City's of the world can still break the bank but the other clubs in the league share in the windfall. You could apply a similar penalty to the lower leagues...

Astute · Aug 12, 2015

torchomatic said:
Absolutely, that hits the nail on the head and the main reason our club is so hamstrung.

So how much income do you think that clubs like Bournemouth make off smaller crowds than ours Torch? How many people actually buy a pie or whatever? I very rarely do.

Shall we say 10% buy food or whatever during a game. So they would sell 1,000 items or so per game. The income of a couple of hundred supporters going to the game. Most grounds don't have all the things some make out.

I agree with the problem with money being thrown away by club owners though. But this has been limited. And like I have said a few times on this thread an astute manager will do better than an average manager with a massive pot.

hill83 · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
Random statements? Try reading what you have put. That is random.

So saying that their ground is 1/3 the size of ours so limiting their income is a random statement? It isn't. But it is something you struggle with. It is the truth.

So where did I say that Bournemouth did well as a small club because they had a good manager? He must have been decent to get them promoted. But I said a lot of it was to do with finding a good striker for not a lot of money that had some supporters saying it was a good move for their club to sell him.

And yes you answer a question with your normal irrelevant comment answer as you know you are wrong.

Why oh why have I been pulled into a stupid debate with someone who has nothing in life but trying to wind up people on the internet yet again?

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
So how much income do you think that clubs like Bournemouth make off smaller crowds than ours Torch? How many people actually buy a pie or whatever? I very rarely do.

Shall we say 10% buy food or whatever during a game. So they would sell 1,000 items or so per game. The income of a couple of hundred supporters going to the game. Most grounds don't have all the things some make out.

I agree with the problem with money being thrown away by club owners though. But this has been limited. And like I have said a few times on this thread an astute manager will do better than an average manager with a massive pot.

Bournemouth had a backer willing to bankroll the club, our owners have made it clear they will not do this. This means we have to find the income from elsewhere.

Astute · Aug 12, 2015

hill83 said:

So which one are you Hill?

Chipfat · Aug 12, 2015

""""Stoke invested massively in loans to get promoted didn't they? Wasn't there the Czech guy from Villa and Lee Hendrie as well?"""""

Again its not all about spending,, you are talking one player,, you have to have a team that works on the understanding of where the club is going.. You have to plan and if that means spending your budget on 1 players who nets 25 in a season that is a plan,, a good one? no , but a plan none the less.. Dont you see what TM has been saying since he came,, the club was a schambles and promotion into any didvision with the current state we would struggle.. He wants a format a structure, even a facility that allows him to sell the club to new recruits even u 12's..

FFS open your eyes,, we need it right off the field not owners that wash their hands and say its upto the fans, gates and ST sales... What is the owners plans, desire and thought process of sucess..And stop trying to muddy the waters with question s about budgets, fees and anything other than settling that planning is the only way any club deals with progress...

hill83 · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
So which one are you Hill?

On the left under my username.

Chipfat · Aug 12, 2015

Bournemouth had a backer who pulled the right man in and gave him the (plan).. Which would of also involved if we didn't get to our goal....

Grendel · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
So which one are you Hill?

You are make an absolute laughing stock of yourself.

Just stop.

Chipfat · Aug 12, 2015

Grendel said:
You are make an absolute laughing stock of yourself.

Just stop.

Misdirection,, answer some posts Gren,, i like a debate with you.. Not personal,, just opinions, if its different so be it...

Grendel · Aug 12, 2015

Chipfat said:
Misdirection,, answer some posts Gren,, i like a debate with you.. Not personal,, just opinions, if its different so be it...

Not at astute. Most posters including Osb agree with me but astute thinks we are idiots.

He knows best with his facts and detailed financial analysis.

I have addressed Stoke surely - I will address the other arguments in due course. At least they are rational and constructive.

torchomatic · Aug 12, 2015

You're not looking at it rationally, you're looking at everything in black and white. Their crowds are smaller than ours on occasion - our have very rarely been over 11K in recent times but how much do they pay for their tickets and season tickets compared to our cheap tickets - which we as fans want, don't we?

As for F&B. They get a percentage whilst we get a percentage of a percentage...

Astute said:
So how much income do you think that clubs like Bournemouth make off smaller crowds than ours Torch? How many people actually buy a pie or whatever? I very rarely do.

Shall we say 10% buy food or whatever during a game. So they would sell 1,000 items or so per game. The income of a couple of hundred supporters going to the game. Most grounds don't have all the things some make out.

I agree with the problem with money being thrown away by club owners though. But this has been limited. And like I have said a few times on this thread an astute manager will do better than an average manager with a massive pot.

Skyblueweeman · Aug 12, 2015

stupot07 said:
Southampton's wage bill was £29m that season.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

And they had an owner that pumped in millions...

Limey · Aug 12, 2015

I think that the Championship would be the 'top of the business cycle' for SISU and they'd be looking to sell on. There's no way they'd put in money for a stab at promotion these days (more money is required now than when they took over). When are they going to get a better return????

Then, who knows what would happen...

letsallsingtogether · Aug 12, 2015

torchomatic said:
Are they? Who are the fans who are "happy" in League One then?

Torch read the replies in this thread.
All we get are excusses for why we can't succeed.
People need to stop making excuses for our awful none committed owners.
We need to own our own ground
We need pie money
We need fans to turn up
We need 52 weeks a year income

We need We need!!
Well there is only one party involved in this sorry state of affairs who can do anything about it?

I know I hate these owners but I will give them credit when it is due.
Up to now they have done little to make me do that.

hill83 · Aug 12, 2015

letsallsingtogether said:
Torch read the replies in this thread.
All we get are excusses for why we can't succeed.
People need to stop making excuses for our awful none committed owners.
We need to own our own ground
We need pie money
We need fans to turn up
We need 52 weeks a year income

We need We need!!
Well there is only one party involved in this sorry state of affairs who can do anything about it?

I know I hate these owners but I will give them credit when it is due.
Up to now they have done little to make me do that.

That doesn't mean people are happy in league 1 though does it? Ha ha

letsallsingtogether · Aug 12, 2015

stupot07 said:
NO ONE WANTS TO STAY IN THIS SHIT LEAGUE.

However, we have to accept that when we get promoted, we are likely to be in for a bit of a struggle.

The last point is just odd.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

So what is odd about the last comment?
The longer we stay I this league the more fans we will lose the more fans we lose the less money we will get in simple really.
As for struggling if we get promoted isn't that what we have been doing in this league.
I know what league I would sooner struggle in.
League 1 isn't it.
PUSB

letsallsingtogether · Aug 12, 2015

hill83 said:
That doesn't mean people are happy in league 1 though does it? Ha ha

Maybe not but they are willing to put up with it ha ha

stupot07 · Aug 12, 2015

letsallsingtogether said:
So what is odd about the last comment?

letsallsingtogether said:
Sorry but mediocre football will end up killing this club.

1) the club won't be killed.
2) only 4 teams can play in the champions league, only 20 in the PL if mediocrity kills clubs why are there 72 football league clubs and a massive none league scene?

To say it will kill the club is pretty odd comment.

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Astute · Aug 12, 2015

Grendel said:
Not at astute. Most posters including Osb agree with me but astute thinks we are idiots.

He knows best with his facts and detailed financial analysis.

I have addressed Stoke surely - I will address the other arguments in due course. At least they are rational and constructive.

Try reading again what OSB said. And if you can read and understand you will see that you are wrong again as usual.

stupot07 · Aug 12, 2015

letsallsingtogether said:
Maybe not but they are willing to put up with it ha ha

How do you work that out?

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Astute · Aug 12, 2015

Skyblueweeman said:
And they had an owner that pumped in millions...

So did we........

Astute · Aug 12, 2015

Grendel said:
You are make an absolute laughing stock of yourself.

Just stop.

Laughing stock?

I would reserve that for someone that tries to make out that SISU lost the JR on purpose. Or someone that thought that Leon Clarke wouldn't score many goals this season.

Grendel · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
Try reading again what OSB said. And if you can read and understand you will see that you are wrong again as usual.

I'm really thick Astute. Can you please explain his post to me. What does it say to you?

Grendel · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
Laughing stock?

I would reserve that for someone that tries to make out that SISU lost the JR on purpose. Or someone that thought that Leon Clarke wouldn't score many goals this season.

Well I did point out that cups are easy to score in and he hasn't really scored an actual goal in the league has he?

But you are right - your financial wizardry and intellect defeats me, chief Dave, torch, OSB, Hill and everyone else on this thread who thinks you are clueless about Bournemouth and their finances.

We all bow down to astute - by name and nature.

Astute · Aug 12, 2015

Grendel said:
I'm really thick Astute.

Sadly we already knew. And I am not wasting any more time on you.

Astute · Aug 12, 2015

Grendel said:
Well I did point out that cups are easy to score in and he hasn't really scored an actual goal in the league has he?

But you are right - your financial wizardry and intellect defeats me, chief Dave, torch, OSB, Hill and everyone else on this thread who thinks you are clueless about Bournemouth and their finances.

We all bow down to astute - by name and nature.

For the last time tonight....it wasn't a lower club like you were worried about. If cup games are easy to score in why was our game 1-1 after 2 hours?

And I can see that you cannot understand what OSB said.

hill83 · Aug 12, 2015

Edit: double post

hill83 · Aug 12, 2015

I've read what OSB has written several times, and unless I'm losing the plot I can only assume you are on a wind up Astute. What are you deducing from his post that I'm not seeing?

Maybe I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

Astute · Aug 12, 2015

hill83 said:
I've read what OSB has written several times, and unless I'm losing the plot I can only assume you are on a wind up Astute. What are you deducing from his post that I'm not seeing?

Maybe I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

oldskyblue58 said:
Its not as simple as all turnover counts. Some of the turnover has the direct costs relating to it deducted before it counts. So for example the shop turnover that counts might only be the gross profit on sales after deduction of purchases and wages. Still likely to be higher than taking a share of commission though.

According to the details I got from the FL the rules on income are general not cast in stone, and are agreed by negotiation with each club. Good old FL discretion again.

The thinking behind outsourcing the progs and shop I would guess is that it cuts down the cashflow costs and the risks (ie staffing, rents, stockholding etc). The trade off is that the club gets lower cashflow income and control.

Whilst we do miss out on a bigger share of some incomes what a successful team would bring would be bigger TV revenues, team & merchandise sponsorship/sales and prize money none of which are not dependent on the Ricoh and all of which would count to the SCMP calculation. Whilst F&B is desirable it isn't the only thing to make a difference, but we always seem to focus on it. F&B will be an income that is used in SCMP after deduction of direct costs

Is there anything to stop CCFC block booking the lounges from now on and putting pressure on the sales side of the business to actually sell rather than cutting back on cost and pleading its all someone else's fault? Use the capacity to drive sales especially whilst there is some positivity take a calculated risk. I would guess that the financial control at present is quite risk averse. There is perhaps the start of some momentum finally - exploit it, keep it rolling.

oldskyblue58 said:
You might hope that what the club have rights to in terms of occupancy was detailed clearly in the contract they signed.

Also you would have to query which of the events that stops usage of the lounges were booked before the club returned to the Ricoh. For instance the Insomnia gaming festival was signed up before the CCFC return and I believe was a 5 year deal. They must have been aware of that and its likely effect before the return - if not they should have been

Yes other clubs might get other incomes but they also get other costs not only in respect of stadium operation but also directly related to the other incomes. It is not as simple as saying we get that income they get that income aren't we hard done by...... you need in terms of being able to finance success to look at both sides of the equation

Presently the stadium cost (excluding stewards) would appear to be 1/23 x 100000 rent = £4348 per match and on Saturday the club must have taken in excess of £100,000. Compare that with other teams who must bare the full cost of stadium & pitch maintenance/upkeep (likely to be well north of £100k pa) and average say 6000 fans or £60,000 per match.

If the reduction in costs is greater than the rights to income not obtained then which is the more important?

The turnover sets the SCMP budget yes (but even that is not the full business budget and doesn't include all players), ........ it is the level of positive cash flow that finances any potential for success on the pitch. Especially if the club is to be self sufficient

That is not to say turnover is not important, that it shouldn't be maximised and the club should not have more in an ideal world

oldskyblue58 said:
The club do not have to give details of the finances until accounts are published. They are not wrong that an increase of income from any source would not be useful. There is an SCMP budget that is affected by various incomes. They appear to have cut costs and put savings in to financing the squad, although the level of finance going in to the playing side seems to have reduced year by year. Think they are choosing what comments to make and how - but what business wouldn't. They are absolutely right that match day income is vital.

Up to us not to take things at face value, and to try to look behind at the whole picture not just the pixels we are pointed at.

Not smoke and mirrors as such more a managed PR (which any business would do)

What comes out or doesn't come out of the club at the moment I have no real problem with to be fair. Aside from CCFC having to be self sufficient then the objectives of the owners have not changed nor would I expect them to. The owners are saying little about their actions or future plans for the club (stadium or otherwise).

To be honest its good we are all concentrating on the team for a while - I think everyone is feeling the benefit of that

All on the Wigan thread today.

hill83 · Aug 12, 2015

Astute said:
All on the Wigan thread today.

I'll read that later. Didn't realise we were thread hopping.

stupot07 · Aug 12, 2015

hill83 said:
I'll read that later. Didn't realise we were thread hopping.

It's also worth reading theses too. Everyone seems hung up on F&B's but there is a lot more revenues we're missing out on. I don't think OSB got my point about matchday costs - I meant that we would be contributing to general wear and tear and upkeep of the pitch as part of the matchday costs we pay on top of rent so will contribute towards the new pitch even if we didn pay an upfront fee for it.

stupot07 said:
I think you're being a tad unfair there OSB. We also pay matchday costs, we don't get 100% profits on F&B's (I'd be surprised with the compass contract of ours isn't the smallest profit margin in football by some distance), we don't get 100% parking, we only get limited pitchside advertising which has to be removable, we can't ad/sell more advertising around the stands (e.g those on the balcony on the main stand will be paying wasps), we can't sell stand sponsorship, ground sponsorship, advertising boards around the outside of the ground, don't get 100% parking, don't get additional 365 revenues from selling meetin/function room. A lot of lower league teams rent their pitch to PL U21/reserve sides, a bigger ground and higher attendances mean higher steward/turnstile/police/ambulance costs. And that's just around matchday. Then you have to balance ticket prices, we have the third lowest ST's in the league so that will impact - for example me, my grandad and 2 boys cost average £5.38 (inc vat) per match,

I agree with the turnover vs useable revenue argument, but we also likely as a more established league club to have more medical staff, etc, we also have a cat 2 academy (£500k pa), I don't imagine many in league one will have? The like you said we're on a commission base for shop and programmes - lower risk but lower income, etc.

We're fine in this league, our fan base should bring enough revenue in to be competitive, but it does fall down in the championship, people focus too much on beer & burgers and not on the whole plethora of extra incomes.

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oldskyblue58 said:
Just trying to keep it simple stupot07 But All fair points

The margin wont be great on the F&B no but there are no cashflow costs/risks to it either. No we cant sell ground/ stand sponsorship and fixed advertising as it stands no but then again we don't have the associated costs of 365 day ground upkeep either.

Don't all teams have match day costs - wasn't sure whether or not CCFC paid these in addition to rent or not. But match day costs are not exclusive to CCFC. Did we contribute to the new pitch going down for instance - other teams would have to bear the cost themselves 100%. Also we restrict match day costs by not using all the ground.

The club chose the ticket prices they did not need to be £249 and third cheapest. I still reckon that they will have taken over £100k net of VAT last Saturday not many teams in L1 are going to match that

Could they hire space to put on those conferences/meetings etc? There are options to generate turnover and the club have accepted on things like Shop & progs that a smaller margin/net profit is acceptable if it suits

Do we know that CCFC are prevented from using some of the advertising or even sponsorship options or is it they don't want or haven't got the cashflow to pay for the right to do it instead choosing to put cashflow in to the team instead

There are ways that even CCFC could generate additional turnovers. Not all teams have the same income streams or have the ability to have all those streams

For fans appetite whilst we are in L1 then we are pointed towards the need for turnover, and yet all the set up and other information indicates that it is cashflow that is important to the club and that the club is prepared to sacrifice some turnover to achieve positive cashflow and lower cost risk

The point is it is not as simple as some make it out to be. On some things we miss out when compared to others, on others we choose not to do, but on some things relating to Turnover we are in a better position than most. That works on the costs as well

Do we maximise what we have or can get?

The problem is unless we had access to every clubs operating costs and revenues it's very difficult to estimate how much worse off we really are. We do know however that the last time we see in the championship our turnover was in the bottom 4 despite having midtable attendances, and our turnover that season was only £700k more than Bournemouths in 13/14 despite having 6k more attendance. It's been holding us back for years.

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We can't afford to be a Championship club? (2 Viewers)

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