F1 2023 (1 Viewer)

[Paul Anthony]

Leclerc taking new engine components already, in the form of a new energy store (two allowed for the season).

Ferrari concerned about reliability? Or is there something strategic going on?

 

---

[tisza]

Don't particularly care for Alonso, but if Aston Martin are even close to disrupting the established order, I'll be cheering them on. A few different winners is only good for F1, especially with it being a bit of a closed shop nowadays.

Any sort of competitive championship welcome/needed. Even a few more competitive races would be nice - even some of the supposed closer ones last few seasons have been down to safety cars etc rather than actual racing.
In this cap era it remains slightly odd gaps haven't closed much.

 

[Saddlebrains]

Max off doing time trials for the afternoon then

Yawn

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Do you call your teammate a cock when his dad's your boss?

 

[Saddlebrains]

I think this may be done with F1 for a while.

The Red Bull domination with Vettel, leading to the Mercedes domination with Hamilton, now leading to Red Bull domination with Max.

Of course 2021 was a crackin season but other than that i dint think I've enjoyed a season properly since 2008

 

[xcraigx]

Dodgy stream broke 10 minutes ago. Usually I'll be swearing at the PC and scrambling to find another but i'm off to peel some spuds. It feels a slightly less miserable way to spend the afternoon.

 

[Paul Anthony]

Could be a long season this. Not sure I'll stay the course either.

In 22 years watching the sport, I don't think I've ever been so unenthusiastic about the start of a season.

We haven't even got Latifi around to have his usual accident to spice things up!

 

[tisza]

First race of the season halfway point max is a second a lap better than 3rd place and 2 + seconds a lap better than 9th and below.
Yet again Sky having to hype up battle for 5/6/7/8th at the end of the race.
Don't see myself lasting a season of this. Mid table scraps aren't enough to keep it interesting.

 

[Paul Anthony]

And there's Ferrari doing a Ferrari.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Let's see how Aston Martin do at other tracks. Promising start so far.

 

[Saddlebrains]

Agree with you both @tisza @Paul Anthony

I've always said to people for me its

Coventry City
F1
Football

But i really dont think i can even defend it anymore. The gap at the front is massive and bar 2021, has been for the front team for ages. That added to the drive to survive malarky and i just think its lost its identity now.

Even people who werent F1 fans, would always be Sunday lunch, F1 on to have a watch of the first few laps or stay the course if a good race.

I dont even know anyone who does that anymore. I love to sport but my lord its hard to stick up for it at times isnt it?

 

[tisza]

Alonso a nice story but that's ominous for the season. Best car wins by basically a lap and that's with engine settings turned down for large chunk of the race etc.
Is there such a dearth of engineers / designers that the other 9 teams just can't find the talent to compete with the top team - particularly in a budget capped sport? It's a Mercedes situation again when you can have anyone in the 2 car and they'll finish runner up.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Alonso a nice story but that's ominous for the season. Best car wins by basically a lap and that's with engine settings turned down for large chunk of the race etc.
Is there such a dearth of engineers / designers that the other 9 teams just can't find the talent to compete with the top team - particularly in a budget capped sport? It's a Mercedes situation again when you can have anyone in the 2 car and they'll finish runner up.

Budget cap arguably makes it harder to catch up, though. No chance to just throw money at it if you get it wrong.

Same with engine freezes, no chance for a car to have the best engine but mediocre chassis and vice versa, where you are is where you'll stay, within a prior set margin.

 

[Paul Anthony]

Agree with you both @tisza @Paul Anthony

I've always said to people for me its

Coventry City
F1
Football

But i really dont think i can even defend it anymore. The gap at the front is massive and bar 2021, has been for the front team for ages. That added to the drive to survive malarky and i just think its lost its identity now.

Even people who werent F1 fans, would always be Sunday lunch, F1 on to have a watch of the first few laps or stay the course if a good race.

I dont even know anyone who does that anymore. I love to sport but my lord its hard to stick up for it at times isnt it?

It being on pay TV doesn't help at all, especially with the costs of living as they are.

That's how I got into it, my Grandad used to have it on every Sunday lunch time, and sometimes I'd eat there with him and watch it. Eventually, I kind of grew into it to the point one Sunday lunch time, I thought I'd put ITV on and give it a watch. After that there was very little that stopped me watching. The sound of those V10's still gives me goosebumps when I hear them, that's what really hooked me.

 

[tisza]

Budget cap arguably makes it harder to catch up, though. No chance to just throw money at it if you get it wrong.

Same with engine freezes, no chance for a car to have the best engine but mediocre chassis and vice versa, where you are is where you'll stay, within a prior set margin.

In season sure. But season to season ( with a ltd number of engine suppliers) the gap should be closing with a budget cap. There's (seemingly) no one special expensive item the RB has that other teams don't. It's how they put things together.

Mercedes had the edge for so long then badly went off the rails last season to let Red Bull gain an advantage. They should have the experience (and resources) to claw it back but don't seem close.
Ferrari can't get any part right - on or off the track.
Are we just going to have to wait until 2026 and the new regs to see if teams can close the gap?

 

[NorthernWisdom]

In season sure. But season to season ( with a ltd number of engine suppliers) the gap should be closing with a budget cap.

Once it's set regs though, not really, as you still have to progresssignificantly more than the other team to overtake them.

 

[Paul Anthony]

In season sure. But season to season ( with a ltd number of engine suppliers) the gap should be closing with a budget cap. There's (seemingly) no one special expensive item the RB has that other teams don't. It's how they put things together.

Mercedes had the edge for so long then badly went off the rails last season to let Red Bull gain an advantage. They should have the experience (and resources) to claw it back but don't seem close.
Ferrari can't get any part right - on or off the track.
Are we just going to have to wait until 2026 and the new regs to see if teams can close the gap?

There's one thing Red Bull have that nobody else does. His name is Adrian Newey.

 

[tisza]

There's one thing Red Bull have that nobody else does. His name is Adrian Newey.

Goes back to my original point is there really a dearth of engineering/ design talent to compete? Mercedes had a prolonged spell "beating" Newey but the exodus of staff 2021/2022 to Red Bull also damaged Mercedes.
Aston Martin obviously found someone seeing as the "Mercedes b car" outperformed the a car today.

 

[Paul Anthony]

Goes back to my original point is there really a dearth of engineering/ design talent to compete? Mercedes had a prolonged spell "beating" Newey but the exodus of staff 2021/2022 to Red Bull also damaged Mercedes.
Aston Martin obviously found someone seeing as the "Mercedes b car" outperformed the a car today.

Aston Martin basically took Newey's number two from Red Bull, their head of aero Dan Fallows, which is why their car ended up going down the Red Bull philosophy. Obviously helped as he had a good insight into how the Red Bull worked and was able to apply that to his own work on the new Aston.

In general though, I think there's plenty of engineering talent in F1, but the problem is Adrian Newey has one huge advantage at the minute, in that he's the only one left with prior working experience with ground effect in F1. Hence he understood the porpoising issue before the like of Mercedes and Ferrari, because he'd seen before it in the 80's.

Clearly Mercedes have been hurt by the exodus of staff they went through, and I think it might be inevitable there could be changes for them. Maybe they bring James Allison back for a more hands on role, as I think he's less involved than he was three or four years ago.

 

[tisza]

Aston Martin basically took Newey's number two from Red Bull, their head of aero Dan Fallows, which is why their car ended up going down the Red Bull philosophy. Obviously helped as he had a good insight into how the Red Bull worked and was able to apply that to his own work on the new Aston.

In general though, I think there's plenty of engineering talent in F1, but the problem is Adrian Newey has one huge advantage at the minute, in that he's the only one left with prior working experience with ground effect in F1. Hence he understood the porpoising issue before the like of Mercedes and Ferrari, because he'd seen before it in the 80's.

Clearly Mercedes have been hurt by the exodus of staff they went through, and I think it might be inevitable there could be changes for them. Maybe they bring James Allison back for a more hands on role, as I think he's less involved than he was three or four years ago.

This is where the "budget limits competition" argument falls down a bit. Aston Martin take a Mercedes engine and complete rear end Inc gearbox and suspension. They give them to a Newey protege and he uses them better than Mercedes does - a cocktail of red bull theory,/design and Mercedes technology.
Red Bull closed the gap when Mercedes know-how joined the team.
Mercedes persisting with a flawed design from last year shows gaps in management and technical leadership. They've obviously got the pieces just not putting them together properly.

 

[Paul Anthony]

This is where the "budget limits competition" argument falls down a bit. Aston Martin take a Mercedes engine and complete rear end Inc gearbox and suspension. They give them to a Newey protege and he uses them better than Mercedes does - a cocktail of red bull theory,/design and Mercedes technology.
Red Bull closed the gap when Mercedes know-how joined the team.
Mercedes persisting with a flawed design from last year shows gaps in management and technical leadership. They've obviously got the pieces just not putting them together properly.

Think that's a fair assessment. Feels like Mercedes have been suckered in by some data that isn't as accurate as it needs to be, and it wouldn't be the first time they've been far too focused on computer driven data instead of looking at the real world picture and seeing a different story. Although even Toto has now admitted that he doesn't believe the current philosophy will ever improve to the levels they were expecting.

I think (from a completely uneducated view, I hasten to add) the Aston's performance shows that if they were to move more towards a Red Bull philosophy, they could make it work, I mean as you say the rear end of that car under the chasis is basically a Mercedes, certainly could be enough to get closer than they will on their current path, anyway. How they do that within the cost cap limits though, I'm not sure. I doubt it's as simple as whacking a couple of sidepods on it.

 

[SkyBlueSoul]

I've got a similar feeling of apathy towards the sport as you guys now. Took a lot of effort to go to my mate's and watch it, I just haven't switched on to this season at all.

The end to 2021 really rankled with me, even though Max deserved the title overall, but at least it was a season-long battle between more than one driver/team. Last year going back to one-team, one driver dominance made me pay less attention than I might and it doesn't look like changing this year. I hate to sound like a fair weather fan (god knows I suffered through the "GP2 engine" years) but at least last year McLaren were fighting it out for 4th. I'm not sure watching Lando scrapping for the odd point here and there while they play catch up is enough to keep me going all season.

 

[Paul Anthony]

Looks like Leclerc is taking a grid pen in Suadi.

 

[Saddlebrains]

Looks like Leclerc is taking a grid pen in Suadi.

Pathetic at race 2 isn't it? They really are clowns that team

 

[hill83]

I actually prefer an hour of waffle about a 1mm higher winglet on the side of a Williams to the racing at the moment. Or at least the prospect of what the racing is going to be. Nice to see Alonso enjoying it again though.

 

[Paul Anthony]

Max says its unrealistic to expect him to fight for the win today.

I fully expect he'll be taking the lead well before halfway through....

 

[Saddlebrains]

I want an Alonso win

 

[Paul Anthony]

Ridiculous putting a safety car put for that.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

They came to the right decision on Alonso in the end. Class of Russell to call both penalties as harsh, when he was the beneficiary.

 

[Saddlebrains]

Lewis Really outdoing himself with the 'red bulls are way more dominant than i was' comments ...

 

[hill83]

He’s on about the difference when they open the DRS*

*apparently

Last track is known for that as well anyway, DRS zone is too long. Proper snore fest again this weekend

 

[Grendel]

He’s on about the difference when they open the DRS

Im developing a vague interest in the sport. Shouldn’t DRS just be stopped? I assume it’s a wind drag so cars with superior pace and torque can just glide away from the car in front? Without it you’d surely have a fairer race

 

[hill83]

Im developing a vague interest in the sport. Shouldn’t DRS just be stopped? I assume it’s a wind drag so cars with superior pace and torque can just glide away from the car in front? Without it you’d surely have a fairer race

It was a response to cars being unable to follow closely due to dirty air and a severe lack of overtaking. I don’t think it was ever meant to be kept for this long. The majority of overtakes don’t mean anything now.

 

[Paul Anthony]

Problem with DRS is if they ditched it, the only overtaking would occur during pitstops, for the most part anyway.

Which, to my mind anyway, is why Ross Brawn was premature declaring these rules a success. One of the longer term goals was to phase out DRS. And that looks no closer to happening. That and the whole we won't have one team dominating the sport again. Well, Ross. That went well didn't it...

 

[Grendel]

Problem with DRS is if they ditched it, the only overtaking would occur during pitstops, for the most part anyway.

Which, to my mind anyway, is why Ross Brawn was premature declaring these rules a success. One of the longer term goals was to phase out DRS. And that looks no closer to happening. That and the whole we won't have one team dominating the sport again. Well, Ross. That went well didn't it...

I know fuck all about it tbh. I used to have to go to Silverstone when Jaguar Racing was a thing and just hated it

I watched the last race a couple of years ago on SKY to see Hamilton win an 8th title - having never seen a race with him ever - to then see some act of robbery and a Dutch twat win. Then I watched last season hoping he’s going to wipe the smirk of his face which failed.

I’ve even invested in a mega TV and sound system now to see him win

Not happening is it? I love the SKY coverage it’s great circus but there has to be an equalisation somehow or it’s just going to be a turn off