Mean while back in court (5 Viewers)

[chiefdave]

Why do people always bring up match day costs you pay them whether you own lease or rent a stadium so they are irrelevant

Matchday costs is a bit of a misleading term I guess. Point I was making is there's things that were included when we paid £1.2m that have now moved to matchday costs and are paid on top of the rent.

 

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[Grendel]

West Ham will be paying
2m to £2.5m rent annually as part of a 99-year lease.

West ham effectively get it for free and the local community are seriously pissed off.

 

[dongonzalos]

The West Ham deal isn't particularly straightforward as they pay out but then get things you would normally expect them to be paying for like stewards, ticketing, undersoil heating and all sorts of random things.

The crucial thing for them will be to avoid relegation. If they go down they may well end up in a mess.

I completely agree.

However it's stil the rent they have agreed to Pay in the prem.
If they go down and don't come back up before the parachute payments end. They will be in the poo. Not just over the rent though. That will be unaffordable as well.

 

[Rodders1]

It would all be over a damn sight quicker if it was. I can just imagine it........,,,,

You bought the club including a contract to pay £1.3 million rent a year?

Yes.

Your plan was quick promotion, sell for a profit short term, so the rent cost wasn't important to you?

Yes

You badly invested the money and ran the club poorly, Plan A didn't work and in fact you got relegated?

Yes

The rent then become a big issue you were renting a premiership standard stadium whilst in the third division?

Yes

You stopped paying the rent and turned down a few offers around the 200-400k mark. Then broke the contract by moving to Northampton

Yes

We're you doing all this hoping the business running the stadium would go under or you devalue it so you get it a lot cheaper?

Well it's more complicated than that

Let me me rephrase the question did a high court judge rule that that is what you did

Yes

You succeeded in lowering the value but then the charity and council sold the business to someone else

Yes

Now you are saying that they can't do that and you want to claim compensation for all this

Yes

.......................

Haha - sums it up very well I think!

 

[dongonzalos]

West ham effectively get it for free and the local community are seriously pissed off.

They will still have to pay £2-2.5 million for it, but they are getting an amazing facility and lots thrown in.
The tax payer is pissed off.

 

[Brylowes]

Reference your first point.....
I think the Judges read it over their prawn sandwiches and glass of Red.

What,is it being held at Old Trafford

 

[Brylowes]

But think of what we are actually getting. For a start its £200K plus matchday costs which equates to around £450K. The details of F&B haven't been released. Is it a % of revenue or profit? Is it a % of everything or a % of what ACL recieves from IEC?

All we get is the ground for a few hours on matchday. We're even paying for things like parking spaces for the media! We no longer have our offices or club shop there so they are additional costs to add on to the rent when comparing.

It could be a good deal, irrespective of how it compares to others, it could be a bad deal. We won't know that until we see credible business plans worked up for various scenarios.

About those plans,someone better wake Tim from his slumber.
Also: if you don't own something,but you want to use it,then you have to rent it.
If we pay someone £200.000 rent why would they then pay match day costs for us

 

[chiefdave]

If we pay someone £200.000 rent why would they then pay match day costs for us

Think you're missing my point. What I'm saying is you can't simply say the rent has gone from £1.2m to £200K as you're not comparing like with like. What we got for £1.2m is nothing like what we are getting for £200K so its not a case of simply saying the rent has been reduced.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Think you're missing my point. What I'm saying is you can't simply say the rent has gone from £1.2m to £200K as you're not comparing like with like. What we got for £1.2m is nothing like what we are getting for £200K so its not a case of simply saying the rent has been reduced.

I hope you're not saying we were better off paying 1.2 million

 

[Captain Dart]

Reference your first point.....
I think the Judges read it over their prawn sandwiches and glass of Red.

They seem to be alcohol tolerant then, capable of correcting the a (possibly ahem) drunk QC.

Sisu legal team says the club was relegated from the Premier League in 2002. The judges clarify it was actually 2001.

We were paying £1.2m for which we got use of the ground on matchdays, offices and the club shop & ticket office. We recieved no revenues generated by our being at the ground or any benefit from any other events held there.

Yes it was an utterly crap deal, no one can deny it.

 

[Grendel]

They will still have to pay £2-2.5 million for it, but they are getting an amazing facility and lots thrown in.
The tax payer is pissed off.

So they are not paying it at all - but let's try and create an illusion it is a bad deal

 

[Brylowes]

So they are not paying it at all - but let's try and create an illusion it is a bad deal

Eh?

 

[M&B Stand]

Yes it was an utterly crap deal, no one can deny it.

this

 

[jas365]

So is anyone winning at HT, or did it turn out to be a boring goalless first half?

 

[Calista]

Yes it was an utterly crap deal, no one can deny it.

… and the crap deal was a natural consequence of the Council and the Higgs having to sustain a load of debt to keep the stadium project afloat. The way for CCFC to get out of paying so much rent and to get us back some control over the Ricoh was to cough up the (again inevitably high) formula price to buy back the Higgs share. This was all known to SISU when they took over the club, and I assumed they’d budgeted to get the half share on the agreed terms. But (to my dismay) Ranson put it on the back burner and we never took that step. Later SISU got into deeper and deeper shit, and tried to knock down the rent and the purchase price. But unfortunately they approached it in a way that totally alienated the Local Authority and the Charity, thus sealing our fate.

Happy to be corrected if I’ve got the history wrong, it’s all such a depressing blur.

 

[oldskyblue58]

SISU QC making a few points about the ACL financials . I assume he is referring to the business plans at the time of the loan January 2013. Saying turnover was suffering and savings could not be made. So no commentary but what was in the ACL accounts that resulted from what was going on. CCFC ceased paying rent April 2012 and left the arena July 2013

Year end 31/05

Turnover
2012 7.78m
2013 14.49m
2014 12.12m

Wages
2012 1.43m
2013 0.96m ( Budget said £1m per the QC)
2014 0.70m ( Budget said £880k per the QC)

Gross profit
2012 7.34m
2013 11.24m
2014 8.56m

Admin expenses
2012 5.26m
2013 10.19m
2014 8.31m

Interest payable
2012 0.995m
2013 0.817m
2014 0.708m


Net Profit
2012 1.086m
2013 0.775m (budget 362k )
2014 (0.392m) (budget 868k)

make your own minds up if turnover could increase without CCFC and whether ACL could make cost savings.

I think however by 2014 the burden of the dispute was putting a lot of strain on the ACL cash flow ......

 

[stupot07]

I have bigged up anything, the club were offered a sliding scale rent and rejected it as they believed they were coming straight back up. So why sign to something that will cost more.
SISU should have renegotiated the rent when they bought the club as a fail safe in case their plan A failed and they didn't.
You would have to assume the rent if promotrd was more than 1.3 as that's the point of a sliding scale.

I suppose my point is, you're quoting the sliding scale rent offer as something that would have solved all of our problems. It wouldn't have because £1.3m was far too high in the championship and we don't know how much it would have been in league one and two. For all we know it could have still been unaffordable.


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[gally9]

Ive read all the telegraph has to say on it.. i cant understand a bloody thing thats going on.. got to be honest!

 

[stupot07]

Yes it was an utterly crap deal, no one can deny it.

Unfortunately some on here do deny it.


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[skybluetony176]

Ive read all the telegraph has to say on it.. i cant understand a bloody thing thats going on.. got to be honest!

Sounds like a load of he said she said to me. Sounds more like they need a strict headmaster than judges.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

OSB could you tell me why the admin charges in 2013 were twice 2012?

 

[dadgad]

Perfect summing up. Can we get back to football, thanks.

It would all be over a damn sight quicker if it was. I can just imagine it........,,,,

You bought the club including a contract to pay £1.3 million rent a year?

Yes.

Your plan was quick promotion, sell for a profit short term, so the rent cost wasn't important to you?

Yes

You badly invested the money and ran the club poorly, Plan A didn't work and in fact you got relegated?

Yes

The rent then become a big issue you were renting a premiership standard stadium whilst in the third division?

Yes

You stopped paying the rent and turned down a few offers around the 200-400k mark. Then broke the contract by moving to Northampton

Yes

We're you doing all this hoping the business running the stadium would go under or you devalue it so you get it a lot cheaper?

Well it's more complicated than that

Let me me rephrase the question did a high court judge rule that that is what you did

Yes

You succeeded in lowering the value but then the charity and council sold the business to someone else

Yes

Now you are saying that they can't do that and you want to claim compensation for all this

Yes

.......................

 

[Grendel]

Perfect summing up. Can we get back to football, thanks.

The perfect summing up I agree - from a council whore who has zero interest in the football club.

We have to see that other parasite GPE soon.

 

[Nick]

Acl encouraged the rent strike?

 

[chiefdave]

Acl encouraged the rent strike?

Seems what SISU are claiming is that it was a rent holiday that ACL were happy with as it would drive down the value which they wanted to do in order to get the loan off Yorkshire Bank cheap.

There was a few points today where the SISU chap was talking about how the language from the council suddenly changed, this was one of his example. According to him it was a sudden switch from rent holiday to rent strike. Think that's something they need to get to the bottom of as they are two very different things.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Think you're missing my point. What I'm saying is you can't simply say the rent has gone from £1.2m to £200K as you're not comparing like with like. What we got for £1.2m is nothing like what we are getting for £200K so its not a case of simply saying the rent has been reduced.

The perfect summing up I agree - from a council whore who has zero interest in the football club.

We have to see that other parasite GPE soon.

You hate the place so surely you're pleased that it was sold to someone else. Or was the stuff you were saying about it all lies to devalue it? Yes that's probably it after all you and our owners are cut from the same cloth.

 

[Nick]

Seems what SISU are claiming is that it was a rent holiday that ACL were happy with as it would drive down the value which they wanted to do in order to get the loan off Yorkshire Bank cheap.

There was a few points today where the SISU chap was talking about how the language from the council suddenly changed, this was one of his example. According to him it was a sudden switch from rent holiday to rent strike. Think that's something they need to get to the bottom of as they are two very different things.

From the bit I just saw, the council lawyer replied the reason isn't relevant rather than calling bullshit?

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

sorry Dave don't know how your post was included

 

[chiefdave]

From the bit I just saw, the council lawyer replied the reason isn't relevant rather than calling bullshit?

Think its a fairly key point. A rent holiday would be agreed by both sides. Puts the clubs action in a very different light.

It also ties in to the loan. CCC can't claim they had to bail ACL out to protect their investment as SISU were refusing to pay rent if it was an agreed course of action.

And of course it would put some doubt on the claim CCC had to sell to Wasps at a low price as SISU had forced the price down.

Be interesting to see if the judge pushes CCC for their view on this. Would be very interested to know what actually happened there.

 

[dongonzalos]

So they are not paying it at all - but let's try and create an illusion it is a bad deal

No magic tricks they will hand over between 2 - 2.5 million in rent.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Seems what SISU are claiming is that it was a rent holiday that ACL were happy with as it would drive down the value which they wanted to do in order to get the loan off Yorkshire Bank cheap.

There was a few points today where the SISU chap was talking about how the language from the council suddenly changed, this was one of his example. According to him it was a sudden switch from rent holiday to rent strike. Think that's something they need to get to the bottom of as they are two very different things.

Are they admitting to a criminal conspiracy and trying to blame another party for it? Highly ethical that!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Are they admitting to a criminal conspiracy and trying to blame another party for it? Highly ethical that!

tbf, I think when it comes to ethics and morals, no matter what the result of this, neither side is going to be going for a Daz doorstep challenge.

 

[stupot07]

Are they admitting to a criminal conspiracy and trying to blame another party for it? Highly ethical that!

It's the same argument they used last time.


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[Jack Griffin]

tbf, I think when it comes to ethics and morals, no matter what the result of this, neither side is going to be going for a Daz doorstep challenge.

Do you mean "that won't wash" LOL

 

[Skybluesince82]

I love how they use a rugby picture of the Ricoh in the day's summing up by Gilbert.
I'm certainly not a conspiracy theorist or anything like that, but to me that is either very lazy on behalf of the telegraph or deliberately inflammatory. Would it really have taken that much to put a football photo in there?

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/ricoh-arena-appeal-sisu-encouraged-10833623