With the Thorn comment 'We've picked up quite a few injuries' (1 Viewer)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

For that matter, Brighton, you could add in Hreidarsson at 37 with 561 games, or Platt at 34 and - believe it or not 617 games. That's why there's no point in averaging the stats, as Hermon's influence compared to his 4 games for us skew things in a disproportional fashion.

What is clear is that they have had the luxury of using, or having to use 3 young and/or inexperienced players; whereas we are already into double figures - and will probably increase that this evening; and that the balance of their squad command a decent level of experience.

They are also at the right age, and it's well known that knocks primarily effect the older player, and confidence the younger player. So, they've actually used - therefore - less players than we have, hence my claim that they are more settled

Point is MMM you're using number of league games played to imply that their squad carries more experience and is hence better placed to succeed. The majority of our squad, believe it or not, are 23 or older and are not in playgroup as you're attempting to imply. The core of our squad is actually good, it's just that the core is all we have to rely on and we are propping it up with the likes of Willis and Daniels this evening.

 

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[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

take for example wigan last night, your argument went out the window , a team selling players and not spending much win there and looked more then comfiortable through large parts of the game

manager like Martinez worked mircales past 2 seasons , it can be done with a manager who knows what hes doing

Is that Wigan who are 2 places above the relegation zone, and only 5 points ahead of Bolton who have two games in hand? Whilst I agree that Martinez is an expectational talent, there would be Wigan fans who would be looking over their shoulders right now; so whilst I agree last night's performance was magnificent, over the course of the season, questions could doubtless be asked by some.

That stated, Martinez is a great, over-performing manager. He does cheat the odds - hence him being in demand. But I asked you a question last night that you decided to ignore. So I'll ask it again.

Do you have a right to expect your manager to over-achieve?

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

Bleeding hell. No - it doesn't move from money to age. Can you not see that these experienced players would want more money than the inexperienced players I've listed? Why do you think we're using 18 year-old kids, as opposed to buying - even for a nominal fee - a player like Baker when we'd sign him, who'd command a fee and a higher salary!?!

anyone would think were the only club who sell

you tend to forget players in your arugment like

Bell
Baker
Clingan
McSheffrey
Wood
Deegan
McDonald
Platt
Craine
Keogh
Murphy

theres 11 players there all with plenty of expereince who weve paid money for and the vast majority thorn recommended

 

[Macca]

If everyone agrees to never speak ill of thorn again will you promise to let it go? I think it's a sacrifice worth making. Besides he is my man entirely for next year in div 3

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Point is MMM you're using number of league games played to imply that their squad carries more experience and is hence better placed to succeed. The majority of our squad, believe it or not, are 23 or older and are not in playgroup as you're attempting to imply. The core of our squad is actually good, it's just that the core is all we have to rely on and we are propping it up with the likes of Willis and Daniels this evening.

Okay Brighton, these are our squad players aged over 23

Murphy, no problems
Dunn, inexperienced and unproven at this level
Keogh, no problem
Hreidersson, out for the season
Cranie, no problem
Wood, out for the season
Clingan, no problem
Bell, injured
Baker, injured
McSheffrey, no problem
McDonald, no problem
Platt, no problem

There are 7 players there aged over 23 who I can put a ‘no problem’ next to. This ignores form. Is it still, honestly, ‘good’?

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

If everyone agrees to never speak ill of thorn again will you promise to let it go? I think it's a sacrifice worth making. Besides he is my man entirely for next year in div 3

About as sensible and constructive a comment as - "if everyone agrees to never speak ill of SISU again will you promise to let it go?"

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

Is that Wigan who are 2 places above the relegation zone, and only 5 points ahead of Bolton who have two games in hand? Whilst I agree that Martinez is an expectational talent, there would be Wigan fans who would be looking over their shoulders right now; so whilst I agree last night's performance was magnificent, over the course of the season, questions could doubtless be asked by some.

That stated, Martinez is a great, over-performing manager. He does cheat the odds - hence him being in demand. But I asked you a question last night that you decided to ignore. So I'll ask it again.

Do you have a right to expect your manager to over-achieve?

id love cov to be 5 points clear of relegation at this stage of the season , instead of 4 points off with 3 to play

i expect my manager to be doing better than his record suggests

our crop of players on paper should not be bottom 3 i honestly believe that

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

anyone would think were the only club who sell

Okay Mumford, I note you're still dodging my questions, but I'll try another.

Sure, some clubs have sold. Vas Te, Maynard, etc.

I'll go with this one again. In the last season, we have lost King, Turner, Jutkiewitz, Gunnarsson and Westwood, and let McPake, Eastwood and ROD go out on loan. Name me one club that's had even close to that migration.

I'm waiting

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

id love cov to be 5 points clear of relegation at this stage of the season , instead of 4 points off with 3 to play

i expect my manager to be doing better than his record suggests

our crop of players on paper should not be bottom 3 i honestly believe that

But how, please, please tell me how. If the playing squad is funded in the bottom three of the division, what right do you have to expect - and I use the word 'expect' here - but what right do you have to expect your manager to cheat the odds and produce a performance others can't.

I simply and honestly can't understand

 

[Macca]

About as sensible and constructive a comment as - "if everyone agrees to never speak ill of SISU again will you promise to let it go?"

Never claimed it as sensible or constructive?? Just fed up of the subject until someone comes up with a different angle on it

 

[sylus]

If everyone agrees to never speak ill of thorn again will you promise to let it go? I think it's a sacrifice worth making. Besides he is my man entirely for next year in div 3

:claping hands:...OMG....yeah if you want another relegation in div 3...thorn the messiah...the guy is hopeless...he really is...

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

Okay Mumford, I note you're still dodging my questions, but I'll try another.

Sure, some clubs have sold. Vas Te, Maynard, etc.

I'll go with this one again. In the last season, we have lost King, Turner, Jutkiewitz, Gunnarsson and Westwood, and let McPake, Eastwood and ROD go out on loan. Name me one club that's had even close to that migration.

I'm waiting

but weve still got a squad of 15 players over the age of 22 plus 2 players from the best teams in the country on loan and 3 or 4 very good prospects that as a collective squad should be enough to get us out of trouble

 

[dongonzalos]

It's just plain and simple maths, experience, age and quality. We were favourites for relegation at the start of the season. We then let 6 experienced and some of our best players go. From a team that just survived relegation. We replaced them with 3 players 2 goalkeepers and striker. Prior to this it was known that we had a small.squad. in January we lost our top and only goal.scorer. we were then allowed to sign a couple of loanees. So 7 out 4 in. A couple of players came back from injury. We were undefeated in 7. The only way we would survive if we have a bit of luck on the injury front. Well clearly that has not happened. Our strongest 11 since January, can compete with most teams on its day. Unfortunately in this league to avoid relegation you need a strong 16, to challenge for.play offs a strong 20, the title a strong 15 IMO

 

[stupot07]

It's impossible to argue that their forward line is better than ours if goals are the measure but then our defence must be a lot better than theirs as they have let in 71 versus our 58.

I wouldn't disagree with you there Duffy, our 3 best players are keogh, cranie and clingan (2 CB's and a CDM).

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

but weve still got a squad of 15 players over the age of 22 plus 2 players from the best teams in the country on loan and 3 or 4 very good prospects that as a collective squad should be enough to get us out of trouble

Okay - thanks for not answering the question - yet again!

If you're going to debate, back it with facts. Name a club that's been stripped as per the list I gave. Name it!

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

But how, please, please tell me how. If the playing squad is funded in the bottom three of the division, what right do you have to expect - and I use the word 'expect' here - but what right do you have to expect your manager to cheat the odds and produce a performance others can't.

I simply and honestly can't understand

yet again you use an argument where because weve had less funding then usual , yes im annoyed about sisu but other clubs have small budgets (watford, bristol, peterboro, barnsley)

what about the previous 3 seasons where we've bought players like Bell Baker Clingan Deegan McDonald Platt Craine Keogh and Murphy

other teams in a simialr position have had to resort to youngsters for years gone by and survived

 

[stupot07]

but weve still got a squad of 15 players over the age of 22 plus 2 players from the best teams in the country on loan and 3 or 4 very good prospects that as a collective squad should be enough to get us out of trouble

Come on Mumford - just because they are from the top 2 teams doesn't mean that they are brilliant - lee sawyer, Luke steel, graham barratt, Neil wood, eddie Johnson are just 5 players we've had either on loan or signed permanently from a top 2 club.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Other teams have small budgets, Mumford - and this is where your argument defeats you - all the teams you give as examples are in the bottom half of the table. So you finally agree with me - there's a correlation between investment and league position.

They have small budgets. We have a smaller budget. Than all of them. They are low in the table. We are lower. Can you see?

And no team in this division is as reliant on youngsters as us. We've debated this one before. We play more youngsters, more often, in more positions than any other team in this division by a mile. Absolute fact

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

Okay - thanks for not answering the question - yet again!

If you're going to debate, back it with facts. Name a club that's been stripped as per the list I gave. Name it!

lets look at the following - in the years of 2011 and 2012

watford spent 1.1 m sold 8.6 m
bristol spent 640K sold 2.5m
Barnsley spent 1m sold 2.7m
peterboro spent 1.9m sold 6.9m

thats 4 teams spent less then money sold and above us

Cov have spent 550k and sold 2m

you do the maths

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

lets look at the following - in the years of 2011 and 2012

watford spent 1.1 m sold 8.6 m
bristol spent 640K sold 2.5m
Barnsley spent 1m sold 2.7m
peterboro spent 1.9m sold 6.9m

thats 4 teams spent less then money sold and above us

Cov have spent 550k and sold 2m

you do the maths

No, list the players - not their value. I'll tell you for why, Peterborough sold Ryan Bennett for a fee reported to be £3.2m. We sold Turner for close to half a million. That doesn't mean that Bennett was over six times as influential, does it? Moreover, King, Westwood, Gunnarsson all went for a pittance, as they were out of contract. The doesn't mean they're not a huge, huge loss, does it?

Please list the players, as I had the decency to do. Then you might give your argument some validity

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

No, list the players - not their value. I'll tell you for why, Peterborough sold Ryan Bennett for a fee reported to be £3.2m. We sold Turner for close to half a million. That doesn't mean that Bennett was over six times as influential, does it? Moreover, King, Westwood, Gunnarsson all went for a pittance, as they were out of contract. The doesn't mean they're not a huge, huge loss, does it?

Please list the players, as I had the decency to do. The you might give your argument some validity

whose swerving now ??

like at the balance of money in/out compared to other teams

weve sold the least amount in terms of money , maybe you can blame the board for not offering contracts or maybe certain players just wanted to leave

but it boils down to teams like the above manage to keep there head above the relegation zone with small budgets

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I am not swerving, I was discussing the effects upon the playing squad. Do you want me to help?

Watford: Will Buckley, Danny Graham, Nathan Ellington (free)
Posh: Craig Mackail-Smith, Ryan Bennett
Barnsley: Vas Te, Jason Shackell
Bristol: Maynard

Can you add to that at all?

Bearing in mind, we’re comparing against: King, Turner, Jutkiewitz, Gunnarsson, Westwood and McPake (I’ve aven omitted Eastwood to make it easier for you)

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

I am not swerving, I was discussing the effects upon the playing squad. Do you want me to help?

Watford: Will Buckley, Danny Graham, Nathan Ellington (free)
Posh: Craig Mackail-Smith, Ryan Bennett
Barnsley: Vas Te, Jason Shackell
Bristol: Maynard

Can you add to that at all?

Bearing in mind, we’re comparing against: King, Turner, Jutkiewitz, Gunnarsson, Westwood and McPake (I’ve aven omitted Eastwood to make it easier for you)

but we have/had bigger squads then the rest

king was moaned about when he arrived and wages were there for him if he wanted to stay
turner was never given praise enough and didnt feature under thorn
gunnarson many inclduing myself said his last season was poor
westwood great keeper
juke maybe miss him we seem to score more since he left
mcpake only on loan and would not be playing infront of keogh and craine

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

but we have/had bigger squads then the rest

What?!? I'll ignore the balance of your post as it's the work of a troubled mind; but what the hell are you on about here? I find it easier if I only still to one issue with you......

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I’m going to take my leave of you now, as I feel weary by the belligerence of your mind-set. Claiming we have a bigger squad than our contemporaries, because you look at the list of unproven youth-teamers SISU promoted to the first team squad to hide the cracks as being fit to engage in the battle we are faced with, is the final straw.

Many of our peers have sold players, I can see this. They have all sold less players, at better values than we have. Critical difference. The effect upon the team is less pronounced, the effect upon the finances of the club is more positive.

And they reinvest. Let me give you another example as I take my leave of you; Millwall. Sell Steve Morison for £2.8m to Norwich City, and then buy Darius Henderson, who’s popped up with 15 goals this season. Then when things look a bit sticky in January, they dip into the pot again and sign Andy Keogh. He chips in with 7 in 15, and a handful of assists, and they’re safe.

Yes, to hark back to one of your points, they’ve still got a small budget – as have many other teams. But they’re critically larger than ours. Such as Bristol City’s 8 loan signings – and bearing in mind we had to let McPake go to even get Norwood, our second in. When we played against them at Ashton Gate, we played very, very poorly – I acknowledge this. But until the 82nd minute it was all square. They brought 3 players off the bench, 2 being Premier League loan players, and the other bring a player they signed for cash last summer – and it was they who changed the game. Chris Wood, for example had been on loan at Birmingham before Christmas and scored 10 in 28. That’s some record. Don’t you think Thorn would have loved such a player?

Do you know what our bench was for the same game? Dunn – unproven, Christie – kid, Willis – kid, Bigirimana – kid, Nimely – kid

These are the clubs you are comparing us against – Millwall, Bristol, please don’t even get me started on the squad depth at Nottingham Forest.

You must understand that someone has to come bottom of the pile. It’s the role of the club’s management to give the incumbent manager as many tools at his disposal to make sure it’s not whilst he’s at the helm. If after this morning’s parade of facts, you think SISU have done so, then there’s no point in further debate with you. If you don’t, and you expect Thorn should over-perform, then you’re unreasonable. You decide which camp best suits :facepalm:

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

What?!? I'll ignore the balance of your post as it's the work of a troubled mind; but what the hell are you on about here? I find it easier if I only still to one issue with you......

the reason our squad looks thin because of the injuries

Hreidarsson
Wood
Cameron
Clarke
Deegan
Baker
Thomas
Christie

all out - massive numbers

 

[TommyAtkins]

I’m going to take my leave of you now, as I feel weary by the belligerence of your mind-set. Claiming we have a bigger squad than our contemporaries, because you look at the list of unproven youth-teamers SISU promoted to the first team squad to hide the cracks as being fit to engage in the battle we are faced with, is the final straw.

Many of our peers have sold players, I can see this. They have all sold less players, at better values than we have. Critical difference. The effect upon the team is less pronounced, the effect upon the finances of the club is more positive.

And they reinvest. Let me give you another example as I take my leave of you; Millwall. Sell Steve Morison for £2.8m to Norwich City, and then buy Darius Henderson, who’s popped up with 15 goals this season. Then when things look a bit sticky in January, they dip into the pot again and sign Andy Keogh. He chips in with 7 in 15, and a handful of assists, and they’re safe.

Yes, to hark back to one of your points, they’ve still got a small budget – as have many other teams. But they’re critically larger than ours. Such as Bristol City’s 8 loan signings – and bearing in mind we had to let McPake go to even get Norwood, our second in. When we played against them at Ashton Gate, we played very, very poorly – I acknowledge this. But until the 82nd minute it was all square. They brought 3 players off the bench, 2 being Premier League loan players, and the other bring a player they signed for cash last summer – and it was they who changed the game. Chris Wood, for example had been on loan at Birmingham before Christmas and scored 10 in 28. That’s some record. Don’t you think Thorn would have loved such a player?

Do you know what our bench was for the same game? Dunn – unproven, Christie – kid, Willis – kid, Bigirimana – kid, Nimely – kid

These are the clubs you are comparing us against – Millwall, Bristol, please don’t even get me started on the squad depth at Nottingham Forest.

You must understand that someone has to come bottom of the pile. It’s the role of the club’s management to give the incumbent manager as many tools at his disposal to make sure it’s not whilst he’s at the helm. If after this morning’s parade of facts, you think SISU have done so, then there’s no point in further debate with you. If you don’t, and you expect Thorn should over-perform, then you’re unreasonable. You decide which camp best suits :facepalm:

"It’s the role of the club’s management to give the incumbent manager as many tools at his disposal"

There is the other side to this debate as well, MMM. It is the job of the manager to make the most of the resources given him; I am not sure that Thorn has.

I would also suggest that it is the role of the club's management to give the manager only those resources which are affordable.

Clearly, on this site, as soon as one suggests someone other than SISU might share the blame, one is labelled as "pro-SISU"......

Nevertheless, given our troubled financial past and present, I am not sure that repeated investment was in the club's best interests.

This club needs to find a way of being sustainable.


PS Hope you are well, MMM

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

"It’s the role of the club’s management to give the incumbent manager as many tools at his disposal"

There is the other side to this debate as well, MMM. It is the job of the manager to make the most of the resources given him; I am not sure that Thorn has.

I would also suggest that it is the role of the club's management to give the manager only those resources which are affordable.

Clearly, on this site, as soon as one suggests someone other than SISU might share the blame, one is labelled as "pro-SISU"......

Nevertheless, given our troubled financial past and present, I am not sure that repeated investment was in the club's best interests.

This club needs to find a way of being sustainable.


PS Hope you are well, MMM

Thorn certainly hasn’t Tommy – especially pre-Christmas. The problem is – as you elude – this site likes to pigeon-hole a poster; pro, or anti-Thorn. I’m more of a shades of grey kinda guy….

I also agree that there has to be a level of sustainability. That would include having a financial plan for next season, irrespective of our fate, and for that to be visible to all. Which would give rise to accounts being filed and no embargo existing. Then, when the squad is ravished by injury, and it’s barest or bare bones exposed, the manager can draft in cover.

With regards income, well, as I posted on this site last week, and on the other post; if you look at average gates since SISU took over, the whole of the league took a 6% dip in their first season in charge – and sure, that’s not their fault; but since then the league average has bounced back to be only 3% down, whereas we’ve 25% down. What gives rise to that downturn? Poor managerial appointments, poor football, heavy-handed stewarding of the customers – we, the fans? Whatever, it’s given rise to a huge fall in income as it’s some 5K fans for every home game. What’s the value of that over a season – something like £2m? There’s your ‘exorbitant’ Ricoh rent covered twice over in punter’s cash they’ve simply driven away…..

The frustration I feel is Thorn has started to grow from a novice who had a tendency to be over-conservative, and lack ambition and a touch of nous, into a manager who’s getting better and has started to string results together. But at the very time he might be expected to be able to fall back on some – just some – backing from the owners, then it’s lacking. And not just lacking in a small way either; I believe their behaviour has been reprehensible

 

[TommyAtkins]

Thorn certainly hasn’t Tommy – especially pre-Christmas. The problem is – as you elude – this site likes to pigeon-hole a poster; pro, or anti-Thorn. I’m more of a shades of grey kinda guy….

I also agree that there has to be a level of sustainability. That would include having a financial plan for next season, irrespective of our fate, and for that to be visible to all. Which would give rise to accounts being filed and no embargo existing. Then, when the squad is ravished by injury, and it’s barest or bare bones exposed, the manager can draft in cover.

With regards income, well, as I posted on this site last week, and on the other post; if you look at average gates since SISU took over, the whole of the league took a 6% dip in their first season in charge – and sure, that’s not their fault; but since then the league average has bounced back to be only 3% down, whereas we’ve 25% down. What gives rise to that downturn? Poor managerial appointments, poor football, heavy-handed stewarding of the customers – we, the fans? Whatever, it’s given rise to a huge fall in income as it’s some 5K fans for every home game. What’s the value of that over a season – something like £2m? There’s your ‘exorbitant’ Ricoh rent covered twice over in punter’s cash they’ve simply driven away…..

The frustration I feel is Thorn has started to grow from a novice who had a tendency to be over-conservative, and lack ambition and a touch of nous, into a manager who’s getting better and has started to string results together. But at the very time he might be expected to be able to fall back on some – just some – backing from the owners, then it’s lacking. And not just lacking in a small way either; I believe their behaviour has been reprehensible

As ever, your points are articulate and well-made. Nevertheless, I have developed a measure of scorn for those fans who have abandoned their club over the past few years.

Ray Ranson made it clear that we needed more fans to attend to enable us to breakeven; this was well before the currrent unpleasantness. I agree about poor signings and poor managerial appointments. But this almost (almost) proves that money can never guarantee success.

For me, it was clear then that our position was unsustainable. Almost inevitably, SISU lost patience.

I find it odd that we have so many fans who set conditions on their support for CCFC:

"I won't go back until we are in the Premiership"
"I won't go back until we invest"
"I won't go back until SISU leave."

Those fans who stay away are depriving the club of income.

I am disappointed in Thorn. I thought he would prove to be the manager who could deal with limited resources and still deliver results. But again, I am critical of fans who blame SISU for appointing him. It isn't so long ago that fans were threatening to boycott City if SISU didn't appoint Thorn. The same fans who criticised SISU when SISU tried to claim credit for Thorn's appointment.

The current situation was all too predictable and has been coming since 2001.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I can agree with you there Tommy. I can’t see how a ‘fan’ can pick and choose the nature of their support. You’re either a fan, or a casual follower. I like steak and kidney pies. I don’t have them every week, just when I feel like it. That make me someone who quite likes steak and kidney pies. Not a pie-fan.

The bare-bones support of our club, for a city with in excess of 300K inhabitants is almost uniquely poor. Maybe SISU has no idea of how fickle our gossamer-thin sheen of support really is?

Whilst I do agree there's been a momentum building for many years; since SISU’s tenure, their lack of clarity, incessant directorship changes, poor communication and harsh treatment of anyone who dares to preach another gospel has resulted in an alarming acceleration in our demise

 

[1nilandwe...]

I am disappointed in Thorn. I thought he would prove to be the manager who could deal with limited resources and still deliver results.

What on earth made you think this? Blind faith? Were you eyeing up his managerial potential the whole time he was a scout?

The man is inexperienced. This is his first full season in management with what MMM has clearly proven to be a weak Championship squad. Yes he has made mistakes, but he's not got a magic wand. He's expected to make mistakes. Anyone who expected us to be comfortable this season is/was deluded.