court papers explained (4 Viewers)

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Fair enough, but you have to admit that you hide your anti-SISU passion under a bushel somewhat these days compared to, say, your anti-ACL/Council sentiments? I might be slightly suggesting that you enjoy swimming against the tide

 

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[lordsummerisle]

Fair enough, but you have to admit that you hide your anti-SISU passion under a bushel somewhat these days compared to, say, your anti-ACL/Council sentiments? I might be slightly suggesting that you enjoy swimming against the tide

Possibly!

The Sisu batte is well and truly over I'd have thought, a busted flush entirely, so no need to rub salt into wounds.

The ACL/Council battle is still to be thought, though will change my stance as soon as enough people catch up with me on that one of course!

 

[singers_pore]

Not everybody, Ashdown always very suspicious too, Tommy Atkins predicted pretty much spot on the likely outcome years ago of their ownership(yet gets derided as a Sisu worshipper).

There are a few though that just follow the crowd and as soon as it starts going the other way change sides very quickly, like Italians in a war.

Always tried to use rational arguments, which is why when it was majority pro-Sisu everywhere i was shouted down, and now it's majority anti-Sisu still shouted down(generally by the same people who were fanatically pro before).

There's a herd/mob mentality that is quite distasteful and that doesn't allow any argument that doesn't meet the consensus.

Wasn't Tommy Atkins the chap who incessantly claimed that we would not go into administration but instead we would be liquidated. He never was the brightest.

 

[standupforcity]

didnt chris coleman say we had the most left footed players he has ever seen in one club ? :thinking about::thinking about:

What he mean't was that he thought most of our players had two left feet!

 

[kmj5000]

I can't read anywhere that the documents suggest that the plan was to put ACL out of business. I understand the plan was to distress the mortgage so Yorkshire Bank would sell the mortgage to sisu for £2m-£5m. I think the mortgage was around £16m-£18m so if the plan had gone through ACL would be cutting their debt by a factor of 4 ... or down by 75%.
That would give ACL room to lower the rent to what ccfc want.





If SISU had acquired the loan, do you think that they would have charged ACL a fair rate of interest? Alternatively, would they perhaps have insisted on the repayment of it?

Although SISU may have acquired the loan for £2-5m, ACL would still owe the £16-18m. Do you seriously think SISU would have simply written off the difference?

 

[torchomatic]

Thanks for exposing the breathtaking double-standards of many people on here. Those who bleat about it all being about "doing the right thing" and morals are hypocrites like yourself.

There have very few people on here who have acknowledged that blame lies on both sides. Unfortunately, the majority like yourself let the hatred blind all rationality.

What ACL, Higgs or CCC may or may not have done is totally irrelevant to the fact that I believe SISU have been and are and will continue to be a disaster for our club and need to go as quickly as possible.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Thanks for exposing the breathtaking double-standards of many people on here. Those who bleat about it all being about "doing the right thing" and morals are hypocrites like yourself.

There have very few people on here who have acknowledged that blame lies on both sides. Unfortunately, the majority like yourself let the hatred blind all rationality.

There is no 'hatred'-this saga has seen the club inflict a points deduction on itself to get one over on the company it was once part of. Said company made numerous, substantial concessions to the club, and was met with resumption of the boycott.

When you're owed £1.3m and the debtor has refused every entreaty to settle (despite you being willing to cut the arrears), what choice are you left with?

 

[oldskyblue58]

I know, it's hard to believe.

But as OSB said, when the ACL chairman resigned and got a position at Yorkshire Bank the plan capsized.

what I was actually saying was that because of the Allvey link there was a potential flow of information behind the scenes that might mean Yorkshire Bank were aware of the "alleged" plan which might make it difficult for SISU to pay off the loan at between 2m and 5m (a key assertion in their application for judicial review). Never said that was why it capsized.

 

[Grendel]

There is no 'hatred'-this saga has seen the club inflict a points deduction on itself to get one over on the company it was once part of. Said company made numerous, substantial concessions to the club, and was met with resumption of the boycott.

When you're owed £1.3m and the debtor has refused every entreaty to settle (despite you being willing to cut the arrears), what choice are you left with?

Acknowledge the arrangement had been punitive and unfair for years and charge a peppercorn rent like Doncaster, Hull and Swansea. Fact is they would never have been put in this position by their councils would they?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Acknowledge the arrangement had been punitive and unfair for years and charge a peppercorn rent like Doncaster, Hull and Swansea. Fact is they would never have been put in this position by their councils would they?

Funny that the club only acknowledged this once they secured another relegation. Walsall shell out £450k on the Bescot yet secured a higher finish than ourselves-clearly it's not the sole determinant to success.

 

[cloughie]

Acknowledge the arrangement had been punitive and unfair for years and charge a peppercorn rent like Doncaster, Hull and Swansea. Fact is they would never have been put in this position by their councils would they?

And who do you propose pays the mortgage that helped build the stadium,............The money tree fairy?

 

[SkyBlueSwiss]

Thanks for exposing the breathtaking double-standards of many people on here. Those who bleat about it all being about "doing the right thing" and morals are hypocrites like yourself.

There have very few people on here who have acknowledged that blame lies on both sides. Unfortunately, the majority like yourself let the hatred blind all rationality.

WHAT BLAME?
The problem that I have with the claims you and others make is that SISU's cheating, as well as their incompetence in running a football club, has been exposed as fact (examples: they did not pay the contractually agreed rent, and they have now admitted their intent - which we all had sussed anyway- to distress ACL to get them and the stadium on the cheap), whereas AT THIS TIME THERE ARE NO SUCH PROVEN ACTIONS ON THE PART OF ACL OR CCC.

Do you understand this? Facts about SISU known/proven, but not about ACL or CCC. Afraid your entire argument falls down just on this point alone. We therefore at this time only have knowledge of SISU being devious, immoral and incompetent liars.
Should it be shown by proof - and not by SISU making yet more (at this time unsubstantiated) claims that ACL and/or CCC were complicit in all of this, then I will at that time apportion blame in some measure to them as well. But based on evidence to date only SISU have been caught out previously making false submissions to the courts and been caught lying in court.
So on what basis do you think that we should "apportion blame equally"? And by the way, why do you use such terms as "let the hatred blind all rationality"? There is no hate. Disgust at their actions and incompetence maybe, but where does this hate come from. That is somewhat over the top I am afraid, and I think I am being rational here based on the evidence out there for everybody.
Feel free to disagree with me Torch, but please do not accuse me of blind irrationality.

 

[Godiva]

If SISU had acquired the loan, do you think that they would have charged ACL a fair rate of interest? Alternatively, would they perhaps have insisted on the repayment of it?

Although SISU may have acquired the loan for £2-5m, ACL would still owe the £16-18m. Do you seriously think SISU would have simply written off the difference?

If this is true - I need to stress that it has not been confirmed by other sources - then we need to rethink the perception of sisu being the devil incarnated trying to pray on a local council and a charity foundation. If this is true it was a joint plan by all involved.
We may also need to wonder if 'CCC will NEVER sell their part of ACL to sisu' was another 'marketing' statement to sustain the pressure on Yorkshire Bank.

The objective was to restructure the 'food chain' of the football club - make sure it stood on financial solid ground and generated enough income to be independant of constant extra funding and had revenue to make it possible to have a squad under SCMP that can compete in the leagues.

As one of the cornerstones in the plan was to acquire the Higgs shares - then the club would own 50% of ACL. And by writing down ACL's debts to the price of the mortgage, ACL effetively goes up in value. It's a twisted investment, but one that actually produce an immediate asset increase in the clubs balance sheet (opposite of asset stripping).

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Funny that the club only acknowledged this once they secured another relegation. Walsall shell out £450k on the Bescot yet secured a higher finish than ourselves-clearly it's not the sole determinant to success.

Could argue Walsall have been hamstrung by their ground arrangements for years, though.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

WHAT BLAME?
whereas AT THIS TIME THERE ARE NO SUCH PROVEN ACTIONS ON THE PART OF ACL OR CCC.

Is worth holding them to account though.

If we'd done that with SISU at the time we might not be here now.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Could argue Walsall have been hamstrung by their ground arrangements for years, though.

Maybe, but we've paid no rent for a year-hasn't done the team much good has it?

 

[Sub]

If this is true - I need to stress that it has not been confirmed by other sources - then we need to rethink the perception of sisu being the devil incarnated trying to pray on a local council and a charity foundation. If this is true it was a joint plan by all involved.
We may also need to wonder if 'CCC will NEVER sell their part of ACL to sisu' was another 'marketing' statement to sustain the pressure on Yorkshire Bank.

The objective was to restructure the 'food chain' of the football club - make sure it stood on financial solid ground and generated enough income to be independant of constant extra funding and had revenue to make it possible to have a squad under SCMP that can compete in the leagues.

As one of the cornerstones in the plan was to acquire the Higgs shares - then the club would own 50% of ACL. And by writing down ACL's debts to the price of the mortgage, ACL effetively goes up in value. It's a twisted investment, but one that actually produce an immediate asset increase in the clubs balance sheet (opposite of asset stripping).

Could just be another way of SISU trying to frighten off another investor in CCFC by saying the council or ACL can not be trusted, just like they did with the last investor that was intrested by releasing his name to the press!!!

 

[Godiva]

Could just be another way of SISU trying to frighten off another investor in CCFC by saying the council or ACL can not be trusted, just like they did with the last investor that was intrested by releasing his name to the press!!!

It could - but then again they have to present their case to a judge. They must believe they have evidence to back their claim.

I hope there will be statements from CCC and ACL today or tomorrow.

Edit: I would really like to see a statement from the former ACL chairman - now director at Yorkshire Bank.

 

[Grendel]

And who do you propose pays the mortgage that helped build the stadium,............The money tree fairy?

Remind me how much was the original mortgage?

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

Remind me how much was the original mortgage?

£10m grant....£21m Mortgage.....look at the link below.
Remind me who it was that took out the mortgage and saved CCFC by throwing them a lifeline?
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...meline-to-the-ricoh-arena-row-92746-33142794/

 

[SkyBlueSwiss]

It could - but then again they have to present their case to a judge. They must believe they have evidence to back their claim.

I hope there will be statements from CCC and ACL today or tomorrow.

Edit: I would really like to see a statement from the former ACL chairman - now director at Yorkshire Bank.

NO! They do not HAVE to present their case to a judge. They can withdraw this at the last moment just as they withdrew their appeal against the points deduction at the last moment. This way they muddy the waters yet again at little cost and cast doubt on everyone else without having to prove anything and delay the entire process. It might be weeks or months before this judicial review starts, giving SISU weeks or months of delaying tactics and having unsubstantiated claims out there causing confusion.

People seem to be forgetting that this is the standard SISU Modus Operandi, this is the way they always do business. They are past masters at twisting the truth and using the court systems to gain unfair advantage and to threaten and abuse people and cause obfuscation. This is not a "hate SISU" statement, this is a simple statement that this is the way SISU have always done business and it is what they are doing now. It is how they make their money!

 

[SkyBlueSwiss]

£10m grant....£21m Mortgage.....look at the link below.
Remind me who it was that took out the mortgage and saved CCFC by throwing them a lifeline?
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...meline-to-the-ricoh-arena-row-92746-33142794/

JUST STOP THIS RIGHT NOW!
How dare you try and introduce facts into a "discussion" with Grenduffy.

 

[Sky Blue Dal]

After reading the article on CT website, all I can see is a good PR stunt by SISU. This is there bread and butter and are experts at discrediting other parties they feel are getting in there way.

I cannot see this being entertained by the judge. The facts are ACL/CCC thought about it after SISU gave them the idea of distressing ACL for a better deal from Yorkshire bank but they backed off knowing this will not go down well if it got leaked out or possibly when Kevin Foster MP demanded more transparency whilst they were probably having these deals behind closed doors.

I can't see how this can be illegal or any concern to the public when nothing came of it as ACL/CCC had a change of mind. All they were discussing was one of many loopholes in the banks financial system which they can take advantage of. They are not the only businesses that have discussed about taking advantage of this loophole.

My analogy of the court documents SISU have issued is no different to a drug pusher encouraging and trying to push the drugs on a kid, the kid thinks about should I take it? or Should I not? and then tells the pusher he is not interested only to find out when he gets home that the pusher has sent his drugged up messenger around to his mothers house to tell her that her son has been a bad boy because he thought about taking the drugs but did not and should be punished for even thinking about taking it. :facepalm:

 

[sky blue john]

Acknowledge the arrangement had been punitive and unfair for years and charge a peppercorn rent like Doncaster, Hull and Swansea. Fact is they would never have been put in this position by their councils would they?

I'm surprised with your expected intellect your still banging on about a side issue that has been proved pretty irrelevant in the bigger scheme of ccfc.

 

[lordsummerisle]

JUST STOP THIS RIGHT NOW!
How dare you try and introduce facts into a "discussion" with Grenduffy.

The £21million loan was to ACL, immediately paid back to the council for the 50 year lease on the Arena.

 

[Godiva]

NO! They do not HAVE to present their case to a judge. They can withdraw this at the last moment just as they withdrew their appeal against the points deduction at the last moment. This way they muddy the waters yet again at little cost and cast doubt on everyone else without having to prove anything and delay the entire process. It might be weeks or months before this judicial review starts, giving SISU weeks or months of delaying tactics and having unsubstantiated claims out there causing confusion.

That is true - they can withdraw.
It is - as I have said numerous times - sisu's claim.

It will be interesting to see how CCC/ACL react.

 

[lordsummerisle]

A

I cannot see this being entertained by the judge. The facts are ACL/CCC thought about it after SISU gave them the idea of distressing ACL for a better deal from Yorkshire bank but they backed off knowing this will not go down well if it got leaked out or possibly when Kevin Foster MP demanded more transparency whilst they were probably having these deals behind closed doors.

I can't see how this can be illegal or any concern to the public when nothing came of it as ACL/CCC had a change of mind. All they were discussing was one of many loopholes in the banks financial system which they can take advantage of. They are not the only businesses that have discussed about taking advantage of this loophole.

:facepalm:

Hold on, where's the faux moral outrage?

You say, as facts(though nobody knows yet), that ACL and the Council were going to do what the court documents allege, but didn't just becuae they were worried they'd get caught?

This incessant defending and obfuscation of anything the council/ACL do is going a bit far now.

It's like some sort of hive-mind that has lost the ability for independent thought.

 

[SkyBlueSwiss]

Hold on, where's the faux moral outrage?

You say, as facts(though nobody knows yet), that ACL and the Council were going to do what the court documents allege, but didn't just becuae they were worried they'd get caught?

This incessant defending and obfuscation of anything the council/ACL do is going a bit far now.

It's like some sort of hive-mind that has lost the ability for independent thought.

Agree with Lord here - dreadful analogy. Stop with the analogies and comparisons already.

 

[torchomatic]

Still waiting for the quote.....

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

 

[torchomatic]

There is no 'hatred'-this saga has seen the club inflict a points deduction on itself to get one over on the company it was once part of. Said company made numerous, substantial concessions to the club, and was met with resumption of the boycott.

When you're owed £1.3m and the debtor has refused every entreaty to settle (despite you being willing to cut the arrears), what choice are you left with?

I think youre being very naive. You read the bile on a daily basis as much as i do.

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

 

[James Smith]

Btw - where is PWKH?
He use to be quick to come here whenever sisu make statements.

I suspect we scared him off after the balloongate threads on here.

 

[duffer]

I'm just trying to get my head around this. If I've got it right, SISU are suggesting that CCC were prepared to enter into a conspiracy with them, to falsely lower the value of ACL to Yorkshire Bank, by withholding rent by secret agreement. On this basis SISU think the mortgage could have been bought from Yorkshire Bank for £2m - £5m.

As someone who worked in banking for a while (admittedly in consumer debt rather than commercial debt), I don't think that plan holds much water. In my experience banks don't sell the debts of customers thought to be approaching financial difficulty - it's only the customers actually in financial difficulty (i.e. not actually paying their bills) and where all other collections avenues have been exhausted, that they will tend to punt on at a discount.

So for this to work ACL would have to stop paying the mortgage, but then there's no guarantee what action YB would take. They might have gone down the admin route and looked to get hold of the stadium and land for themselves, for all we know. And even if YB did decide to sell the debt, there's no knowing for how much, or to whom. That £2m - £5m figure is completely plucked out of the air, as far as I can see.

If it was a plan - it was a pants one from where I'm sitting.

So maybe I've misread it, but I can't see how this is much more than the usual bs we've had from SISU, designed to muddy the water. It'll be interesting to see what evidence they'll put forward, but if it's just "he said, she said" stuff with no corroborating documentation, then I can't see this getting too far. We'll soon see.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think youre being very naive. You read the bile on a daily basis as much as i do.

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I don't think anyone has a personal agenda against the main people involved. Look objectively at everything that has happened under SISU's tenure-the idea of yet another season with them at the helm is incomprehensible to myself and many others. The language varies but the sentiments don't.

 

[James Smith]

Was the debt with Yorkshire Bank secured or unsecured?

Assuming it was the former why would they write off so much money and accept £4-5m when as secured creditors they could potentially get hold of the ACL/lease of the Ricoh.

If it was the latter then why on earth didn't they secure it against the lease?

 

[chiefdave]

Assuming it was the former why would they write off so much money and accept £4-5m when as secured creditors they could potentially get hold of the ACL/lease of the Ricoh.

If it was secured against anything it would be the lease. York Bank aren't in the business of managing stadiums so now doubt they would have looked to sell the lease on to recover as much of the debt as they could. Wonder who would be interested in buying that?!

I think we can accept that there was an issue between ACL and the bank as a bailout was required. It's not that difficult to imagine the bank had a conversation with SISU about what would happen if the bank eneded up owning the lease as they would be the most likley purchasers.