Brussels (3 Viewers)

[Grendel]

Multiculturalism is a dream, a noble dream but a dream nonetheless. One culture will always crave power over the others. It is usually the most unyielding and agressive one. For years it has been "western" culture and now the tide is turning. No amount of pavement chalking and human chains will change that no matter how well intended.

There needs to be a huge shift in thinking in this country if our values are not to be usurped. We are inviting ourselves to be an Islamic State - or so called Islamic State as the politically correct BBC say in their broadcasts.

 

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[Macca]

There needs to be a huge shift in thinking in this country if our values are not to be usurped. We are inviting ourselves to be an Islamic State - or so called Islamic State as the politically correct BBC say in their broadcasts.

I do actually feel that is the ultimate conclusion for a number of European countries, not in my lifetime but eventually.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I really don't think that's the case Macca or Grendel

I do think we need to define what sort of society we want though

 

[Macca]

I really don't think that's the case Macca or Grendel

I do think we need to define what sort of society we want though

I admire your opinions and thoughts SBT. I do just think that history shows to quote Osama that the strong horse wins

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Was it Churchill said about Democracy being the worst form of government apart from all the other forms.

Looking at the world there is no successful Islamic government that doesn't depend on vicious forms of over the top infringements on human rights.

I just don't see how this can happen even with the slovenly apathetic attitudes of most of our countrymen

Look at the outcry at the attacks in Paris / Brussels etc and look at the humanity that is poured out in reaction to it. There is a nobility in our culture that comes from a deep understanding of the value of human life (I think).

I'd like to claim Christian heritage but this is such a mixed bag of good and bad it seems churlish to dare

Grendel - What did you mean about Russia? Do you think terrorists avoid them for a particular reason?

 

[Grendel]

Was it Churchill said about Democracy being the worst form of government apart from all the other forms.

Looking at the world there is no successful Islamic government that doesn't depend on vicious forms of over the top infringements on human rights.

I just don't see how this can happen even with the slovenly apathetic attitudes of most of our countrymen

Look at the outcry at the attacks in Paris / Brussels etc and look at the humanity that is poured out in reaction to it. There is a nobility in our culture that comes from a deep understanding of the value of human life (I think).

I'd like to claim Christian heritage but this is such a mixed bag of good and bad it seems churlish to dare

Grendel - What did you mean about Russia? Do you think terrorists avoid them for a particular reason?

They avoid them as they fear a backlash that will destroy them.

That is why the IRA analogy applies. Even if that happened now the likes of Adams and Mcguiness, brutal murderers of innocent women and children, would be rounded up and shot.

We believe negotiation is the way forward. Negotiation means a succession of your beliefs and rights.

These people want us dead. They will always want us dead unless we succumb as we did to the Ira so take your choice.

It's a threat but still a marginalised threat that can be eliminated by dominance and brutality.

We haven't got the stomach for that. They have and always will. Western culture they hate and always have and always will.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Sorry mate cause you seem to have a big brain - when you say always what do you mean?

How old would you say 'Western culture' is? 1960's onwards? So this hatred is how old? I understand the crusades argument but I don't think that's what they dislike is it?

I firmly believe that no threat can ever be eliminated by dominance and brutality - maybe for a generation but not for ever it just comes back time and again - look at Rwanda's history over the last 50 years???

 

[Jack Griffin]

There needs to be a huge shift in thinking in this country if our values are not to be usurped. We are inviting ourselves to be an Islamic State - or so called Islamic State as the politically correct BBC say in their broadcasts.

For once I agree with you.

 

[Samo]

A silly point? Why? Are you saying there is no society you'd intervene in at all? So brutality and mass murder is fine so long as it's not on your doorstep? So when Poland went in 1939 you'd have shrugged your shoulders? As long as death camps weren't on our doorstep no problem?

I'm disappointed.

Grendel, you are not the only one who is disappointed. I thought you were smarter than this. Are you seriously telling me you think we intervened in Iraq for humanitarian reasons? Straight answer please, are you?

 

[Samo]

There needs to be a huge shift in thinking in this country if our values are not to be usurped. We are inviting ourselves to be an Islamic State - or so called Islamic State as the politically correct BBC say in their broadcasts.

You sound like Trump you fool.

 

[Grendel]

Sorry mate cause you seem to have a big brain - when you say always what do you mean?

How old would you say 'Western culture' is? 1960's onwards? So this hatred is how old? I understand the crusades argument but I don't think that's what they dislike is it?

I firmly believe that no threat can ever be eliminated by dominance and brutality - maybe for a generation but not for ever it just comes back time and again - look at Rwanda's history over the last 50 years???

The Roman Empire seemed pretty good at it. Mugawbwe seems to be coping as well.

 

[Grendel]

You sound like Trump you fool.

You sound like Neville Chamberlain

 

[Samo]

You sound like Neville Chamberlain

You going to answer my question or pull your usual bullshit?

 

[Grendel]

You going to answer my question or pull your usual bullshit?

We didn't remove Saddam Hussain for humanitarian reasons no. Though I do find a stance against his removal odd unless you wanted Kurds to be mustard gassed. Perhaps you do or perhaps your moral high horse means you don't care. Try telling that to those who are now alive who wouldn't be if we hadn't killed him.

If we'd dragged Adams and Mcguinness through the streets of Birmingham and shot them on the head in the 70's I'm sure there'd be morale outrage from you. I'm also sure that the children tucking into a McDonald's meal 20 years later would now be adults.

Life is about choices. Choices are sometimes unpleasant.

 

[Samo]

We didn't remove Saddam Hussain for humanitarian reasons no. Though I do find a stance against his removal odd unless you wanted Kurds to be mustard gassed. Perhaps you do or perhaps your moral high horse means you don't care. Try telling that to those who are now alive who wouldn't be if we hadn't killed him.

If we'd dragged Adams and Mcguinness through the streets of Birmingham and shot them on the head in the 70's I'm sure there'd be morale outrage from you. I'm also sure that the children tucking into a McDonald's meal 20 years later would now be adults.

Life is about choices. Choices are sometimes unpleasant.

So why try to use some bullshit argument that we were rescuing the downtrodden Iraqi people? Still, if it suits your agenda...
And yes I would have been outraged, or do you condone public execution? Perhaps you are more like the IS thugs than you'd care to admit?

 

[Macca]

Lets try and keep it civil, its a topic worthy of rational discussion.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Stop going off track. Would you want to be a part of the Roman Empire of Mugabe's Zimbabwe Grendel?

 

[Grendel]

Stop going off track. Would you want to be a part of the Roman Empire of Mugabe's Zimbabwe Grendel?

No but also I wouldn't want to defend anarchic institutions that espouse oppression either.

 

[Grendel]

So why try to use some bullshit argument that we were rescuing the downtrodden Iraqi people? Still, if it suits your agenda...
And yes I would have been outraged, or do you condone public execution? Perhaps you are more like the IS thugs than you'd care to admit?

You miss he point. The point is that sometimes good comes from bad.

The "so called" Islamic state would have no problem slaughtering your children and force you to watch the slaughter.

You may still argue for their human rights.

I wouldn't.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

How do you know whose rights you are protecting Grendel? Can we trust those in power to tell us who they are?

You are challenging some deeply held beliefs of mine it's enjoyable debate

 

[Samo]

You miss he point. The point is that sometimes good comes from bad.

The "so called" Islamic state would have no problem slaughtering your children and force you to watch the slaughter.

You may still argue for their human rights.

I wouldn't.

Oh dear. Truth is Grendel, you can be very impressive on the front foot (full bullying mode) but not so impressive on the ropes.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Samo what do you reckon?

No hope really??

 

[Samo]

Samo what do you reckon?

No hope really??

For Grendel or in general? I general, always Pete, always.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

In general samo?

We maintain life means something and protect it?

 

[Liquid Gold]

Saying we should have dealt with the Northern Ireland more aggressively like the Russians is an odd analogy to make. Northern Ireland is now a peaceful country after sitting down with the protagonists and forcing them to humanise each other. Russia is still dealing with an armed insurgency in the caucuses because they're constantly creating new radical terrorists with their brutal tactics.

 

[Samo]

In general samo?

We maintain life means something and protect it?

Yeah of course, we nurture, hope and protect. ''an eye for an eye blinds the whole world''

 

[Macca]

Gentleman thank you for an interesting discussion. All opinions respected by me, agreed or not. Lets hope for a brighter, safer future for future generations.

 

[martcov]

What I don't like is that Bush claimed to have spoken with God, Blair has admitted he was a closet Catholic when he agreed to go in, Cameron is talking now about protecting Christian values. We can hardly criticise them for portraying us as crusaders. Our
politicians should drop all religious talk. Not out of deference to Muslims, but to show that our society is acting as it is for universally just reasons and not to protect or further any religion. Our society is stronger and more just than any in Arabia and more so than Russia. Russia is ruled by a cleptocracy and has to continue with regional wars to distract the population from the government's continued economic failings.

I would hardly hold the Russian form of government as a positive alternative to our 'soft' western ways. Rather do a deal with the IRA who have some moral justification- for the struggle, not the senseless murders, than send the army on a 'holiday' into someone else's country.

We are taking out the leadership of ISIS slowly but surely and we are pulling terrorists in Europe. We haven't lost the war against radical Islam yet and I am not scared of the relatively few Muslim terrorists. What is important, is that we don't alienate the decent Muslims such as by throwing human rights out of the window for Muslims. Take them out in active situations by all means - that saves lives, but be seen to be acting within the law when they are prisoners.

 

[Sick Boy]

Saying we should have dealt with the Northern Ireland more aggressively like the Russians is an odd analogy to make. Northern Ireland is now a peaceful country after sitting down with the protagonists and forcing them to humanise each other. Russia is still dealing with an armed insurgency in the caucuses because they're constantly creating new radical terrorists with their brutal tactics.

Exactly; it is absurd and would only have led to more Irish and Anglo-Irish being radicalised.

British hypocrisy really is on massive display on this thread. Many seem to forget that Britain is by far one of the world's most aggressive countries in history.

 

[covcity4life]

its crazy how brainwashed some people can be. and i aint just on about IS!!!

 

[Macca]

Exactly; it is absurd and would only have led to more Irish and Anglo-Irish being radicalised.

British hypocrisy really is on massive display on this thread. Many seem to forget that Britain is by far one of the world's most aggressive countries in history.

Despite your anti British stance you must see some merit to the place?

 

[Grendel]

Exactly; it is absurd and would only have led to more Irish and Anglo-Irish being radicalised.

British hypocrisy really is on massive display on this thread. Many seem to forget that Britain is by far one of the world's most aggressive countries in history.

There are always going to be radicals, extremists and terrorists. Appeasing and offering olive branches is one way to a solution but given the extreme dogma of the Islamic State I would suggest total surrender only will appease them. The Irish example is relevant as it's the only one we have. Allowing murderers and bombers to roam free is too high a price to pay. It would happen again in this instance.

Of course Britain was the most aggressive country many years ago as it was the true super power. That's what super powers do - rule and conquer. It's not relevant now though.

The Roman Empire was one of the most bloody and ruthless super powers in history but it's not relevant any more.

It's what though the Middle East needs to be controlled. Having any kind of power and influence given their tyranny must be prevented.

 

[Sick Boy]

Despite your anti British stance you must see some merit to the place?

Why's it anti-British to acknowledge the country's past and try to learn from it? Funnily enough, people who feel oppressed are going to fight back; the same as those whose family have been killed by bombs are going to be pissed off. It is not as though groups of people suddenly wake up and decide to irrationally hate another group of people.

I don't mind Britain myself but suffered a fair amount of bigotry and racism growing up, I can vividly remember my mum being spat at when I was child as well.

Again, this is similar to the fact that young Muslims find it difficult to identify as British compared to their parents, for example. I will acknowledge that this is common in western Europe and is something that needs to be addressed urgently.

 

[Sick Boy]

There are always going to be radicals, extremists and terrorists. Appeasing and offering olive branches is one way to a solution but given the extreme dogma of the Islamic State I would suggest total surrender only will appease them. The Irish example is relevant as it's the only one we have. Allowing murderers and bombers to roam free is too high a price to pay. It would happen again in this instance.

Of course Britain was the most aggressive country many years ago as it was the true super power. That's what super powers do - rule and conquer. It's not relevant now though.

The Roman Empire was one of the most bloody and ruthless super powers in history but it's not relevant any more.

It's what though the Middle East needs to be controlled. Having any kind of power and influence given their tyranny must be prevented.

Don't you think that some in the middle East still regard the likes of the USA and the UK as tyrants?

 

[Macca]

Why's it anti-British to acknowledge the country's past and try to learn from it? Funnily enough, people who feel oppressed are going to fight back; the same as those whose family have been killed by bombs are going to be pissed off. It is not as though groups of people suddenly wake up and decide to irrationally hate another group of people.

I don't mind Britain myself but suffered a fair amount of bigotry and racism growing up, I can vividly remember my mum being spat at when I was child as well.

Again, this is similar to the fact that young Muslims find it difficult to identify as British compared to their parents, for example. I will acknowledge that this is common in western Europe and is something that needs to be addressed urgently.

I'm sorry you experienced this behaviour. Even in a country that I am proud to belong to and feel stacks up pretty well there are morons.

I think what I am saying is that there are plenty of factors other than our foreign policy at play. Thousands if not millions of people long to come here. That must be something to be proud of