Mean while back in court (19 Viewers)

[martcov]

Amusingly, I remember many people on here (who've actually posted on this thread) saying don't sell to SISU as they will just borrow against it, they can't be trusted, yet cheer on the Wasps franchise, who within months borrowed against the stadium.

And yes, I'm talking about fools like you. CCC should have sold to CCFC owners whoever they were and put in provision that the stadium could not be sold, borrowed against, etc.

As I've said many times before SISU have screwed us up for a decade or two, CCC have screwed us for generations.

We will never recover. The "could not take the chance" line is pathetic.

Joy wanted unencumbered freehold and Mutton agreed with you that there should be a provision that the stadium could not be sold. Joy said if she didn't get what she wanted she would tie CCC up in litigation. Joy has done what she said she would and you and Mutton have been ignored.

 

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[Otis]

Amusingly, I remember many people on here (who've actually posted on this thread) saying don't sell to SISU as they will just borrow against it, they can't be trusted, yet cheer on the Wasps franchise, who within months borrowed against the stadium.

And yes, I'm talking about fools like you. CCC should have sold to CCFC owners whoever they were and put in provision that the stadium could not be sold, borrowed against, etc.

As I've said many times before SISU have screwed us up for a decade or two, CCC have screwed us for generations.

We will never recover. The "could not take the chance" line is pathetic.

Well yeah. I didn't want the council to sell to Sisu, but always said if they did so they could have put caveats in place to protect the stadium for the people of Coventry for the future so Sisu wouldn't just do us over.

The same thing should have happened when we sold to Wasps.

Totally get the council's distrust of Sisu. I think after what had been going on it was only right and proper to not trust them or want to deal with them, but in life you have to deal with people you feel are a little unsavoury and I'm sure the council's lawyers could have drawn something up that would have allowed the sale of the stadium, but protected the city's and people of Coventry's interest.

 

[dongonzalos]

Well don't sell the stadium until SISU had fucked off then. At the time they were telling us thatbrhe stadium ans acl were in fine shape.

The stadium was built for Coventry City. We paid more in rent in ten years than Wasps paid.

And i want the best for ccfc, not wasps, acl or the local authority like you and others seem to want. If that makes me a fool then I'm a fool.

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Coventry City moved to Northampton whilst building a new stadium.
How long do you propose the council waited with an empty stadium until SISU left?

Three Judges agreed with the first Judge, who said SISU were devaluing ACL in order to buy it cheaply.
He also said the original plan suggested by SISU would not have worked as the bank would not have accepted it and ACL would have gone bust. (SISU get it for next to nothing)

ACL half owned by Charity and CCC.
Charging too high rent for third division football.
SISU stop paying rent.
ACL start to head towards going under
Rent negotiations happen and ACL is losing value at the same time.
Rent negotiations and a plan to buy half of ACL happen. As these negotiations are going in the value of ACL is always falling.
Plan to buy half of ACL involves discharging the loan.
The judges state this would not have worked as bank would not have gone for it and ACL would have been bust.
(Charity and CCC get jack for it)
SISU agree rent deal shake on it then change their mind. Meaning negotiations will go on longer and in the meantime the value of ACL keeps falling and it's moving towards going bust.
Council approach bank themselves and give them an offer they can deal with.
CCFC move out and decide to build a new stadium. (Claiming betrayal over moving away from the deal the Judges say would have led to ACL going bust)

Council and charity left with ACL and empty stadium. Eventually without someone in the stadium the business would again go bust.

Lots of different rent offers banded about for CCFC to return. Non taken up.

Final warning given by council leader that if by January nothing has happened CCC will move on as they have to.

CCFC not making any progress in new stadium, so maybe they were waiting for ACL to go bust again?

ACL sold to Wasps
Higgs charity get 2.7 million
Council get 2.7 million
14 million loan taken in by Wasps.

SISU confirm they would never had done the deal Wasps did.

I appreciate there is suggestions of media wars, collusion with CET. Bad blood ect ect.

However whikst there is bad blood, conflict negotiations can't happen. Whilst negotiations can't happen the value of ACL falls as it moves towards going bust.
If negotiations never happened and nobody else came in for ACL and we sat at Northamptin for 5/6years. Who was most likely to gain from that situation.
I appreciate you attended Northampton so for you that scenario might not be as big a deal as it is for many others.
For many of us that meant not been able to watch our football team for 5-6 years whilst seeing no progress on a new stadium.

It's shit it was sold to Wasps but unless your judgement is completely clouded by the fact that CCFC and us fans get shafted. It's completely obvious why the council did it.
As councillors if they didn't they would be negligent to their duties IMO.
As a Cov City fan it is crap.

 

[italiahorse]

Amusingly, I remember many people on here (who've actually posted on this thread) saying don't sell to SISU as they will just borrow against it, they can't be trusted, yet cheer on the Wasps franchise, who within months borrowed against the stadium.

And yes, I'm talking about fools like you. CCC should have sold to CCFC owners whoever they were and put in provision that the stadium could not be sold, borrowed against, etc.

As I've said many times before SISU have screwed us up for a decade or two, CCC have screwed us for generations.

We will never recover. The "could not take the chance" line is pathetic.

They are not the same people though. They are individuals opinions.
Certainly not me talking about borrowing against the stadium.

If you are talking about fools it's people like you that actually trust SISU because they are the owners of CCFC.
It's people like you that dwell on the past rather than dare push SISU for a plan for the future.
It's people like you that I suspect want SISU to keep taking legal action in the vain hope that they will be given the stadium in the end.
It's people like you who can't see that SISU were doing it for themselves and not for the good of CCFC.

Move on, it's boring

 

[italiahorse]

Coventry City moved to Northampton whilst building a new stadium.
How long do you propose the council waited with an empty stadium until SISU left?

Three Judges agreed with the first Judge, who said SISU were devaluing ACL in order to buy it cheaply.
He also said the original plan suggested by SISU would not have worked as the bank would not have accepted it and ACL would have gone bust. (SISU get it for next to nothing)

ACL half owned by Charity and CCC.
Charging too high rent for third division football.
SISU stop paying rent.
ACL start to head towards going under
Rent negotiations happen and ACL is losing value at the same time.
Rent negotiations and a plan to buy half of ACL happen. As these negotiations are going in the value of ACL is always falling.
Plan to buy half of ACL involves discharging the loan.
The judges state this would not have worked as bank would not have gone for it and ACL would have been bust.
(Charity and CCC get jack for it)
SISU agree rent deal shake on it then change their mind. Meaning negotiations will go on longer and in the meantime the value of ACL keeps falling and it's moving towards going bust.
Council approach bank themselves and give them an offer they can deal with.
CCFC move out and decide to build a new stadium. (Claiming betrayal over moving away from the deal the Judges say would have led to ACL going bust)

Council and charity left with ACL and empty stadium. Eventually without someone in the stadium the business would again go bust.

Lots of different rent offers banded about for CCFC to return. Non taken up.

Final warning given by council leader that if by January nothing has happened CCC will move on as they have to.

CCFC not making any progress in new stadium, so maybe they were waiting for ACL to go bust again?

ACL sold to Wasps
Higgs charity get 2.7 million
Council get 2.7 million
14 million loan taken in by Wasps.

SISU confirm they would never had done the deal Wasps did.

I appreciate there is suggestions of media wars, collusion with CET. Bad blood ect ect.

However whikst there is bad blood, conflict negotiations can't happen. Whilst negotiations can't happen the value of ACL falls as it moves towards going bust.
If negotiations never happened and nobody else came in for ACL and we sat at Northamptin for 5/6years. Who was most likely to gain from that situation.
I appreciate you attended Northampton so for you that scenario might not be as big a deal as it is for many others.
For many of us that meant not been able to watch our football team for 5-6 years whilst seeing no progress on a new stadium.

It's shit it was sold to Wasps but unless your judgement is completely clouded by the fact that CCFC and us fans get shafted. It's completely obvious why the council did it.
As councillors if they didn't they would be negligent to their duties IMO.
As a Cov City fan it is crap.

Absolutely spot on.
Just wish some would understand this.

 

[stupot07]

Hell will freeze over....

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[Otis]

Hell will freeze over....

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Before you go and watch Wasps?

 

[shy_tall_knight]

I do know former CCFC ST holders who have abondoned the club for WASPS, some went to Dublin to watch them play Leinster in autumn because in their words will be waiting a long time for Cov to play a European fixture.

I know a lot of rugby players, who would watch CCFC occassionaly (a couple of times a year), rarely would watch Cov Rugby. Since WASPS moved in watched them a lot last year less so this year, but they will never go to CCFC now, if they want to meet up it will be around a WASPS game. They are not WASPS fans they are rugby fans and I do believe there is a distinct difference. Their main team they want to win is there country and I think a lot of paying rugby fans would but sucess for england / scotland ahead of club sucess. Football is the complete opposite to that.

I got slaughtered on here previously for saying this but I work with a lot of Saints fans and they have yet to convince that their pssion for their club is anywhere close to an average football fan, their family links to the club aren't there, and contaversially I believe a lot are there as they believe it is a middle class thing to do rather than watch football with all those ruffians in the stands. If Northampton got to the PL and became higher profile and would expect a significant drift to football.

 

[Nick]

I do know former CCFC ST holders who have abondoned the club for WASPS, some went to Dublin to watch them play Leinster in autumn because in their words will be waiting a long time for Cov to play a European fixture.

I know a lot of rugby players, who would watch CCFC occassionaly (a couple of times a year), rarely would watch Cov Rugby. Since WASPS moved in watched them a lot last year less so this year, but they will never go to CCFC now, if they want to meet up it will be around a WASPS game. They are not WASPS fans they are rugby fans and I do believe there is a distinct difference. Their main team they want to win is there country and I think a lot of paying rugby fans would but sucess for england / scotland ahead of club sucess. Football is the complete opposite to that.

I got slaughtered on here previously for saying this but I work with a lot of Saints fans and they have yet to convince that their pssion for their club is anywhere close to an average football fan, their family links to the club aren't there, and contaversially I believe a lot are there as they believe it is a middle class thing to do rather than watch football with all those ruffians in the stands. If Northampton got to the PL and became higher profile and would expect a significant drift to football.

I agree, Coventry won't be in Europe next year so I'm going to support Leicester instead.

 

[Hobo]

I agree, Coventry won't be in Europe next year so I'm going to support Leicester instead.

He was illustrating the difference between rugby fans and football fans. I am not sure you grasped that. But you have managed to endorse his view point.

 

[Otis]

I agree, Coventry won't be in Europe next year so I'm going to support Leicester instead.

That's the spirit!

Did hear from my mum that one of my oldest friends (haven't seen them for a while) that used to have a season ticket with me, has stopped watching the City and now goes to watch Wasps.

It's a crying shame.

 

[lamtara2006]

As a working class man, who watches football and Rugby (Northampton Saints) and has many working class mates who I also know at both sports (The Saints are embedded in their community a working class area) I would say your comment above is utter crap.

There is no difference between SISU and Wasps owners, both utter shits for moving their clubs and I dont want either near my football team.

I agree totally with your sentiment about moving clubs from the locality of their fan base, I can see no fundamental difference from the supporters' perspective and Wasps fans, if anything, faced a worse situation.

There is one fundamental difference between the owners however. While Coventry City, under Sisu control, has suffered declining fortunes - even allowing for an improvement this season - Wasps Rugby Club management have achieved tremendous success both on and off the field. Their main executives come across as professional and driven, communicate well and have succeeded in bringing on-side a good percentage of their supporters, while a large proportion of Sky Blue fans remain alienated by Sisu and their appointed Directors.

I won't be going to watch Wasps anytime soon, it's Coventry RFC for me. But I have to give respect to what Wasps have achieved, particularly as it shows up the failings at Coventry City by contrast.

 

[Otis]

I agree totally with your sentiment about moving clubs from the locality of their fan base, I can see no fundamental difference from the supporters' perspective and Wasps fans, if anything, faced a worse situation.

There is one fundamental difference between the owners however. While Coventry City, under Sisu control, has suffered declining fortunes - even allowing for an improvement this season - Wasps Rugby Club management have achieved tremendous success both on and off the field. Their main executives come across as professional and driven, communicate well and have succeeded in bringing on-side a good percentage of their supporters, while a large proportion of Sky Blue fans remain alienated by Sisu and their appointed Directors.

I won't be going to watch Wasps anytime soon, it's Coventry RFC for me. But I have to give respect to what Wasps have achieved, particularly as it shows up the failings at Coventry City by contrast.

But isn't it possibly not so much respect for what Wasps have achieved, but more total disappointment for the lack of good management from Sisu? You would expect all big businesses to be professional and driven wouldn't you?

 

[Nick]

He was illustrating the difference between rugby fans and football fans. I am not sure you grasped that. But you have managed to endorse his view point.

Surely if they had CCFC season tickets they are football fans?

His second paragraph was on about rugby fans who would watch CCFC a couple of times a year.

 

[Ashdown]

Maybe SISUs investors will want to hold them to account, I'm not one.

I am a council tax payer though, and I think they should be accountable for their part in this mess.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment the main protagonists will vanish off the political scene over time making it hard to nail the real culprits !

 

[Ashdown]

I agree totally with your sentiment about moving clubs from the locality of their fan base, I can see no fundamental difference from the supporters' perspective and Wasps fans, if anything, faced a worse situation.

There is one fundamental difference between the owners however. While Coventry City, under Sisu control, has suffered declining fortunes - even allowing for an improvement this season - Wasps Rugby Club management have achieved tremendous success both on and off the field. Their main executives come across as professional and driven, communicate well and have succeeded in bringing on-side a good percentage of their supporters, while a large proportion of Sky Blue fans remain alienated by Sisu and their appointed Directors.

I won't be going to watch Wasps anytime soon, it's Coventry RFC for me. But I have to give respect to what Wasps have achieved, particularly as it shows up the failings at Coventry City by contrast.

I'm hoping Cov RFC have a better year 2016-17. This year was a flop after last. I like the moves this new guy is making, I've thought for a while that they need a shake up at managerial level.

 

[Nick]

I'm hoping Cov RFC have a better year 2016-17. This year was a flop after last. I like the moves this new guy is making, I've thought for a while that they need a shake up at managerial level.

I'm tempted to go to a couple of games next season, I don't really understand rugby but I've heard the beer is decent

 

[lamtara2006]

But isn't it possibly not so much respect for what Wasps have achieved, but more total disappointment for the lack of good management from Sisu? You would expect all big businesses to be professional and driven wouldn't you?

I'd expect all GOOD business executives to be professional and driven, irrespective of the size of organisation.

I do think that in their particular market, Wasps are a fine example. Nick Eastwood and David Armstrong come over as very impressive individuals with a good long-term vision and dynamic strategy. Friends who support other clubs (Bath & Leicester) have commented positively on their experiences of visiting the Ricoh as away fans - not just the Arena but the whole "match-day experience" - and say that Wasps are perceived as being particularly well managed as a Premiership club.

All of which just increases my "total disappointment" with the way our football club has been operated for a very long time (including several years pre-Sisu) and the manifest failings on and off the field in this century.

 

[Ashdown]

I'm tempted to go to a couple of games next season, I don't really understand rugby but I've heard the beer is decent

It's a really good day out. Couple of pints in and around Craven St, another in the Broomfield. Proper grass roots rugby in a decent stand. The clubhouse is excellent and occasionally they have a cracking band on afterwards. I'll be doing a good few for sure. Last season I did about 12 matches inc. 2 away in London !

 

[Steve.B50]

Its a great day out!

 

[lamtara2006]

It's a really good day out. Couple of pints in and around Craven St, another in the Broomfield. Proper grass roots rugby in a decent stand. The clubhouse is excellent and occasionally they have a cracking band on afterwards. I'll be doing a good few for sure. Last season I did about 12 matches inc. 2 away in London !

And it still has a true "Club" feel to the place as opposed to the big corporate atmosphere that you get at many larger rugby clubs. The beer is definitely worth going to Cov RFC for, although I've also enjoyed a few pints of Purity at the Ricoh this season, despite the plastic glasses and the prices.

 

[shy_tall_knight]

I understand rugby played a lot of it at school have seen international matches live but no interest in Cov rugby and definitely won't be going to watch WASPS. The ST holder IK know who has jumped sides was there for the Gillingham return but didn't renew his ST, didn't go to Northants and than has joined WASPS including parter and kids, I think a fairly rare example but I'm sure there is a few

 

[Moff]

All due respect Moff do one.
If you would like to meet my friend who is a Saints fan who attends Wasps every second week and still maintains he is a saints fan then PM me.
Otherwise your post is full of shit.

I don't give a toss about Rugby or Wasps. I don't get the various people I know who live throughout the Midlands who now attend Wasps. It is their business not mine. From my experience people are happy to go wherever is easiest for them and they can watch good rugby . Whether that is the team they profess to support or not.

All due respect Dongo, why don't you do one, you pompous prick.

My post isn't full of shit. I would suggest yours is though as you base your extensive experience on one bloke who says he is a Saints fan but goes to watch Wasps. Wow a straw poll of one, as usual your finger is on the pulse. I base my facts on a greater number than one person you plum. Try getting out of your bubble a bit more you might learn something.

PM me, will be happy to meet him and you to discuss if you so wish.

 

[Jack Griffin]

When Tony, when exactly did SISU get the opportunity to bid for the Ricoh on the same terms as Wasps? On a 250-year lease, and at a similar price?

SISU took over in December 2007, they had 5 years to negotiate terms before they went on rent strike. Why don't you ask why they did not use that time to conclude a deal.

Instead they transferred the investment to ARVO a Cayman Island hedge fund with unknown beneficial owners and took out a debenture. http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/fears-grow-over-coventry-city-3025250

 

[Moff]

If you are a genuine football fan and rugby fan (like me) I bet you have been to football and rugby matches (like me) that hasn't involved a team from Coventry?

Football no. Rugby CRFC and Northampton Saints. Born in Northampton raised in Coventry.

So what's your point?

 

[Moff]

Moff rugby is a slightly different beast and if you know as much as you make out you know franchising exists in rugby. I have certainly read articles on it.

It takes a slightly different form in rationalisation, look at Welsh teams and Irish teams in the Pro 12. Scottish rugby ploughed money into Glasgow a non rugby city at the cost of another team/region now out of existence. Wasps aren't the only team trying to move out of London or trying to change leagues to get a different market are they?

If you are not aware of these facts you are not a rugby fan.

I know franchising exists in Rugby, we have one unwelcome team in Coventry. Thanks for reminding me about facts I am already aware of.

You completely miss the point, Shake it up claimed that all Rugby fans are ex boarding school, and not working class like Football fans. I am working class, and a lot of my fellow Saints fans are. The club is embedded in the community, of which its home is in a pretty working class area, so Shake it ups analysis was way off the mark, which was the point I was making.

This was nothing to do with franchising, so trying to lecture me about something I know already and wasn't even arguing about, then I suggest you were barking up the wrong tree.

 

[stupot07]

I understand rugby played a lot of it at school have seen international matches live but no interest in Cov rugby and definitely won't be going to watch WASPS. The ST holder IK know who has jumped sides was there for the Gillingham return but didn't renew his ST, didn't go to Northants and than has joined WASPS including parter and kids, I think a fairly rare example but I'm sure there is a few

Yep, completely agree. It makes me laugh when people try to make that they are completely different cohorts of supporters and wasps being here isn't competing for paying customers. I know a few like that too.

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[Otis]

It's a really good day out. Couple of pints in and around Craven St, another in the Broomfield. Proper grass roots rugby in a decent stand. The clubhouse is excellent and occasionally they have a cracking band on afterwards. I'll be doing a good few for sure. Last season I did about 12 matches inc. 2 away in London !

Its a great day out!

Is it a good day out though if you don't drink? All I hear is about the beer and local pubs and I know my daughter's best friend's dad is a Cov Rugby nut and he is always just talking about the beer.

Am I going to get bored if everyone is drinking and enjoying the game because of beer goggles while I am left there all sober and scratching my head?

 

[Moff]

Is it a good day out though if you don't drink? All I hear is about the beer and local pubs and I know my daughter's best friend's dad is a Cov Rugby nut and he is always just talking about the beer.

Am I going to get bored if everyone is drinking and enjoying the game because of beer goggles while I am left there all sober and scratching my head?

The beer does help sometimes.

For me I enjoy football more, but also like rugby a lot. I think if you aren't really a fan of the sport and are sober then its a 50/50 chance of you enjoying the experience if you are a neutral to the sport. Hope that helps!

 

[Nick]

Many fights on the pitch?

 

[Samo]

Is it a good day out though if you don't drink? All I hear is about the beer and local pubs and I know my daughter's best friend's dad is a Cov Rugby nut and he is always just talking about the beer.

Am I going to get bored if everyone is drinking and enjoying the game because of beer goggles while I am left there all sober and scratching my head?

It's not the lack of beer that ruins it Otis, it's the shape of the ball.

 

[Otis]

It's a really good day out. Couple of pints in and around Craven St, another in the Broomfield. Proper grass roots rugby in a decent stand. The clubhouse is excellent and occasionally they have a cracking band on afterwards. I'll be doing a good few for sure. Last season I did about 12 matches inc. 2 away in London !

Its a great day out!

The beer does help sometimes.

For me I enjoy football more, but also like rugby a lot. I think if you aren't really a fan of the sport and are sober then its a 50/50 chance of you enjoying the experience if you are a neutral to the sport. Hope that helps!

I like the game, but like most people, when watching on the TV I only know what any foul is given for when I see the TV replay. Even baffles the commentators too at times doesn't it!

Without someone saying what the foul is given for I am not going to have a clue in a live game as a supporter what someone has been penalised for half the time.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Many fights on the pitch?

Not so many now law has changed can get done for assault.
But still a cracking day out.

 

[ccfc92]

Not so many now law has changed can get done for assault.
But still a cracking day out.

That bloke who knocked out the other player in some rugby league final a year or two ago, did he get in trouble with the police?

 

[dongonzalos]

All due respect Dongo, why don't you do one, you pompous prick.

My post isn't full of shit. I would suggest yours is though as you base your extensive experience on one bloke who says he is a Saints fan but goes to watch Wasps. Wow a straw poll of one, as usual your finger is on the pulse. I base my facts on a greater number than one person you plum. Try getting out of your bubble a bit more you might learn something.

PM me, will be happy to meet him and you to discuss if you so wish.

You accused my post as Being full of shit Hence the apt reply I know two personally and both go with their mates.
One from work who is from the Black Country and one socially from round here.
Both used to go to Saints with 5-6 mates now they go to Wasps as it is easier.
They class themselves as Saints fans and will support Saints when they play Wasps at the Ricoh.
They go to the Ricoh to watch good rugby. Non of them have any connection to Northampton.
Yet you accuse new of being full of shit.
I have no reason to lie I couldn't give a toss about it.
I do not get it coming from a foitball background.
I don't judge them it's their business.
I have no reason to bull shit about it it is a fact.
If you don't believe me then yes you can meet either of them.
Don't give it the pompous prick shit. When you started it saying my post was full of shit completely unnecessarily.
Grendel is a WUM so I don't take too much offence to his rubbish. I just call him out to expose it.
Yours was out of line. Hence my reply