Brexit/SISU (2 Viewers)

[Astute]

Except I never made that statement. This thread has numerous posts stating that those who voted leave knew exactly what brexit meant and exactly what they were and won't voting for.

Just like I am supposed to believe that those voting remain were supposed to know what they were voting for. Both sides were lied to. Some on both sides would have fallen for it.

And when the bus sign was first used it was correctly called out as a lie countless times. Yet it is supposed to have swung the vote

 

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[Astute]

Well as voting remain meant things staying the same it wasn't too hard to work out.

Yes.....not going to war.

 

[chiefdave]

Just like I am supposed to believe that those voting remain were supposed to know what they were voting for.

Voting remain was voting for things to stay the same. I think most people can cope with working out what that means.
Voting leave was a leap into the unknown. We had, and still don't have, any idea what exit agreement the UK will make with the EU, we don't know what agreement the UK will make with any other non-EU country. We don't know how it will impact on immigration, jobs, the economy or anything else.

Yes.....not going to war.

When did Cameron actually say we would be going to war if we voted leave? I remember Junker making some weird comment about it and I remember Cameron giving a speech which had something about not being sure beyond any doubt that peace and stability wouldn't be affected by a leave vote. Not really the same thing as saying vote leave mean WWIII.

 

[albatross]

The stock market didn't crash. It went down for a small amount of time then went straight back up. It wasn't a crash at all.

Inflation isn't rising sharply. Some prices are going up. Others are going down. Just like they do these days.

Financial services leaving? Just a guess. No proof in the slightest. Just like car makers were supposed to pull out. But new models have recently been announced.

I agree with you on the Cameron lies though.

The reason the stock market has risen is that there is no other viable investment to be made. There is no institution paying interest so the stock market is the pretty much the only place to put your money.

With regards to most economic indicators its too early to draw lasting conclusions. But just wait until after Christmas as the supermarkets et al are frantically trying to keep prices down. Any product or commodity that is purchased in Euros or Dollars is now 20% more expensive. All fuel trading is done in USD so thats going to touch every part of the economy.

But getting on to the banks , certainly the government faces the real dilemma of having to pay for the bankers to keep their passport to trade. How popular will that be having to do a special deal for the B****rds that started the financial problems, but if that is the price the other EU nations want then they may concede. France and Germany are very envious of our position and are always looking to take a share of it. They only have a fraction of the transactions on london but certainly If they lose the passport then the financial services sector will take a hit.

Many on here mention immigrants, what is India's first overtures for better access to their market, more visas and more fastrtack visas.

Norway, subject to every EU trading legislation (the same as all EU countries) access to the free market, have to accept free movement and pay for it! But they have oodles of cash from their oil so are somewhat insulated from the economic stresses of the UK

 

[Kingokings204]

So everyone knew exactly what vote leave meant but two of the most high profile figures of the leave campaign, Farage and Johnson, had totally different views.

Has there ever been a more blatant lie than the official vote leave bus having £350m to the NHS plastered down the side of it. We don't even send £350m a week for a start, its less than £250m and then if you account for what the EU spends in the UK it comes down to around £136m a week. I'm struggling to think of a bigger outright lie that has been told in any campaign.

Bollocks. We pay £55 million a day so it's £375m a week actually. We get 21m back so net its £34m a day we pay which is 10 billion a year. Get your facts right before you tell others they are lying please.

 

[Kingokings204]

So everyone on the leave side didnt know what they voted for and everyone on the remain side did. Right got it.

 

[Astute]

The reason the stock market has risen is that there is no other viable investment to be made. There is no institution paying interest so the stock market is the pretty much the only place to put your money.

So what is gold and real estate?

So what went wrong nearly 10 years ago when the stock market crashed? People were certainly not putting money in the bank.

 

[chiefdave]

Bollocks. We pay £55 million a day so it's £375m a week actually. We get 21m back so net its £34m a day we pay which is 10 billion a year. Get your facts right before you tell others they are lying please.

According to the Treasury are gross contribution is £17.8bn (£342m a week).

However since 1984 we've paid less than the 1% of GDP everyone else pays. We get a rebate which is currently £4.9bn. So that's £12.9bn (£248m a week).

But we don't actually pay the money and then get the rebate we pay the amount minus the rebate, the £342m a week is never paid to the EU.

Now that doesn't take into account what we get out of the EU but the £248m a week could be argued to be the amount we pay in.

The Treasury then puts the amount we get back at £4.4bn, such as money paid to public bodies, to farmers and in subsidies to places such as Cornwall.

The EU also invests money into the private sector such as scientific research. The tresuary figure for this is £1.4bn.

That gives you a net of £7.1bn or £136m a week.

 

[Astute]

So everyone on the leave side didnt know what they voted for and everyone on the remain side did. Right got it.

If what most that is being said on here is true yes

 

[chiefdave]

So everyone on the leave side didnt know what they voted for and everyone on the remain side did. Right got it.

Again thats not what is being said but surely, as a generalisation, its easier for people to know what is meant but things staying exactly as they are versus taking a leap into the unknown.

I'm sure there's people who voted remain who had the most out there ideas of what would happen if they won and similarly people voting leave.

 

[Kingokings204]

Much better post and very informative but simply not the facts and figures I have front of me. We will just have to disagree unless your jean Claude juncker?

 

[chiefdave]

Much better post and very informative but simply not the facts and figures I have front of me. We will just have to disagree unless your jean Claude juncker?

What figures have you got then? Mine are from HM Treasury:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...83344/EU_finances_2015_final_web_09122015.pdf

 

[Kingokings204]

These

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...w-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html

 

[Astute]

That gives you a net of £7.1bn or £136m a week.

How many nurses would that pay for?

How many homeless people would it house?

How many pints of beer would it buy me?

 

[albatross]

So everyone on the leave side didnt know what they voted for and everyone on the remain side did. Right got it.

I am genuinely interested in what people actually voted for because both sides conducting the debate at a national level were appalling.

From your point of view did you simply vote to leave as per the question on the paper? If that is the case then no negotiation is required. Serve article 50 and adopt World Trade Organisation rules. End of clear cut and out. This will be the default position if we cannot successfully negotiate.

Or did you vote for something that is between what we have today and and WTO rules? Something that will require negotiation. If that is the case what would that look like?

 

[Kingokings204]

Interestingly the telegraph graph shows we pay more and get less than most other countries. Poland no wonder they love the EU they get a lot more out than they put in. Now that's a deal.

 

[albatross]

How many nurses would that pay for?

How many homeless people would it house?

How many pints of beer would it buy me?

Sorry but its not quite a simple as that. What mainly pays for all of our services is the Tax revenue that the treasury receives. That number dwarfs the contribution. You have to examine the impact of being outside , or having partial access to the single market and what that does to the money coming in to the treasury coffers. That will dictate what this country can and cannot afford to do.

The beer equation would be an interest experiment though.

 

[Kingokings204]

I am genuinely interested in what people actually voted for because both sides conducting the debate at a national level were appalling.

From your point of view did you simply vote to leave as per the question on the paper? If that is the case then no negotiation is required. Serve article 50 and adopt World Trade Organisation rules. End of clear cut and out. This will be the default position if we cannot successfully negotiate.

Or did you vote for something that is between what we have today and and WTO rules? Something that will require negotiation. If that is the case what would that look like?

Great point but if leavers left for different reasons then remainers remained for different reasons. Surely?

For me leave meant leave for everything. Leave the EU which meant leaving the single market which meant leaving open door immigration and leaving our contributions we pay and leaving the rules the EU imposes on us. Leaving the unelected polictians. Just simply leave meaning leave it all. I voted based on it all not one factor.

 

[Astute]

Sorry but its not quite a simple as that. What mainly pays for all of our services is the Tax revenue that the treasury receives. That number dwarfs the contribution. You have to examine the impact of being outside , or having partial access to the single market and what that does to the money coming in to the treasury coffers. That will dictate what this country can and cannot afford to do.

The beer equation would be an interest experiment though.

We are seriously in debt and the debt is growing. So it depends what you mean by affordable.

 

[Astute]

Interestingly the telegraph graph shows we pay more and get less than most other countries. Poland no wonder they love the EU they get a lot more out than they put in. Now that's a deal.

Only Germany pays in more than us. And they sell a lot more to other EU countries than they buy.

 

[Astute]

What figures have you got then? Mine are from HM Treasury:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...83344/EU_finances_2015_final_web_09122015.pdf

It says that we make 3 types of payments into the pot. How many did you count?

 

[skybluetony176]

So everyone on the leave side didnt know what they voted for and everyone on the remain side did. Right got it.

Problem was that there were a lot of mixed messages coming out of the leave campaign. The biggest one being the single market. Boris and Gove were miles apart on this. Did people vote out based on what Gove was saying or on what Boris was saying?

 

[Astute]

Problem was that there were a lot of mixed messages coming out of the leave campaign. The biggest one being the single market. Boris and Gove were miles apart on this. Did people vote out based on what Gove was saying or on what Boris was saying?

When are you going to admit that mixed messages were coming from both sides. Both sides had the liars and those being more truthful. But it is the lies most remembered.

I am still waiting for the catastrophic result from the leave vote and the resulting war.

 

[chiefdave]

These
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...w-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html

They're the same figures but they've done some rounding up and also included the aid we give via the EU however if we weren't in the EU we'd still give that aid, just directly not via the EU so I'm not sure you can really include that in the calculation.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

and the resulting war.

Coming tomorrow after election results are in.

 

[chiefdave]

How many nurses would that pay for?

How many homeless people would it house?

How many pints of beer would it buy me?

The answer to all three is lots! Problem is its not that straightforward. That figure is just what we pay in - what we take out. It doesn't account for any economic impact of being members of the EU. That's where the real debate should have been.

 

[chiefdave]

Coming tomorrow after election results are in.

There was a thing on the radio today saying a poll in the US had shown 42% of people intending to vote for Trump believe he will start a nuclear war! Why the hell are they voting for him then???

 

[skybluetony176]

When are you going to admit that mixed messages were coming from both sides. Both sides had the liars and those being more truthful. But it is the lies most remembered.

I am still waiting for the catastrophic result from the leave vote and the resulting war.

When are you going to realise that people voted out because they wanted change and people voted remain because they wanted no change. Problem is if you put the BS to one side from both sides the outcome of a remain victory was singular, the outcome of a leave victory was ambiguous because they couldn't even agree amongst themselves what leave means.

Take what kingokings believes he voted for "For me leave meant leave for everything. Leave the EU which meant leaving the single market which meant leaving open door immigration and leaving our contributions we pay and leaving the rules the EU imposes on us. Leaving the unelected polictians. Just simply leave meaning leave it all. I voted based on it all not one factor" only Gove was saying leave the single market. Boris wasn't. How did Goves leadership bid go? He's not even in government. He may as well have promised everyone eleventy billion pounds (or $200 in todays money ) if leave won. It's empty promises. We knew what to expect with pretty much 100% certainty what would happen if remain won. We didn't and still don't have any idea what leave means. It meant what ever you wanted it to mean seems to be the case. Doesn't mean it's going to happen though. The only thing we know for certainty is that we're leaving the EU. So kingoking is guaranteed pretty much some of the things he believed he voted for but he ain't going to get all of it. The big one possibly being exiting the single market not happening.

 

[Astute]

When are you going to realise that people voted out because they wanted change and people voted remain because they wanted no change.

When you won't admit that people voted remain because of the scare tactics used by Cameron and Co?

It is me that has said all along that lies were told by both sides and some would have voted in favour of what they heard. You have said that whatever was said those that were voting remain changed their minds but those voting leave were not scared into voting remain because they knew what remain meant.

One sided views or what.

 

[chiefdave]

leaving the rules the EU imposes on us

This is one I found interesting. Was always fun to ask leave voters which particular EU laws they were opposed to and see what response you got.

And of course there's the Norway thing. Norway aren't part of the EU and were held up as a good way forward to us yet their countries law adopts pretty much every EU law as otherwise it would impact their ability to trade.

 

[skybluetony176]

When you won't admit that people voted remain because of the scare tactics used by Cameron and Co?

It is me that has said all along that lies were told by both sides and some would have voted in favour of what they heard. You have said that whatever was said those that were voting remain changed their minds but those voting leave were not scared into voting remain because they knew what remain meant.

One sided views or what.

I said put the BS to one side from both sides. Is that not an admitting both sides bullshited?

 

[Astute]

I said put the BS to one side from both sides. Is that not an admitting both sides bullshited?

Said it once then attacked those that voted differently to yourself countless times you mean?

 

[skybluetony176]

This is one I found interesting. Was always fun to ask leave voters which particular EU laws they were opposed to and see what response you got.

And of course there's the Norway thing. Norway aren't part of the EU and were held up as a good way forward to us yet their countries law adopts pretty much every EU law as otherwise it would impact their ability to trade.

Indeed. How many laws do people think will change once we leave? Not many if any will be my guess. Bent carrots in the shops maybe, something along those lines.

It was Boris and Ferage holding Norway up as a way forward although I caught a bit of Ferage on TV yesterday briefly and he was saying leave the single market, which of course isn't the Norway model. Still it's not like Ferage was changing his stance just hours after declaring it a victory against the bankers (where did Ferage make his money again) is it.

 

[skybluetony176]

Said it once then attacked those that voted differently to yourself countless times you mean?

I didn't attack anyone. Just used what kingokings believed he was voting for as an example of the ambiguity of the leave campaign. The two major players in the leave campaign were Gove and Boris and they were singing of different hymn sheets on many things especially and most importantly the single market. Both are in the party who are currently in power and if Gove had have won the leadership competition kingokings possibly might have got everything he believed he voted for, if Cameron hadn't resigned he definitely wouldn't have, if Boris had of won he probably wouldn't have and because May won he probably won't. At the end of the day if the Tory party collectively wanted out the single market Gove would probably be prime minister right now as he was the only one saying out the EU means out the single market to.

 

[Astute]

Most didn't listen to a single word Boris or Farage said. But they supposedly swung the vote. And the lies from the remain lot supposedly never made a difference. Well according to you anyway.