robbiekeane
Well-Known Member
Because you are saying we would only “see” 10% of any windfall? Any money we get is used to cover losses first and foremost?
Would promotion bring some supporters back (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Evo1883
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BackRoomRummermill
Well-Known Member
Irish Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I was saying the same thing to a Blues supporting friend at work this week. Our play off reaching season in Division Four will have us feeling much more positive about the season than BCFC fans will about their, just about, survival in Division Two, despite them being two leagues above us.
The telling statistic is the one that has just been laid to rest, the nearly 50 years without a top 6 finish one. Without doing the tortuous maths, I would think that in terms of league wins and probably points and probably goals scored, this would leave us bottom of the pile for all those clubs who have been continuous members of the league for the past fifty years. It’s amazing that we still had 4K ST holders this season especially when the Sisu/Wasps factor is added. Promotion this year would go a long way to reversing a depressing trend.
Irish Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Without wanting to open a can of worms and with no intention of getting into a debate about it, where is the evidence that Sisu have supported Robins? The only extra support that I can see is that Fisher has thankfully disappeared again and that within the financial parameters he is set, Robins is allowed to get on with it. Boddy confirmed at the Trust meeting that the owners NOPM stance remains, the club stands or falls on the income it generates. Sisu haven’t changed.
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Londonccfcfan
Well-Known Member
Of course every supporter would hope we get more through the turnstiles next season regardless of the result on Monday.
I for one and there’s thousands more who regularly follow and support the team At Home and or away, couldn’t care less wether we do or we don’t. Don’t really need day trippers type.
Loved every minute of the season , it’s the first season I’ve done the majority of the away games, and yesterday I was busy framing all my away ticket Stubbs, then play off Stubbs and left a gap in the frame for the play off final ticket (like a family tree of tickets, which will take pride of place if we get promoted in my snooker room)...It’s been a season to remember the amazing away days precious father and son time and friends lots of ups and downs.
Loved it. Those that don’t want to go obviously have a reason not to.
I for one and there’s thousands more who regularly follow and support the team At Home and or away, couldn’t care less wether we do or we don’t. Don’t really need day trippers type.
Loved every minute of the season , it’s the first season I’ve done the majority of the away games, and yesterday I was busy framing all my away ticket Stubbs, then play off Stubbs and left a gap in the frame for the play off final ticket (like a family tree of tickets, which will take pride of place if we get promoted in my snooker room)...It’s been a season to remember the amazing away days precious father and son time and friends lots of ups and downs.
Loved it. Those that don’t want to go obviously have a reason not to.
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
Am I? Firstly, the transfer fees for Stevenson, Harries and Thomas were all leaked. Secondly, the revenue gained from prize money alone from the FA Cup can be calculated and thirdly, all three play-off fixtures can be estimated to reach a 7 figure sum given the number of tickets sold and t.v. money. So, it's hardly me simply pulling figures out my arse is it. Also, surely the money earned via the play-offs will cover our operating costs over the summer so how is that relevant? In previous seasons I would have agreed with that point, however for the beginning of the 2018-19 season I highly doubt this will apply.
What's season tickets and corporate sponsorship got to do with anything? That doesn't apply whatsoever as that's crucial income for the club to keep it's doors open, whereas the Maddison money is effectively a bonus. I don't think you're understanding my point whatsoever so I'll leave it here. Again you're ignoring a valid argument that financially we are better off than we have been for a significant amount of time due to our success on the field. Your argument suggests you assume CCFC can do as they please with their finances without any checks and balances from SISU. I'm not attributing SISU investment with CCFC revenue. You seem to be concocting that association yourself. My point is this, it's in fact SISU who have the jurisdiction to do as they please with any club funds generated internally and externally as it's THEIR business. If CCFC had an inherent need for such funds to remain solvent then I'd take your point but you seem to be ignoring facts and more worryingly, blatantly ignoring SISU's track record of failing to significantly reinvest effectively. I see any funds generated from a James Maddison sale as an opportunity for SISU to make a return on their investment without risking time and capital on projects such converting Ryton into flats and subsequently selling them on. Granted that's speculation but I think plenty would agree that's not a bad guess. Maddison may not even leave this season so I understand this is all hypothetical thinking and furthermore it's more than likely that the £30 million price tag is a mere exaggeration of the press.
But how does your sit-on-the-fence position help anyone? The fact you hold no caution whatsoever is astonishing to say the least. Given the fact CCFC nurtured Maddison we have a right to every penny of that money so I'd rather question our owners on what their intention with that said money is, rather than sitting on the fence and taking a 'lets wait and see' approach.
Nick
Administrator
That's actually incorrect isn't it? If you own a business you can't just do what you want with the money inside it just because you own it.
You say that it isn't speculation but then you say this:
How is just dealing with actual facts sitting on the fence, as opposed to making up numbers that you don't even know what they will be or how the payments will be staged and claiming what has happened to it before it's even happened? That is called speculation and we have had it year after year and it's often proved to be wrong.
You haven't questioned anything, you have said what would happen to it as if it is fact. It isn't sitting on the fence just to not start randomly plucking figures out of the air and guess what is going to happen at them is it? I haven't said that this year we won't show better revenues, that still doesn't say that every quid extra is going to be just taken straight out does it? We heard exactly the same year with the Checkatrade win and that money, they were going to that that money and the season ticket money and run apparently.
All of that then gets repeated, then passed on, repeated and it eventually becomes fact to others. The same as the people who were actually asking how much SISU gave the club for every ticket sold.
If it is actual fact and it's happened then of course it's a different situation entirely.
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
They're not doing as they please though are they. They're repaying their debt, which is allowed. So assuming it doesn't compromise the business they're more than allowed to pay off their own loans. So no that's not incorrect. Plus I'm fairly sure you can do as you please with the profits as a business owner is allowed to distribute dividends as they please. Which in SISU's case is their investors. Plus, Mike Ashley has been using Newcastle as a cash cow for years. So furthermore how is that incorrect?
You're clutching at straws now. Where have I explicitly said Maddison is guaranteed to go? I've suggested it's pretty likely but I'm not naive enough to understand anything can happen in football. I know that's speculation. But I also know Ed Balls (Norwich CEO) has stated in person that Norwich need to sell players to remain solvent.
What facts have you even stated?? The only fact you've reiterated is that you don't want to speculate? You're disregarding everything I'm arguing simply for the sake of argument though. Is it not fact we've sold 3 players this season who were all sold for respectable sums. Is it not fact we've made a guaranteed £200,000 from our FA Cup run in prize money alone this season. Is it not fact that we will make a 7 figure sum from our play-off fixtures this season? Please tell me what numbers I've made up?
Obviously I have? I'm questioning SISU's intentions of how they will use the Maddison money. Are you yet again struggling to understand my point as I've repeated it 3 times now. Well considering we were going down a division I think even you can 'speculate' (if you dare) that the Checkatrade income was crucial in bridging the losses from relegation.
Nick
Administrator
Of course they can call in debt if and when it's viable, that's completely different to it being simply because they own the business.
You haven't questioned anything, you have stated it will go to sisu.
I'm not struggling to understand what you are trying to say, I am saying it is all clearly speculation until it happens or doesn't happen.
How do you know we didn't budget on the reliance of those players being sold or that we didn't spend more and then used that to balance that bit of spend? If as rumoured also there was a fee for jch it could well have been used.
Fact is that we don't really know, they may well take every penny but we don't know that yet. The fact you post that on a thread about fans coming back shows you think it will affect attendances, which is why I said it won't really help anything.
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
Perhaps I should have been more clear. The fact we are in debt to SISU means as CCFC is THEIR business and owes them outstanding debts, they have a right to withdraw funds in order to repay those debts.
However you could argue that they do have access to profits regardless. Otium Entertainment Group trade as Coventry City Football Club as a limited company right, which means all the profits belong to the company and not to SISU personally. But surely as Otium Entertainment Group is a brach of SISU within their portfolio, this suggests SISU can have access to profits anyway as money doesn't go directly to the club but instead goes to an asset that falls under the SISU banner. Also, hedge funds are almost always open-ended and allow additions or withdrawals by their investors at any given time. Now I'll admit that could be wrong as it's a complicated area of business but it's food for thought.
Well exactly I could be completely wrong so this discussion could be completely for nothing. I understand that and please I pray I'm wrong because that money could be a massive turning point for us and would almost certainly allow us to be competitive next season, regardless of what league we're in.
I think that's a given isn't it? But in both transfer windows Robins stated explicitly that players would have to go if more were coming in? This suggests at not necessarily all sales were already included into the budget.
If I'm right and we see none / a tiny proportion of that money which could be used for competing in League One or another promotion push in League Two, even you can't deny that will massively piss off most Coventry City fans. I can't say if it would have an adverse effect on ticket sales. But I can't guarantee it wouldn't help by any means.
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Given that we've recently paid fees on outsourced borrowing I'm inclined to say
that should they do so, they are entitled .
I also think there was an instance somewhere in the last two sets of accounts which suggested they did ,can't remember exactly when or how much.
Close to the Maddison deal I think.
The biggest example closest to actually doing this indirectly,was the Sixfields season to the tune of around £3.5M.
that should they do so, they are entitled .
I also think there was an instance somewhere in the last two sets of accounts which suggested they did ,can't remember exactly when or how much.
Close to the Maddison deal I think.
The biggest example closest to actually doing this indirectly,was the Sixfields season to the tune of around £3.5M.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
They put some extra money in prior to the Maddison sale and when he was sold took some, not all, of that back out. That was noted in the next set of accounts that came out after he left.
In theory anyone we owe money could call in every penny of debt but then the club wouldn't be able to pay it and that would be the end of the club.
Realistically you can only go on what has been shown in the accounts to date and that gives no indication that SISU swoop in and take any money that comes in to the club.
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
In theory, yes. But that would be highly unlikely. If that theory was law, a huge proportion of clubs in the world would cease to exist.
Not to bang on the proverbial drum but in previous seasons hasn't CCFC been reliant on money that comes into the club, via transfer or sell-on clause income? Although what you say is true if SISU deem it unnecessary for the club to possess such funds from potential sell-on income then what's stopping them from using it to pay off debt? You could similarly argue that the accounts in recent seasons show that SISU have only ever given what the club require and nothing more. So what makes this scenario any different. So, in simple terms if the club need 10% of the JM money to balance the books then that's what they'll get.... why would SISU offer more?
If anything from an objective view this makes sense as it offers SISU a quick and effective way of paying off investors without putting the club's financial situation in jeopardy.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
But you're making up a scenario to suit your POV that isn't consistent with what has happened in the past. How much of the Checkatrade money did SISU take from the club. Or the tips to Spurs and Arsenal that would have generated unexpected windfalls? Or previous player sales?
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
I've reiterated in previous posts though that in recent years CCFC required cash injections such as that from the Checkatrade in order to remain solvent. Whereas this season we seem to be in a far more stable condition on the financial front due to our success on the field, which in itself is a unique situation and isn't consistent with previous years. So how is that my POV and what scenario am I fabricating? If SISU deem it unnecessary to release funds earned from any potential sell-on then they will not release such funds. That's not a scenario that is fact unfortunately.
Gazolba
Well-Known Member
Some, but not many. Many have given up on CCFC permanently and found other things to spend their money on.
It's much harder to get a customer back that to retain them in the first place.
Yes ,first paragraph Sorry, that's what I meant ,not an interest payment as such as far as we know, but a rare example of where they have taken something out.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Our attendances are down around around 8%, ignoring the ridiculous attendance claims for Accrington.
Solidarity payments down 40%.
League 2 prize money is hardly anything, I've seen £25K quoted for winning with it already dropping to £5K for 3rd.
Then you've got decreased advertising and sponsorship as we're at a lower level.
The play off semi finals won't bring as much as people think as it seems the money from all games goes in to a pot with 50% of that pot split between the 4 teams.
For Wembley we will receive 25% of the total gate receipts.
I'm not convinced that this seasons success has money pouring in. And looking at players in and out where are the big savings on wages with players like Doyle and McNulty coming in?
BackRoomRummermill
Well-Known Member
That sort of says to me that SISU have propped up Robins this season , which is what I have said . Interestly this Forum this season has seen a distinct abscence of the usual SISU criticism ......