Ethics Commitee Meeting Tomorrow (6 Viewers)

[Ian1779]

I think compensation means that ?
The rest is stating the obvious.

I'm sure the council will have invested their money in some 'ethical' business (like weapon selling/manufacture) to ensure we won't have to personally go any pay Joy any of our hard earned monies.

 

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[covcity4life]

give it a rest italia. you were wrong, just move on now

 

[italiahorse]

give it a rest italia. you were wrong, just move on now

I can't give it a rest. I have so much knowledge to pass on.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The CCC are already out by around £10m on their Initial cash Investment and potentially a further £14-4m had they struck a deal with SISU
On a personal (councillors) and citywide level I think that would have been unpalatable to swallow
I think Italia Is right when he says this Is timed to feed into the final round of the JR
which should have been heard in October but is now set for February
God I hope this doesn't seep into of the club as we push on and hopefully maintain our push up the league.

You're double counting wingy. The council wouldn't have needed to lend another £14.4m had the SISU plan to distress the YB loan gone to plan. It was ACL who had loaned £21m in lieu of paying rent to the council. They lent £21m and paid the lump to the council as a lease premium who repaid their own prudential borrowing.

The initial £10m investment hasn't been recovered by the Wasps deal.

 

[chiefdave]

If for a long shot they did win, you can guarantee that is how it would be spun. You already have people on here saying how much each man, woman and child in the city would have to give sisu.

A council should have insurance in place for this sort of thing so the only actual financial hit would be an increase in insurance premiums.

 

[Nick]

A council should have insurance in place for this sort of thing so the only actual financial hit would be an increase in insurance premiums.

That doesn't sound as good as making out that it is coming directly from the tax payer though. It could have even have a section in the Council Tax breakdowns to show how much is going to SISU.

 

[Astute]

I always said that sisu would lose.

Why do you keep lying?

Do you think that we have all forgotten you saying it?

 

[SkyBlueZack]

Just a thought after what FP said. The loan was originally 21m but was paid down during the years the stadium was open. Any profit made was used to pay the loan off quicker. Now bearing in mind ACL only ever made profit because of the football club. We technically paid the loan down quicker and kept the place open. Now in conjunction with everything else that has occured, do people not realise just how shafted we've been?

 

[Ian1779]

Just a thought after what FP said. The loan was originally 21m but was paid down during the years the stadium was open. Any profit made was used to pay the loan off quicker. Now bearing in mind ACL only ever made profit because of the football club. We technically paid the loan down quicker and kept the place open. Now in conjunction with everything else that has occured, do people not realise just how shafted we've been?

It's similar to the idea that if we had stayed at Ricoh for full 50 years on original deal we would have paid £65m - owned 0%
and not earnt a penny in other revenue streams.

 

[italiahorse]

Just a thought after what FP said. The loan was originally 21m but was paid down during the years the stadium was open. Any profit made was used to pay the loan off quicker. Now bearing in mind ACL only ever made profit because of the football club. We technically paid the loan down quicker and kept the place open. Now in conjunction with everything else that has occured, do people not realise just how shafted we've been?

We should have kept our share in ACL then as was originally intended instead of selling it too Higgs.

The more I look at this the more I think Sisu needed to have negotiated better when they took over.
The Higgs share should have been in the pot as well as the stadium rent and lease.
They just took on the previous owners mess.

 

[italiahorse]

It's similar to the idea that if we had stayed at Ricoh for full 50 years on original deal we would have paid £65m - owned 0%
and not earnt a penny in other revenue streams.

Even more reason that we should have bought the Higgs share at the first opportunity..
That way we have a say on what rent we pay and access to incomes and 'profits'

Interesting to know what Sisu would do if they could rewind.

 

[SkyBlueZack]

We couldn't keep our share due to the financial risks in previous years which you were advocating earlier? Weren't SISU's bid only approved by the council as they didn't want to pursue the stadium?

 

[wingy]

You're double counting wingy. The council wouldn't have needed to lend another £14.4m had the SISU plan to distress the YB loan gone to plan. It was ACL who had loaned £21m in lieu of paying rent to the council. They lent £21m and paid the lump to the council as a lease premium who repaid their own prudential borrowing.

The initial £10m investment hasn't been recovered by the Wasps deal.

Yes you're right fp,was referring to the refinance which came through CCC borrowing.

 

[Nick]

We couldn't keep our share due to the financial risks in previous years which you were advocating earlier? Weren't SISU's bid only approved by the council as they didn't want to pursue the stadium?

Apparently other people were put off because they were interested in the Ricoh, whereas SISU weren't then. I can't remember the source so don't quote me on it.

 

[fernandopartridge]

We should have kept our share in ACL then as was originally intended instead of selling it too Higgs.

The more I look at this the more I think Sisu needed to have negotiated better when they took over.
The Higgs share should have been in the pot as well as the stadium rent and lease.
They just took on the previous owners mess.

I agree we should have retained our share in ACL, it wasn't SISU who sold it remember.

It was the board at the time because of some unspecified debts. My suspicion has always been that the club's debts were to certain members of the club's board at the time who wanted to retain an interest in those debts either way.

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

I agree we should have retained our share in ACL, it wasn't SISU who sold it remember.

It was the board at the time because of some unspecified debts. My suspicion has always been that the club's debts were to certain members of the club's board at the time who wanted to retain an interest in those debts either way.

Spot on I reckon. I also suspect that something financial might have gone on with the rent agreement as nobody in their right mind would agree to the original terms would they?

 

[chiefdave]

Apparently other people were put off because they were interested in the Ricoh, whereas SISU weren't then. I can't remember the source so don't quote me on it.

It was just reported as a fact at the time across local media. Don't think anyone realised the significance so it wasn't questioned. The American lot (Manhattan Group?) had a meeting with the council and quickly got on a plane back to the States never to be heard from again. There was reports of another group meeting with the council and they walked away straight after as well saying CCC were impossible to work with - for some reason that line always stuck in my memory.

It's all well and good saying they should have purchased on day one but that might not have been possible. As bad as things have been if SISU had insisted on that and CCC had refused what would have happened had SISU, the last remaining interested party, walked away?

 

[thewards5579]

can somebody sensibly briefly describe the purpose of this hearing, what are possible outcomes, what relevance it has to any other ongoing legal disputes and whether it has any impact on existing Ricoh/ACL ownership/tenancy?

If it can be proven CCC are heavily biased against SISU, then the case for underhand dealing with Wasps and secret meetings involving only a few select councilors thereby not allowing SISU the full information could be seen as a deliberate move to stop SISU from being able to make an offer for the arena.

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[Astute]

It's all well and good saying they should have purchased on day one but that might not have been possible. As bad as things have been if SISU had insisted on that and CCC had refused what would have happened had SISU, the last remaining interested party, walked away?

How about 1 paragraph about our time under SISU?

They had full rights from day 1 to purchase our 50% back. But it was operation Prem that they saw as important. Get to the Prem and they would have made a massive amount of money. And by the time they saw that in the long term they needed the Ricoh they had wasted so much on operation Prem that they tried to go back on a deal that was made to get 50% the Ricoh. Things went from bad to worse. They took us to Northampton to put pressure on the other sides. This caused all communications to stop. They all take the piss out of each other. SISU don't want the Ricoh as they are building their own stadium. CCC sell to Wasps. The lot of them are a bunch of cunts.

 

[Ian1779]

Even more reason that we should have bought the Higgs share at the first opportunity..
That way we have a say on what rent we pay and access to incomes and 'profits'

Interesting to know what Sisu would do if they could rewind.

You also have to consider that at around or just after the time SISU arrived, ACL were quoting £24m just for the additional revenue streams at the stadium

 

[italiahorse]

If it can be proven CCC are heavily biased against SISU, then the case for underhand dealing with Wasps and secret meetings involving only a few select councilors thereby not allowing SISU the full information could be seen as a deliberate move to stop SISU from being able to make an offer for the arena.

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Nothing could stop them making an offer for the stadium surely ?
CCC invited any sensible offer.

As I said before, you can make up any story from what we have seen already.

 

[Grendel]

How about 1 paragraph about our time under SISU?

They had full rights from day 1 to purchase our 50% back. But it was operation Prem that they saw as important. Get to the Prem and they would have made a massive amount of money. And by the time they saw that in the long term they needed the Ricoh they had wasted so much on operation Prem that they tried to go back on a deal that was made to get 50% the Ricoh. Things went from bad to worse. They took us to Northampton to put pressure on the other sides. This caused all communications to stop. They all take the piss out of each other. SISU don't want the Ricoh as they are building their own stadium. CCC sell to Wasps. The lot of them are a bunch of cunts.

Operation premiership was the brainchild of the owners prior to sisu.

 

[chiefdave]

They had full rights from day 1 topurchase our 50% back.

CCC could veto that sale couldn't they?

But it was operation Prem that they saw as important. Getto the Prem and they would have made a massive amount of money.

Exactly, SISU were the only interested party who did not require stadium ownership. Is it coincidence that they were the preferred bidder by CCC?

And by the time they saw that in the long term they needed the Ricoh they had wasted so much on operation Prem that they tried togo back on a deal that was made to get 50% the Ricoh.

In part I think you're right. For me there's three distinct phases under SISU. First we had Ranson who at least had a plan, even if it was one that didn't work. That plan didn't involve stadium ownership so it wasn't an issue. The mistake here could have been when the money run out there was no contingency fund so rather than sticking to the plan players started being sold off to cover the shortfall. There was only one way that was going to end.

Then there's the Orange Ken disaster. I can see how we ended up with him. Probably the only other football person SISU knew due to their dealings with him at Southampton. The guy was clueless, although to be fair from day one he did say a stake in the stadium was needed. Looking back you wonder if that "we've got a meeting with the council tomorrow' that he came out with onday one has more to it then was thought at the time.

Finally we get to Fisher. By the time he pitched up everyone was sick to the back teeth of SISU. Everytime he opened his mouth he seemed to put his foot in it and was ridiculed by the majority, myself included. Frustratingly as time has passed a decent chunk of what he has said, particularly relating to the Ricoh and ACL, has turned out to be true. This is where the 'PR war' comes into it. What would have happened if the fanbase had united behind Fisher against the council?

Things went from bad to worse. They took us to Northampton to put pressure on the other sides. This caused all communications to stop. They all take the piss out of each other. SISU don't want the Ricoh as they are building their own stadium. CCC sell to Wasps. The lot of them are abunch of cunts.

Personally I suspect that things went sour before that and the threat and subsequent move was an attempt to force CCC and Higgs to make a deal acceptable to SISU. I'd love to know what happened at the meetings. If Fisher was going in stating I know ACL is reliant on CCFC, I know the bank is getting twitchy about the loan etc and ACL, Higgs and CCC turned round and said he'd got it all wrong, as they did publically, how do you negotiate from there?

I think SISU were wrong to say they were building a stadium - and I don't for a minute believe they are planning to or that anyone involved thought it was serious. That doesn't let CCC off the hook. The longer this goes on and the more information that comes out the worse they look. Now we've got the CT dragged into it. As with Fisher Reid was getting ridiculed but it looks like he was right.

 

[chiefdave]

You also have to consider that at around or just after the time SISU arrived, ACL were quoting £24m just for the additional revenue streams at the stadium

It's interesting, well annoying actually, when you look back at just matchday revenues being offered for £24m and the formula price for the Higgs share of £10m, or even what we would have paid over the term of the rental agreement and compare it to what anyone else put in. Be that Wasps, CCC or Higgs.

We've certainly come off the worse out of everyone involved.

 

[MusicDating]

Personally I suspect that things went sour before that and the threat and subsequent move was an attempt to force CCC and Higgs to make a deal acceptable to SISU. I'd love to know what happened at the meetings. If Fisher was going in stating I know ACL is reliant on CCFC, I know the bank is getting twitchy about the loan etc and ACL, Higgs and CCC turned round and said he'd got it all wrong, as they did publically, how do you negotiate from there?

Indeedy. What caused it to go from the Heads of Terms being agreed to a media war/moving to Sixfields?

I seem to recall one of the JR judges saying that both parties didn't have an appetite to complete the deal. It seemed to really unravel from that time.

 

[Grendel]

Indeedy. What caused it to go from the Heads of Terms being agreed to a media war/moving to Sixfields?

I seem to recall one of the JR judges saying that both parties didn't have an appetite to complete the deal. It seemed to really unravel from that time.

About the time Richardson was allegedly having meetings with CRFC about purchasing the Ricoh?

 

[Astute]

Operation premiership was the brainchild of the owners prior to sisu.

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/6212-An-interview-with-Ray-Ranson!

 

[Astute]

About the time Richardson was allegedly having meetings with CRFC about purchasing the Ricoh?

And after when SISU went behind the backs of everyone and tried to take the mortgage over.

 

[Nick]

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/6212-An-interview-with-Ray-Ranson!

Ranson says:

However, the blunt talking 48 year old northerner would rather not talk in detail about the mistakes made by the club’s managements of the past and you will definitely not find any signs promoting Operation Premiership around the club

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Coventry_City_F.C.#Operation_Premiership

 

[Nick]

Which Higgs was it that had half of ACL, was it The Alan Edward Higgs Charity or The Alan Higgs Centre Trust?

(Edit: Was the 1st one)

 

[Grendel]

Astute for once makes an attempt at providing a link as evidence and clearly has been taking lessons off skybluetony

 

[Grendel]

And after when SISU went behind the backs of everyone and tried to take the mortgage over.

That's not what the documents released suggests. Have you read them? I thought sisu had no money - yet could take the loan over?

 

[Astute]

Ranson says:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Coventry_City_F.C.#Operation_Premiership

The bold decision created immediate cost savings and efficiency improvements but marked the first step in his strategy to eventually take up the option of a 50 per cent stake in the Arena. Although the objective of Ricoh Arena ownership is still on Ranson’s personal radar, together with a Premiership placing within two to three years, his determined but understated style is to quietly progress discussions behind the scenes with the stakeholders in the Arena who are very much aware that 50 per cent ownership and eventually total acquisition of the stadium in the longer term is very much on the Chairman’s wish list.

 

[Astute]

That's not what the documents released suggests. Have you read them? I thought sisu had no money - yet could take the loan over?

Says the person who twists everything to make it look as though he is right.

 

[Nick]

The bold decision created immediate cost savings and efficiency improvements but marked the first step in his strategy to eventually take up the option of a 50 per cent stake in the Arena. Although the objective of Ricoh Arena ownership is still on Ranson’s personal radar, together with a Premiership placing within two to three years, his determined but understated style is to quietly progress discussions behind the scenes with the stakeholders in the Arena who are very much aware that 50 per cent ownership and eventually total acquisition of the stadium in the longer term is very much on the Chairman’s wish list.

That wasn't "operation premiership" though.