What’s it all about? (2 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s about the whole shebang. Should a school play along? I’m saying that when a request for social transition can be a sign of numerous mental health comorbidities it’s a safeguarding issue that must be raised with parents.

I’m also saying that all the available data (and admittedly there’s not much) shows that social transition lessens the chances of dysphoric feelings resolving naturally. As such it’s not a neutral act to go along with a kids request to be treated as the opposite sex. It’s a bit more than James wanting to be called Jimmy now. It’s closer to James wanting to be called Switchblade or NoScope36069. Some teachers would just go along, but I’m not sure teachers who refuse should be punished. Neither should they for James to Jimmy, but they’re more of a dick.

My view is that given how poorly we understand this as a society, being supportive without being irreversible seems the best approach. We did after all for most of history treat homosexuality as a mental illness, as something that had to be repressed and even met with physical punishment. Some countries of the world still agree even with that and not long ago Thatcher introduced homophobic legislation into schools.

So applying the lessons learned from that is the place to start for me. If an overwhelming body of evidence emerges and suggests we need to do something different then of course go for it.

 

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[shmmeee]

Despite the rhetoric you hear from the sabre waivers at the Daily Mail, this would just not take place in a school. You would have risk assessments in place for the individual and others to protect everyone, so it just couldn’t occur. If they ignored these measures and did it I think you’d be looking at a PX.

You say this but my daughters school has it (my daughter isn’t happy about it) and last year they made all toilets gender neutral as a nod to this issue, a decision they had to partially row back because of the trouble it caused for the girls in particular.

That’s my issue. Constantly told “oh it’s nothing really” while the laws are changed, my daughter is impacted (my daughter BTW who was told she had to play netball and not basketball like she wanted because she’s a girl. In 2023! Yet Darren can say he’s Karen and that’s fine. How is that progress? ), and the rhetoric from activists is completely different.

Meanwhile any time you raise complaints a bunch of people call you a bigot and refuse to answer any of your basic questions about their ideology which they’d like the world reorganised around. And in all this culture warring, actual kids with gender dysphoria (as I was) get pushed to the back of the queue by a bunch of TiKTok raised teenagers who just fancy wearing makeup or a tie and policy gets put in place that seems to actively harm said kids. And none of the people pushing this policy seem to understand word one of what they’re saying!

/rant

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I know I haven’t got a huge data sample to refer to, but I haven’t come across a student that has asked to identify as the other main gender, I’ve only come across students that have become non-binary and used they/them pronouns with different names.
What about other teachers?

In my time as a teacher, I would say about 10. Mostly boys wanting to identify as girls

 

[shmmeee]

I know I haven’t got a huge data sample to refer to, but I haven’t come across a student that has asked to identify as the other main gender, I’ve only come across students that have become non-binary and used they/them pronouns with different names.
What about other teachers?

My daughter has a non-binary teacher. She thinks he’s the most self obsessed weirdo going. And she’s right.

Non-binary is the most ridiculous and selfish one of them all. Every fucker is non-binary, you’re not special cos you got an androgynous haircut and some bad glasses.

In reality though as long as “non-binary” Darren goes to the boys and “non-binary” Karen goes to the girls, it really isn’t much more impactful on day to day life than a fervent vegan.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

My daughter has a non-binary teacher. She thinks he’s the most self obsessed weirdo going. And she’s right.

Non-binary is the most ridiculous and selfish one of them all. Every fucker is non-binary, you’re not special cos you got an androgynous haircut and some bad glasses.

In reality though as long as “non-binary” Darren goes to the boys and “non-binary” Karen goes to the girls, it really isn’t much more impactful on day to day life than a fervent vegan.

I was taught by David, now Debbie Hayton

 

[shmmeee]

In my time as a teacher, I would say about 10. Mostly boys wanting to identify as girls

I taught one, a non-verbal autistic girl who wanted to be a boy and we had to hand edit pronouns in SIMS reports cos it was 2014. She had another trans boy friend in the school I didn’t teach.

I stopped teaching in 2017 though.

 

[Grendel]

I know I haven’t got a huge data sample to refer to, but I haven’t come across a student that has asked to identify as the other main gender, I’ve only come across students that have become non-binary and used they/them pronouns with different names.
What about other teachers?

Well I do know of two children who now identify as male

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I taught one, a non-verbal autistic girl who wanted to be a boy and we had to hand edit pronouns in SIMS reports cos it was 2014. She had another trans boy friend in the school I didn’t teach.

I stopped teaching in 2017 though.

Around when I started. And to be honest if you expressed your current views in a staff office now, you’d be dismissed or given a final warning. That is one thing that has dramatically changed in recent years and has caught a lot of my colleagues out-so the effect is for teachers to avoid discussing anything outside the curriculum so they don’t get in trouble.

 

[shmmeee]

I was taught by David, now Debbie Hayton

I’ve chatted to her a bit on Twitter. My driving examiner was trans in 1998. I worked with a similarly aged trans woman at my last job.

I think there’s a difference between “old school” transsexuals like the above and post 2012 tumblr inspired transgender people and I’m not sure the aims of the two align.

 

[Grendel]

I was taught by David, now Debbie Hayton

Probably not a good example to support your argument

 

[Grendel]

I’ve chatted to her a bit on Twitter. My driving examiner was trans in 1998. I worked with a similarly aged trans woman at my last job.

I think there’s a difference between “old school” transsexuals like the above and post 2012 tumblr inspired transgender people and I’m not sure the aims of the two align.

Which is pretty much where I am on this

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Probably not a good example to support your argument

I’m well aware of her views.

 

[shmmeee]

Around when I started. And to be honest if you expressed your current views in a staff office now, you’d be dismissed or given a final warning. That is one thing that has dramatically changed in recent years and has caught a lot of my colleagues out-so the effect is for teachers to avoid discussing anything outside the curriculum so they don’t get in trouble.

Oh 100%. TBH now I’ve gone from startup to corporate I probably need to reign things in again. But I’d never say what I thought on main if I still taught. Aside from anything else my socials would be found in seconds by the kids and it would be all over and likely make any trans kids I taught uncomfortable, which is fair enough.

 

[Nick]

When my daughter was about 5 there was a boy in her class who was pretty much being forced to be a girl by his mum.

Long hair, nail varnish, the lot. They also had a vegan dog.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Oh 100%. TBH now I’ve gone from startup to corporate I probably need to reign things in again. But I’d never say what I thought on main if I still taught. Aside from anything else my socials would be found in seconds by the kids and it would be all over and likely make any trans kids I taught uncomfortable, which is fair enough.

I took it as a badge of honour that my students admitted they could never find mine despite them having found the rest of my colleagues. Will be nice to make them public again next month

 

[Ian1779]

You say this but my daughters school has it (my daughter isn’t happy about it) and last year they made all toilets gender neutral as a nod to this issue, a decision they had to partially row back because of the trouble it caused for the girls in particular.

That’s my issue. Constantly told “oh it’s nothing really” while the laws are changed, my daughter is impacted (my daughter BTW who was told she had to play netball and not basketball like she wanted because she’s a girl. In 2023! Yet Darren can say he’s Karen and that’s fine. How is that progress? ), and the rhetoric from activists is completely different.

Meanwhile any time you raise complaints a bunch of people call you a bigot and refuse to answer any of your basic questions about their ideology which they’d like the world reorganised around. And in all this culture warring, actual kids with gender dysphoria (as I was) get pushed to the back of the queue by a bunch of TiKTok raised teenagers who just fancy wearing makeup or a tie and policy gets put in place that seems to actively harm said kids. And none of the people pushing this policy seem to understand word one of what they’re saying!

/rant

My school went to single cubicle toilets with open sink areas last year to eradicate bullying and contraband in enclosed toilet spaces. In the main it has worked. The ‘inclusive’ toilets are still available but they are separate and essentially disabled toilets with additonal signage. I think this is a sensible approach but maybe it’s in the semantics I don’t know.

I understand what you are saying in your other points, I am no expert in this field and we have only been given relatively minimal guidance on what to do. It does feel that the space to ask questions and debate is narrowed and unavailable, but I also feel that this is fuelled by the intolerant rhetoric from written media and government too (remember the school that a Tory MP reported to OFSTED that turned out to be a false story) and also combines issues like gender identity and safe spaces as a single issue when they are clearly separate with their own individual issues.

I don’t know what the solution is, but I think we need to provide the platform to ask questions and discuss openly without it being weaponised.

 

[Ian1779]

Well I do know of two children who now identify as male

Are they still in school?

 

[Grendel]

Are they still in school?

Yes they are

 

[Ian1779]

In reality though as long as “non-binary” Darren goes to the boys and “non-binary” Karen goes to the girls, it really isn’t much more impactful on day to day life than a fervent vegan.

I’m of the opinion that you can identify as you like and we should support that, but if you do you forego the right to access gender specific changing areas/toilets once you do. It’s not an unreasonable expectation or condition given the support provided to make ‘them’ feel safe, and risk assessments are implemented and adhered to for all.

 

[Ian1779]

Yes they are

Would you say the school manage it appropriately?

 

[shmmeee]

I’m of the opinion that you can identify as you like and we should support that, but if you do you forego the right to access gender specific changing areas/toilets once you do. It’s not an unreasonable expectation or condition given the support provided to make ‘them’ feel safe, and risk assessments are implemented and adhered to for all.

Yeah I mean I can get a bit OTT with the wider picture here as a former dysphoric who was raised by a second wave feminist and a rationalist I have a certain viewpoint obviously.

I have no issues with treating people how they want to be treated, but that’s just a personal contract between two humans. Once we start codifying that’s politeness into law and procedures then IMO it has to pass a higher bar than just “is this nice?”

The wider picture is what’s the impact on women and girls of organising around “gender” rather than sex, and what’s the best treatment for GD. And those are Pandora’s boxes. So while we wait to sort out the philosophical and psychological equivalent of Israel Palestine, let’s chill on making too many changes, huh?

 

[Grendel]

Would you say the school manage it appropriately?

I honestly have no idea. They seem pretty OK in themselves -- I personally think they will not remain as such when older.

I knew one non binary person a fair few years ago in school - don't know what became of them

There is also someone who I believe has now transitioned who while at school adopted no change to their identity at all and remained male until they left

 

[Nick]

I’m of the opinion that you can identify as you like

In which case I can be a 90's rapper?

 

[shmmeee]

I will say I’m glad I’m not the parent of a kid with GD these days. It’s a real life trolley problem where there seems to be an 70-80% chance everything will be fine long term but short term will be horrible, and a 20-30% chance they’ll go through life with a body that causes them serious psychological distress. If you do nothing and GD persists and is unmanageable in adulthood then it’s hard to effectively transition (for males). If you affirm their gender and it turns out that wasn’t the right pathway you’ve equally fucked then for life.

Absolutely horrible choice to have to make.

 

[Ian1779]

I honestly have no idea. They seem pretty OK in themselves -- I personally think they will not remain as such when older.

I knew one non binary person a fair few years ago in school - don't know what became of them

There is also someone who I believe has now transitioned who while at school adopted no change to their identity at all and remained male until they left

I haven’t seen much in the way of bullying in this area, lot of other kids seem generally non-plussed about it.

That is a worry, kids can be horrible to each at the best of times.

 

[Ian1779]

In which case I can be a 90's rapper?

TU-CRAP?

 

[shmmeee]

TU-CRAP?

TU-FOOT

 

[Grendel]

I have just realised why I had Cilla Black in my head regarding this thread

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

In which case I can be a 90's rapper?

 

[skybluetony176]

In which case I can be a 90's rapper?

Nick be like

 

[Otis]

Again, where does it end?

Maybe teachers should be putting a litter tray in the corner for any pupil who says they identify as a cat and not be letting them go to the normal toilets.

 

[covcity4life]

I've only been teaching a few years in Brum and I don't wanna come across as saddle brains but my honest opinion is that 60-70 percent of the kids diagnose themselves with autism, anxiety or depression. I feel like gender issues is just another thing for most of them that they decide they have because they see it online or bombarded with it at school.

Mental health is real. But alot of these kids that say they have it do not. I didn't hear these words when I was a kid and maybe that's why I was happy at school?

NOW I'm not saying mental health isn't real because I know how real it is trust me but still doesn't mean everyone has it.

 

[Grendel]

I've only been teaching a few years in Brum and I don't wanna come across as saddle brains but my honest opinion is that 60-70 percent of the kids diagnose themselves with autism, anxiety or depression. I feel like gender issues is just another thing for most of them that they decide they have because they see it online or bombarded with it at school.

Mental health is real. But alot of these kids that say they have it do not. I didn't hear these words when I was a kid and maybe that's why I was happy at school?

NOW I'm not saying mental health isn't real because I know how real it is trust me but still doesn't mean everyone has it.

Most kids "identifying" are doing it through some cult like behaviour

In my experience people who genuinely are ultimately believing they are in the wrong body do not display the attention seeking behaviours, do not feel the need to share a changing space with a woman are more concerned about a lot of other issues than how someone addresses them etc

I find the whole thing pretty annoying tbh as it trivialises what is for a tiny fraction of people a difficult and depressing issue

 

[oscillatewildly]

I think coffee’s disgusting regardless of whatever they put on the front of the shop.

Try taking it without sugar.

 

[shmmeee]

I've only been teaching a few years in Brum and I don't wanna come across as saddle brains but my honest opinion is that 60-70 percent of the kids diagnose themselves with autism, anxiety or depression. I feel like gender issues is just another thing for most of them that they decide they have because they see it online or bombarded with it at school.

Mental health is real. But alot of these kids that say they have it do not. I didn't hear these words when I was a kid and maybe that's why I was happy at school?

NOW I'm not saying mental health isn't real because I know how real it is trust me but still doesn't mean everyone has it.

Mental health is real. Schools have no idea how to deal with it. Especially building resilience.