USSR invades Ukraine. (5 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Come on Tony, I think this is for the other thread. We’ve proven we can remain involved/have an influence in nato which is the main driver for stuff like this. The decisions the government and the city have made in the past about oligarchs etc is nothing to do with Brexit more greed and potential corruption.

I do agree that Putin would have encouraged/influenced Brexit though, in the hope of splitting the west and in particular nato, but I don’t think that’s happened as everyone appears to be pulling in the same direction on this ?!

We’ve hardly been in line with the EU or the US (#globalbritain) for that matter on sanctions. Japan has done more than us to date. We’ve barely caught up with where the US was in 2014, the US has gone further so we’re still playing catch-up. You yourself attempted to distract with what about Germany the other day who then went the full hog. We’re are by far in the best place of all European countries to do the most not least because of golden passports, not least because we wash Putins money, not least because of Russian assets in the UK. London isn’t nicknamed Londongrad by accident. Over 20 years we’ve allowed our country to be infiltrated by Putin and his money men. Brexit served Putin two fold. Firstly it destabilised Europe and secondly it excludes the UK from proposed EU financial regulations and reforms that would have helped stop the UK being the world’s biggest facilitator of money laundering. Blue passports we could have had anyway we’re not a price worth paying for the benefit or Putin. Time to take the blinkers off.

 

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Was it fuck

Come on.

In the space of days the Taliban had retaken the country. And it's not like they're a well-trained, heavily-armed huge group with the latest technology and weaponry and backed financially by a superpower.

It was a colossal fuck-up.

 

[Evo1883]

The withdrawal from Afghanistan was a scandalous failure and showed Putin how weak the West has become.

Exactly

 

[CCFCSteve]

We’ve hardly been in line with the EU or the US (#globalbritain) for that matter on sanctions. Japan has done more than us to date. We’ve barely caught up with where the US was in 2014, the US has gone further so we’re still playing catch-up. You yourself attempted to distract with what about Germany the other day who then went the full hog. We’re are by far in the best place of all European countries to do the most not least because of golden passports, not least because we wash Putins money, not least because of Russian assets in the UK. London isn’t nicknamed Londongrad by accident. Over 20 years we’ve allowed our country to be infiltrated by Putin and his money men. Brexit served Putin two fold. Firstly it destabilised Europe and secondly it excludes the UK from proposed EU financial regulations and reforms that would have helped stop the UK being the world’s biggest facilitator of money laundering. Blue passports we could have had anyway we’re not a price worth paying for the benefit or Putin. Time to take the blinkers off.

We were allowing oligarchs over here before years before brexit though ?! Golden visas were a way to get rich people into the country so they would spend and be taxed here…crazy that there weren’t additional checks and balances though (like footballs pathetic fit and proper rules !).

Corbyn potentially getting in is a far more relevant point as he is anti nato (and could argue anti West). He stated the other day he felt we were provoking Russia ?! He wouldn’t have pushed to get nato together/try tk pressure Putin, implemented any sanctions or provided Ukraine with much needed military/defence support. It’s why a lot of people couldn’t have voted for him whatever his policies

Ive already said I’ll judge sanction situation after the next 24-48 hours. If we stay as we are I’d agree Russian corruption/influence could run worryingly deep. I hope that’s not the case

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I know this is serious but the thread title is such a joke.

Someone actually thinks the USSR still exists and that they (who Ukraine was a member of) have now attacked themselves?

I've always taken the title as being sarcastic and more about Putin's mindset.

If they genuinely thought the USSR existed then the title makes no sense, because Ukraine was part of it.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

We were allowing oligarchs over here before years before brexit though ?! Golden visas were a way to get rich people into the country so they would spend and be taxed here…crazy that there weren’t additional checks and balances though (like footballs pathetic fit and proper rules !).

Corbyn potentially getting in is a far more relevant point as he is anti nato (and could argue anti West). He stated the other day he felt we were provoking Russia ?! He wouldn’t have pushed to get nato together/try tk pressure Putin, implemented any sanctions or provided Ukraine with much needed military/defence support. It’s why a lot of people couldn’t have voted for him whatever his policies

Ive already said I’ll judge sanction situation after the next 24-48 hours. If we stay as we are I’d agree Russian corruption/influence could run worryingly deep. I hope that’s not the case

Really you seem to be saying that both could have compromised our position with Russia but in quite different ways

 

[chiefdave]

Imagine have campaigned for and voted brexit to stick two fingers up to the EU salivating at the prospect of the EU collapsing and align with Putin. Still. War in Europe was project fear.

Putin is pretty much using Dugin's Foundations of Geopolitics as a checklist. Separating the UK from Europe was just one item on the list to check off as is annexing Ukraine.

 

[SBT]

I know this is serious but the thread title is such a joke.

Someone actually thinks the USSR still exists and that they (who Ukraine was a member of) have now attacked themselves?

I think it was supposed to be edgy

 

[Hertsccfc]

Come on.

In the space of days the Taliban had retaken the country. And it's not like they're a well-trained, heavily-armed huge group with the latest technology and weaponry and backed financially by a superpower.

It was a colossal fuck-up.

Yes and we deserted so many of the people who had assisted us.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Really you seem to be saying that both could have compromised our position with Russia but in quite different ways

I’ve said greed and corruption (which pre dates brexit) may have. Let’s see what sanctions are. I’ve said Brexit hasn’t changed anything and that Corbyns anti nato position wouldve left us in a far weaker position of influence if he was in power

 

[tisza]

If he attacks a Nato state he is at war with Nato i.e the US which even he knows he can not win

Can easily take it in stages.
Thinking could be he can take then hold former territories in a negotiated peace?
Or how prepared are NATO to escalate it if it reached a potential nuclear stage?
History littered with cases where countries believed others would not get in involved in other people's conflicts.
It's a jump to assume Putin is rational. When he's threatening consequences that the world has never seen before you have to question his sanity.
Hitler invaded Russia when it never seemed rational because he was convinced he knew better than his military commanders. Looking at Putin it's hard not to assume that he believes that he can lose at anything.

 

[skybluetony176]

We were allowing oligarchs over here before years before brexit though ?! Golden visas were a way to get rich people into the country so they would spend and be taxed here…crazy that there weren’t additional checks and balances though (like footballs pathetic fit and proper rules !).

Corbyn potentially getting in is a far more relevant point as he is anti nato (and could argue anti West). He stated the other day he felt we were provoking Russia ?! He wouldn’t have pushed to get nato together/try tk pressure Putin, implemented any sanctions or provided Ukraine with much needed military/defence support. It’s why a lot of people couldn’t have voted for him whatever his policies

Ive already said I’ll judge sanction situation after the next 24-48 hours. If we stay as we are I’d agree Russian corruption/influence could run worryingly deep. I hope that’s not the case

I did say the last 20 years. In that period they’ve infiltrated the press, the Tories, the Brexit campaign, the House of Lords for crying out loud. They’re at the heart of UK establishment with influence in all aspects. James Cleverly was on Peston last night with the straw man argument that we shouldn’t confuse Russian born citizens with Putin cronies. We’ve given over 2500 Russians a golden ticket for the cost of £2M and not questioned where that money has come from. Surely you’re not naive enough to think that people in Russia don’t get rich enough to do that without Putins blessing. Boris put one Putin supporter in the House of Lords, a man considered a security risk by British intelligence, I can’t even say the Russian not the PM because he too is considered a security risk by British intelligence because of his links to these people. Honest foreigners living in this country are not considered security risks.

Corbyn didn’t and never will get in so it’s completely irrelevant. The very definition of a straw man argument. And again a Putin asset. He’ll be delighted that people are saying imagine if Corbyn got in while his actual asset is in.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I did say the last 20 years. In that period they’ve infiltrated the press, the Tories, the Brexit campaign, the House of Lords for crying out loud. They’re at the heart of UK establishment with influence in all aspects. James Cleverly was on Peston last night with the straw man argument that we shouldn’t confuse Russian born citizens with Putin cronies. We’ve given over 2500 Russians a golden ticket for the cost of £2M and not questioned where that money has come from. Surely you’re not naive enough to think that people in Russia don’t get rich enough to do that without Putins blessing. Boris put one Putin supporter in the House of Lords, a man considered a security risk by British intelligence, I can’t even say the Russian not the PM because he too is considered a security risk by British intelligence because of his links to these people. Honest foreigners living in this country are not considered security risks.

Corbyn didn’t and never will get in so it’s completely irrelevant. The very definition of a straw man argument. And again a Putin asset. He’ll be delighted that people are saying imagine if Corbyn got in while his actual asset is in.

I’ve already mentioned my concerns over greed and corruption and golden visas. My comment was that Brexit hasn’t/shouldn’t change our involvement or influence on these matters, Corbyn being PM would’ve (referring back to earlier exchange between you and earlsdon).

I’ve also stated on a few occasions the initial sanctions were poor/weak and I’d be concerned if they aren’t significantly ramped up over the next 24-48 hours.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I’ve already mentioned my concerns over greed and corruption and golden visas. My comment was that Brexit hasn’t/shouldn’t change our involvement or influence on these matters, Corbyn being PM would’ve (referring back to earlier exchange between you and earlsdon).

My point about Corbyn was that he wanted to scrap Trident, which is our only defence if Putin decides to go and use nukes. That isn´t something I would be getting complacent about at the moment given the mental state of the bloke. I actually don´t think people are taking this anywhere near seriously enough.

The arguments about brexit have no place here really, and it is just a stupid excuse from a person who thinks about nothing else but brexit for 23 hours of the day and tries to shoe horn it in to absolutely anything. It is actually very sad and I am certainly not going to be interacting with those arguments on this thread.

 

[Liquid Gold]

My point about Corbyn was that he wanted to scrap Trident, which is our only defence if Putin decides to go and use nukes. That isn´t something I would be getting complacent about at the moment given the mental state of the bloke. I actually don´t think people are taking this anywhere near seriously enough.

The arguments about brexit have no place here really, and it is just a stupid excuse from a person who thinks about nothing else but brexit for 23 hours of the day and tries to shoe horn it in to absolutely anything. It is actually very sad and I am certainly not going to be interacting with those arguments on this thread.

There is no defence if Putin decides to use nukes, the US will retaliate and the whole world is done for.

What the UK should focus on is having a small well trained and mobile force that can be reactive to any situation. If the Baltic states were to request support we should be able to have troops there in no time and that would be far more of a deterrent to Putin than the small stock of nuclear weapons we have compared to the thousands of modern ones the US have.

 

[David O'Day]

Can easily take it in stages.
Thinking could be he can take then hold former territories in a negotiated peace?
Or how prepared are NATO to escalate it if it reached a potential nuclear stage?
History littered with cases where countries believed others would not get in involved in other people's conflicts.
It's a jump to assume Putin is rational. When he's threatening consequences that the world has never seen before you have to question his sanity.
Hitler invaded Russia when it never seemed rational because he was convinced he knew better than his military commanders. Looking at Putin it's hard not to assume that he believes that he can lose at anything.

It doesn't work like that. The treaty means as soon as he invades a Nato country the rest of Nato will actively fight russia with troops etc. There is no ifs or buts about it.

 

[Bugsy]

The Kremlin says use of the word 'occupation' is unacceptable
The Kremlin says that it is not planning an occupation of Ukraine, and instead what Mr Putin wants is for the country to be neutral and not deploy offensive weapons.
It adds that Ukraine needs "ideally" to be liberated of "Nazis", and that the military operation needs to achieve "demilitarisation and denazification" of the country.
Mr Putin will decide how long its military operation in the country will last, it concluded.

cheeky fuckers they're the ones that forced it upon themselves to attack.

 

[SBT]

The arguments about brexit have no place here really, and it is just a stupid excuse from a person who thinks about nothing else but brexit for 23 hours of the day and tries to shoe horn it in to absolutely anything. It is actually very sad and I am certainly not going to be interacting with those arguments on this thread.

If only the Ukrainian military could harness this level of passive-aggression, the war would be over in hours.

 

[skybluetony176]

I’ve already mentioned my concerns over greed and corruption and golden visas. My comment was that Brexit hasn’t/shouldn’t change our involvement or influence on these matters, Corbyn being PM would’ve (referring back to earlier exchange between you and earlsdon).

I’ve also stated on a few occasions the initial sanctions were poor/weak and I’d be concerned if they aren’t significantly ramped up over the next 24-48 hours.

Of course it changed our involvement. It weekend the EU, that strengthened Putin at least in his own deranged mind if not in his country, in Europe and indeed the world. It halted the threat of checks and balances on the UK’s financial industry moving forward ensuring Putin a continued base for his money. He hopefully has undone the latter with his actions (we’ll find out at 12 apparently now). But everything about Brexit from reducing our share of world trade by 15% to destabilising Europe to weakening our place in the world to massaging Putins ego has been an asset to to Putin.

I’ll say again. The infiltration of the UK has been going on for 20 years, the Tories have been in charge now for 12 years and have not only failed to address it they’ve allowed them into the establishment more than anyone could have thought possible. More so on Boris’ watch than any. People need to start questioning the people who sold them the already failed experiment that’s Brexit and look at who has influence on them people. The dots are pretty easy to connect. Not just our current government either.

 

[Frostie]

I mean seriously Telegraph, wtf!?

 

[Bugsy]

Peace on our continent has been shattered' - NATO secretary-general
In a dire message for Europe, NATO secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg has said "peace on our continent has been shattered".
"We now have war in Europe on a scale and of a type we thought belonged to history," he told a news conference.
Describing the situation as a "grave moment for the security of Europe", he said Russia's invasion is "putting countless innocent lives at risk".
"This is a deliberate, cold-blooded and long-planned invasion," he said.
The Kremlin's intentions are "clear for the world to see", he said, calling on Russia to withdraw its invasion.
Mr Stoltenberg said an attack on one NATO ally would trigger a response from the alliance.
Reiterating a statement from NATO earlier, he said more troops would be sent to the eastern flank.

 

[Jagmannn]

Sting song lyric from Russians 1985......Believe me when i say to you ,I hope the Russians love there children too

 

[Moff]

We’ve hardly been in line with the EU or the US (#globalbritain) for that matter on sanctions. Japan has done more than us to date. We’ve barely caught up with where the US was in 2014, the US has gone further so we’re still playing catch-up.

The three Oligarchs we placed sanctions against had been sanctioned by the US long before this, like you said we've barely caught up with where the US was in 2014. Our sanctions thus far are pathetic.

I recall Ian Hislop making a comment quite a while ago about how Russian money was awash in bankrolling some of our Politicians, particularly the Government, which makes their current actions questionable and explains their totally inept sanctions.

 

[Sky Blue Harry H]

I see Trump has piped up, saying Putin didn't want to do this, but saw America as weak. Like he would have done anything - he was (and is) the biggest Putin apologist around. My brother worked in America for a few years and says he worked with some Americans who asked where he was from, and he said England, and they asked which State that was in. They have a really insular view of the world. If it's outside the USA, they know (or care) little about it.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

My point about Corbyn was that he wanted to scrap Trident, which is our only defence if Putin decides to go and use nukes. That isn´t something I would be getting complacent about at the moment given the mental state of the bloke. I actually don´t think people are taking this anywhere near seriously enough.

The arguments about brexit have no place here really, and it is just a stupid excuse from a person who thinks about nothing else but brexit for 23 hours of the day and tries to shoe horn it in to absolutely anything. It is actually very sad and I am certainly not going to be interacting with those arguments on this thread.

It's not a defence, it's a deterrent. If a nuke is sent by Russia Trident has failed. It will not protect anyone from the effects of that attack. All we could do is fire some back before we got obliterated to destroy parts of Russia as retaliation.

As much as I wish such weapons didn't exist, if we don't have our own we are at the mercy of others. Look at the likes of Japan and what Trump was demanding of them in return for U.S. 'protection'. Yet you can guarantee if Japan had said "we'll just make our own nukes then' he'd have been first in line to denounce the plan and demand an end to it.

Fact is our nuclear arsenal is costly, small and ageing. It's a deterrent but in comparison to others it's not great.

 

[AOM]

I mean seriously Telegraph, wtf!?

"Here are 5 reasons why Coventry will become a nuclear wasteland"

What an absolute pointless and unhelpful article. Not that we'd expect anything else

 

[SBT]

Gotta love those clickbait agency articles. I spent too much time playing with the Nukemap yesterday.

 

[David O'Day]

Johnson about to appear on TV, let's hope he has finally grown some balls

 

[NorthernWisdom]

My point about Corbyn was that he wanted to scrap Trident, which is our only defence if Putin decides to go and use nukes.

Not much of a defence tbh

 

[Ian1779]

We look (and will continue to look) weak as long as we take dodgy money from corrupt people.
This is the truth that this government doesn’t want to face up to.

Show some strength and real leadership by ending it all today. Then whatever sanctions we put in place starts to have more gravitas.

 

[skyblue1991]

 

[David O'Day]

If Johnson is being truthful about being in it until the end and the end only coming once Putin has lost then we can all get behind that,

 

[tisza]

It doesn't work like that. The treaty means as soon as he invades a Nato country the rest of Nato will actively fight russia with troops etc. There is no ifs or buts about it.

Well aware of what the Treaty says. Has it ever been tested? If Russia moves 20km into all the border states and stops would it lead to all out war? 30km? 100km?
As you say it brings in the US but it's a long way to move resources in a short period of time. It would not be a conventional war like we've seen before.

 

[Otis]

"Here are 5 reasons why Coventry will become the new capital of England"

What an absolute pointless and unhelpful article. Not that we'd expect anything else

There you go. That's much better.

 

[David O'Day]

Well aware of what the Treaty says. Has it ever been tested? If Russia moves 20km into all the border states and stops would it lead to all out war? 30km? 100km?
As you say it brings in the US but it's a long way to move resources in a short period of time. It would not be a conventional war like we've seen before.

Stoltenberg has just issued a statement saying if he attacks one member he attacks all and they are moving more forces to the eastern edge of the alliance.