Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Many of my arguments come from what he did last season. And I do agree with most of his decisions this season, he just has no tools to do the job. I have stressed the positive sides as well as SISU-factors.
Fans Support of Andy Thorn: A sign of just how far we have fallen? (3 Viewers)
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Many of my arguments come from what he did last season. And I do agree with most of his decisions this season, he just has no tools to do the job. I have stressed the positive sides as well as SISU-factors.
The Reverend Skyblue
Well-Known Member
we can't keep on saying Thorny saved us last year so he deserves all our support this year, last season is in the past ,its the future that only matters. A lot on here would love Thorny to gt it right and take us into the future , but for me, and the first question i would like him to answer is what the fuck does he see in Baker and Bell.How can he justify those two names on the teamsheet, what do they give us, what games do you feel they played well.
My personal anger is towards SISU and once that is sorted then Thorny may well do better once the pressure deflates, but he is learning a job he knows little about and he's learning in the most difficult circumstances one could imagine, which isn't his fault I know, but this period must be the most critical in the history of OUR great club, the worst owners ever,no money to spend, no hope, poor squad, no stadium to create funds, and we are scrapping for our lives,totally impossible situation for anyone to learn there craft.
If we keep Thorny then for me he needs help, and sooner rather than later, someone with managerial experience, someone to bounce ideas off, someone to take some strain off him,take some workload off him, someone with knowledge on how to get the best out of players who don't have the skill and experience of really good professionals.A shoulder to cry on,as he must feel like crying watching Baker and Bell go about there business. Someone with Knowledge of working with footballers ego's and knowledge of the day to day running of the club, someone to share workload and allow Thorny to have all his time on the practice pitch, where he should be.
The Rev
My personal anger is towards SISU and once that is sorted then Thorny may well do better once the pressure deflates, but he is learning a job he knows little about and he's learning in the most difficult circumstances one could imagine, which isn't his fault I know, but this period must be the most critical in the history of OUR great club, the worst owners ever,no money to spend, no hope, poor squad, no stadium to create funds, and we are scrapping for our lives,totally impossible situation for anyone to learn there craft.
If we keep Thorny then for me he needs help, and sooner rather than later, someone with managerial experience, someone to bounce ideas off, someone to take some strain off him,take some workload off him, someone with knowledge on how to get the best out of players who don't have the skill and experience of really good professionals.A shoulder to cry on,as he must feel like crying watching Baker and Bell go about there business. Someone with Knowledge of working with footballers ego's and knowledge of the day to day running of the club, someone to share workload and allow Thorny to have all his time on the practice pitch, where he should be.
The Rev
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
3 wins in 10 last year wasn't it?
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
What about what he did last season? The players were better than this, and he had us doing much better than we had previously with those players. Indications then were that with the same quality, he'd do the same now. WHAT'S CHANGED SINCE THEN? Has he become "a bad manager overnight?"
A lot of you who are in the THORN-OUT camp liked him and rated him last season, admit it. If you didn't rate him for what he did last season, well then frankly I am no longer able to reason with you! (Not you OSB, that's a general "you" to all those reading)!
Otis
Well-Known Member
What we need right now more than anything else is a side that is at least motivated enough to be able to go out and play with a bit of passion and chase and harry and compete. If we had the same mentality of a lower league side playing higher opposition in the cup then maybe we would have a few more points on the board. We need to treat more games like they are a cup final. Show some balls and grit and determination and fight for the bloody ball!! We started to do it in the 2nd half on Saturday. We were already two goals down by then though. Never seen a City side so not up for games as in this season.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Honeymoon period! New manager, players playing with freedom, results improve. Happens all the time. New appointment, upturn in fortunes.
Opposition teams now know how we play this season and have made adjustments and now we have become predictable and pretty clueless We have been totally sussed out and as with Boothroyd last year, we have no Plan B.
I would wholeheartedly love Andy Thorn to turn things around and show he at least has a tiny ounce of tactical nouse. but its time to face facts, although he does not have the tools, his coaching and his tactics have seen us drop 13 points from winning positions this season, have seen us concede goal after goal following defensive errors, basic errors of positioning and knowing what each player is meant to be doing on the pitch. And don't get me started on the positioning of the front 2.
The inability and stubbornness to change tactics from this wonderful diamond is costing us week after week as IT DOESN'T SUIT OUR PLAYERS, and this is part of the reason that they all look so crap, just like they looked crap under boothroyd - you HAVE to play to the sum of your parts.
I am so sick of all this ''he doesn't have the players'', '' we have no money'', ''no-one else could do better'' - wake up, how could an experienced, adaptable manager with at least some coaching badges possibly NOT do better?
The inability and stubbornness to change tactics from this wonderful diamond is costing us week after week as IT DOESN'T SUIT OUR PLAYERS, and this is part of the reason that they all look so crap, just like they looked crap under boothroyd - you HAVE to play to the sum of your parts.
I am so sick of all this ''he doesn't have the players'', '' we have no money'', ''no-one else could do better'' - wake up, how could an experienced, adaptable manager with at least some coaching badges possibly NOT do better?
BINGO! bang on the money.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
said at the time that the true worth of AT would become apparent when the "new manager boost" had worn off. I also think that the change of style gave the team a real boost after Hoofroyd - got to credit AT with that - and it was done with some of our stars missing in that 10 games. As you know I tend to be level headed and a little cautious in the opinions i spout so i wasnt carried away in AT euphoria. I knew this season would be harder even with financial backing. The reduction of finance is no surprise to be honest but then finance is my game and I could see the signs just didnt expect it to be almost a total lack
What I didnt factor in was SISU not allowing any real signings which has hampered AT greatly this season. Many here thought AT to be the best thing since sliced bread at the end of last season, and you have to credit him with getting enough results to keep us up. 5 draws, 3 wins 2 losses is pretty decent but it isnt Championship winning form (14 out of 30 points). Even so some of those results could have gone against us eg Watford at home or Portsmouth away, Scunthorpe was a poor performance too.... but thats football isnt it
This season has been much tougher it was always going to be - there has been no boost as a new manager, no boost from a new system of play and precious little boost in new players. Teams worked us out found ways round our formation that AT was at times slow to react to, that isnt about finance that is about working with what we have to make the system appropriate to circumstance & squad. Think it was the Ipswich game that started alarm bells ringing because that wasnt just failure on the pitch that night.
So yes he did well last season for 10 games in better circumstances but the true worth of a manager is found in adversity. I am keeping an open mind about AT for the moment
What I didnt factor in was SISU not allowing any real signings which has hampered AT greatly this season. Many here thought AT to be the best thing since sliced bread at the end of last season, and you have to credit him with getting enough results to keep us up. 5 draws, 3 wins 2 losses is pretty decent but it isnt Championship winning form (14 out of 30 points). Even so some of those results could have gone against us eg Watford at home or Portsmouth away, Scunthorpe was a poor performance too.... but thats football isnt it
This season has been much tougher it was always going to be - there has been no boost as a new manager, no boost from a new system of play and precious little boost in new players. Teams worked us out found ways round our formation that AT was at times slow to react to, that isnt about finance that is about working with what we have to make the system appropriate to circumstance & squad. Think it was the Ipswich game that started alarm bells ringing because that wasnt just failure on the pitch that night.
So yes he did well last season for 10 games in better circumstances but the true worth of a manager is found in adversity. I am keeping an open mind about AT for the moment
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Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
And whoever finishes top isn't a winner, it's that the other 23 teams are losers?
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
No plan B? He was hammered the other day for making too many tactical switches in game! We used THREE formations on Saturday.
I just would like to know: how many of those who want him out thought the same last season? Because you were conspicuous by your absence, both on here and on the CWR phone-ins. If you can at least admit that you are speaking with hindsight, then you'll surely be able to understand why some of us rate him so highly?
Clive and Geoff used to say at the start of the season that even the most blinkered fan would understand that the present situation can't be blamed on the manager. Obviously that's changed now we are in the relegation zone.
I just would like to know: how many of those who want him out thought the same last season? Because you were conspicuous by your absence, both on here and on the CWR phone-ins. If you can at least admit that you are speaking with hindsight, then you'll surely be able to understand why some of us rate him so highly?
Clive and Geoff used to say at the start of the season that even the most blinkered fan would understand that the present situation can't be blamed on the manager. Obviously that's changed now we are in the relegation zone.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
He changed the diamond after 15 minutes in Saturday when it was still 0-0 so he did change tactics.
Also I agree some of his tactical decisions have been strange, especially not using subs to kill of a games. However, players will make individual errors and it just so happens that most of them are costing us points. Murphy cost us points with a fumble at palace and was at fault for a goal on saturday, juke skied a penalty which cost us 2 points. McPake and Cameron have made big errors in the last two games.
Was about terry's slip or jonny evans sending off? Are they the managers fault.
I agree that some of the tactics have been wrong but to lay then entire blame for points dropped at thorn is wrong-the player have to take some of the blame.
@richh87
Member
I think the diamond suits the players at our disposal very well. We have only a handful of experienced midfielders and little or no width. When we played 4-4-2 it was criticized because McSheffrey let us down defensively and Baker & Bell didn't have enough pace.
We all know the squad is patheticly weak and inexperienced. To blame the manager and ignore that is silly.He may not be perfect - but who is? I dread to think what Boothroyd etc would have done with these players.
It's the inexperience that is costing us. As some of you have said we've given away lots of points from winning positions. Once the players are out there on the pitch the older heads guide the youngsters through games and deliver consistent performances.
We have the youngest team in professional football and it's full of kids who aren't ready yet - no matter how much potential they have. Look at Bigi for instance; bags of talent but jumps into a stupid red card challenge because he's young and stupid.
The biggest problem is we don't really have any older heads; which is solely SISU's fault.
We all know the squad is patheticly weak and inexperienced. To blame the manager and ignore that is silly.He may not be perfect - but who is? I dread to think what Boothroyd etc would have done with these players.
It's the inexperience that is costing us. As some of you have said we've given away lots of points from winning positions. Once the players are out there on the pitch the older heads guide the youngsters through games and deliver consistent performances.
We have the youngest team in professional football and it's full of kids who aren't ready yet - no matter how much potential they have. Look at Bigi for instance; bags of talent but jumps into a stupid red card challenge because he's young and stupid.
The biggest problem is we don't really have any older heads; which is solely SISU's fault.
Otis
Well-Known Member
No Plan B because he may move players around but we still continue to play too deep and still continue to play with a big gap between the front two and the midfield and still continue to pas the ball predominately in our own half.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Sorry but that post doesn't make any sense.
You want people to admit to wanting him out last season when we were doing well and everyone was happy and obviously as a result no-one wanted him out?
Otis
Well-Known Member
Well obviously no sane fan would blame the manager for any of the 4 goals. That's not what people are saying. They are not talking about individual players making mistakes, which Thorn obviously has no control over, they are talking about systems and formations and tactics. Two completely different things.
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
Well thanks to the guy who started the post because of the great read it has made.
The initial reason I was always anti-Thorn is because I do not divorce him from SISU I see him as ultimately the SISU puppett and the "friendly" mouthpiece to appease the fans. The good cop against bad cop. Thorn in my view will be happy to play the role as like the Roy O'Donavan's of this world he will not be taken seriously elsewhere. He is a canny guy in some respects. He saw the criticiscm of Boothroyd so immediately embarked on the entertaining football motto.
Well, this team has scored the least goals of any football league team. We are matched only by Plymouth and Doncaster who are bottom of their respective leagues. Not too entertaining.
The Peter Reid comparison has nothing to do with who he succeded or his squad, the point is as he is viewed as an experienced manager if he was in charge today with the same squad and same funds he would be lambasted. Thorne gets away with it as he gives the fans a wave, he is a cheekie chappie and he is inexperienced. Sorry my only interest is somehow to survive or we are facing terminal meltdown. If I am drowning in the water and there is a 1% chance of staying afloat by attaching myself to a different piece of dritwood I would take it.
We should unite and do the same. We cannot influence SISU. With good old AT we are sunk regardless.
The initial reason I was always anti-Thorn is because I do not divorce him from SISU I see him as ultimately the SISU puppett and the "friendly" mouthpiece to appease the fans. The good cop against bad cop. Thorn in my view will be happy to play the role as like the Roy O'Donavan's of this world he will not be taken seriously elsewhere. He is a canny guy in some respects. He saw the criticiscm of Boothroyd so immediately embarked on the entertaining football motto.
Well, this team has scored the least goals of any football league team. We are matched only by Plymouth and Doncaster who are bottom of their respective leagues. Not too entertaining.
The Peter Reid comparison has nothing to do with who he succeded or his squad, the point is as he is viewed as an experienced manager if he was in charge today with the same squad and same funds he would be lambasted. Thorne gets away with it as he gives the fans a wave, he is a cheekie chappie and he is inexperienced. Sorry my only interest is somehow to survive or we are facing terminal meltdown. If I am drowning in the water and there is a 1% chance of staying afloat by attaching myself to a different piece of dritwood I would take it.
We should unite and do the same. We cannot influence SISU. With good old AT we are sunk regardless.
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Read-this-slowly..it makes sense.
If you want him out, is he no longer the same person as that you wanted in last year?
I'm trying to get people to admit that they wanted him as manager, and are now blaming the manager because it is the easier thing to do. I am attempting to highlight their hypocrisy. There wasn't anyone going "Thorn? Oh no, he's not a proper manager" then, was there? There wasn't anyone criticising his tactics when he had a bit of:
1)Quality
2)Options
3)Depth
I am trying to highlight what has changed; has the team been weakened, or has Thorn become a bad manager overnight? Did you think he was a good manager last season, and now he is crap? Don't you see anything in the squad being weakened? Think 3 out of a back 4 being teenagers is stronger than last seasons defence? That this is somehow AT's fault?
Nobody said Thorn was a rubbish manager last season, now it's the hip and cool thang to do. At the start of the season, we nearly all agreed it was mission impossible. Now it's Thorn's fault. Fickle, no?
You're all blaming someone because..you've got to blame someone, right?
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Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
He doesn't "get away with it", he gets loads of grief about things entirely beyond his control and would KILL for a 10th of Monkey Heads transfer budget. He isn't SISU, come on...honestly, if he's a "yes man", how exactly would a "no man" make even a jot of difference to how the board act? Oh that's right, he'd be fired...
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Am I the only one who to this day still thinks Dowie was unlucky to be sacked? He had 49 games for us in overlapping seasons, over a 46 game season he averaged 64 points.
Otis
Well-Known Member
No-one said Thorn was a rubbish manager last season because he was new at the game and hadn't managed before and fans were happy to give him time. He also had that honeymoon period and with that came an upturn in our fortunes. Why on earth would anyone want him out when he had only just started in the role and was getting results?
The nature of the beast is that you do only question things when they are starting to go wrong. when things are going right why on earth then would you want to get rid of anyone? There is no hypocrisy. Fans backed him last year and gave him a chance but are now questioning his ability. It is nothing to do with the weakening of the side. We all accept that. This is about tactics.
We must be the easiest side for any opposing team to plan against.
1. They will pass the ball around a lot but nearly all of this will be in their own half so just be patient and we will get the ball back quickly.
2. They always leave a big gap between the front two and the midfield. You should be fine to be able to deal with any knock downs and flick ons as no-one will be supporting.
3. All their crosses come from deep positions.
4. They play very, very deep. Should be easy to exploit the space.
ajsccfc
Well-Known Member
There were people concerned about this at the time, understandably. We've had fitness coaches in charge before and here was a chief scout being given the reins. I'd be surprised if anyone wasn't sceptical.
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
You didn't really answer any of my questions. If he was the right man then, he's the right man now.
Would someone like to list all of the blatant mistakes he's made this season? Most have been subbing the wrong players (who turned out to be injured, actually..) or not bringing on the right players (who turned out to be not really fitr for the bench). Then there's the formation..who are our myriad of pacy wingers again? I keep forgetting their names...
Would someone like to list all of the blatant mistakes he's made this season? Most have been subbing the wrong players (who turned out to be injured, actually..) or not bringing on the right players (who turned out to be not really fitr for the bench). Then there's the formation..who are our myriad of pacy wingers again? I keep forgetting their names...
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
But surely they would have judged him on what he produced on the pitch, and be pleasantly surprised? I thought he was the cheap option. Then I heard him speak and saw his team play. I've only disagreed with him on a few things, and he's generally proven me wrong on those.
Otis
Well-Known Member
What bizarre logic is that? Wasn't Dowie the right man for us when we got him? Wasn't Coleman? They must be the right men now too. :facepalm:
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
How long did they have in the job? Thorn's had a few months. He also has an almost impossible job to do. They were also allowed resources to bring in players. AT has had sod all and had the team massively weakened. And round and round we go...
I give up Otis. We will never see eye to eye. I'm off to do something more constructive and less pointless until I'm at work and have a few hours to kill
Otis
Well-Known Member
Blatant mistakes.
1. Not getting the front two to play closer together.
2. Not getting the midfield to push up and support the attack.
3. Not leave a massive gap between the front two and the midfield. There's about 20 yards at the moment.
4. Then there is the subs. Against Burnley he failed to make subs when it was obvious Burnley were on top and were the only team who were going to score.
5. The Blackpool match when he actually said on the radio that Blackpool changed a few things that he wasn't expecting, including the long diagonal ball over the top of the fullbacks which caught us out about 6 times. The Blackpool radio commentator quite clearly said before the game that Blackpool use this same tactic every single game and have done for some time. Why on earth didn't Thorn know this? Someone didn't check out the opposition. Now could have been Harrison I suppose, but Thorn is the manager.
And that's just off the top of my head.
Johnnythespider
Well-Known Member
Andy Thorn, can't say the right thing, can't do the right thing. Damned if he does, Damned if he don't, such is the life of anyone who dares to take on the poison chalice as sky blues manager. Do i feel sorry for him, no, do i respect him for it, yes. Who on here said he should'nt be given the job when he was filling in as caretaker, not many i'll wager. So what's changed since then, he has'nt been given the budget we were led to believe he would get and a full team of 11 players are not employed by the club anymore, hence the diamond formation we all raved about at the end of last season now lacks any thrust and potency up at the sharp end. so will it be AT who is responsible if we go down, not in my book, however i can understand peoples desperation for change, as many see this as the only chance to cling on to championship status, but for me all this clinging on is a backwards step. If we are to have new owners next season i would much rather see us buy a squad capable of taking league one by storm and then hit the championship with all that impetus behind us. In the style of Norwich or as looks likely Southampton.
ajsccfc
Well-Known Member
Definitely, but the concerns about inexperience can't really go away that quickly, and in the face of a slump it's natural they'd come to the fore.
Of course, there isn't a manager alive who hasn't been new at some point, but any doubt at the moment is justifiable, even if time will prove it wrong.
davebart
Active Member
AT has the job because SISU were not prepared to pay for anyone else. It cost them nothing to make him manager.
Meanwhile they have sold a number of higher earning players, who by definition, were the better players. I do not see how this season's team can be considered as good as last season's team - that just defies logic. They were crap last season - lost the only decent players they had - and are now good??????
Boothroyd - an experienced manager - couldn't get anything out of last years team. Coleman - an experienced manager - couldn't get anything out of his team. I could go on. Who is this miracle worker that is going to come in and make a chamionship team out of a div 1 squad?
And who is going to pay for him?
Meanwhile they have sold a number of higher earning players, who by definition, were the better players. I do not see how this season's team can be considered as good as last season's team - that just defies logic. They were crap last season - lost the only decent players they had - and are now good??????
Boothroyd - an experienced manager - couldn't get anything out of last years team. Coleman - an experienced manager - couldn't get anything out of his team. I could go on. Who is this miracle worker that is going to come in and make a chamionship team out of a div 1 squad?
And who is going to pay for him?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
You make one big assumption - that I thought the appointment was good at the time. It wasn't it was as stupid then as it is damaging now - history will show the club will be entering it' lowest ebb in 60 years at the end of this season. Thorn will be manager so he is culpable.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Don't know but Thorn isn't even a non-league manager. He is not a manager. According to your logic managers make no difference so let's not have one at all. Have a number in the programme and if the number comes up you can be manager next home game. Why not with this team makes no difference apparantly. You never know it may work we may even win a game, it would make a change.
this is my point. One of the biggest reasons for my dislike of SISU is that we are all so defeatist now. The players aren't to blame, the manager isn't to blame, we're going down, we accept every defeat because of lack of investment. No this team aren't play off material, they aren't even mid table material but I strongly believe that they aren't relegation fodder either. There is massive under achievement every week and in football and in that situation the manager must take some of the blame. I feel sorry for the guy but he took the job on. If he can't have any effect on what happens why have the position at the club at all
