Legal action (2 Viewers)

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

Switzerland... the second richest country in the world seem to be doing alright, considering they're not in the EU... Just putting it out there

Just wanted to check that you're aware that Switzerland has access to the EU market and in return contributes to the EU budget, accepts the free movement of people and pretty much all the EU regulations on goods etc.

 

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[Kingokings204]

But you missed out that the EU makes our laws and rules. We have to keep to them even if they have a detrimental effect on us. We can't even decide what we can or can't charge VAT on.

Future planning on education, housing and health as you say? How can we plan when we can't keep up with the amount of people coming into the country? And more countries are joining all the time. And they are all allowed to come and live here if we stay in. I can't blame them. I would want to live here if I was living in most countries in the EU. But how long can it continue?

I honestly think some people miss the point to the EU. It's very obvious we should vote leave in my opinion. I actually think we will. Every paper is now running a million stories on why we should stay in and Cameron held a panic conference today. Vote Leave and people who believe in democracy are in the ascendancy.

 

[Monners]

I have a worked with the planning system for the last 10 years, and generally agree with your point on the housing shortage, but I don't think it is down timmigration. We only build houses in this counrty for profit, so they are not all in the right places, and are not affodable homes (smaller houses if you will) - more a result of right to buy and council house sell - Govt policy from decades ago.

Water quality - we now have the cleanest river systems that we have had for decades, and EU Directive is driving this. Take it from me, the cleaner the river system, the less it costs to purify water on abstraction, therefore the lower the cost to domestic users and industry (and by definition to end users in the shops - think food processing and agricultue for example)

Air quality - a huge issue in the urban environment in the UK. Thousands of deaths are lost to poor AQ each year due primarily to particulate matter amd nirogen dioxide emmisions. The cost to the NHS is huge with chronic illness - don't take my word for it, have look at the Public Health England website.

Agriculture - the Common Agricultural Policy is in need of drastic reform. But its wrong to say that the UK farming industry does not benfit from this in subsidy payments, and not to leave land fallow - set aside ended a number of years ago. Add to this the animal welfare and food regulations, which standardise produce thus making easier for expert/import.

There is also conservation directives (which the UK is pretty good at in delivering), and climate change adaptation and mitigation (which deliver economic resilience).

The vote should not be about a single issue - for me it's about a stable (as possible) economy, and a well maintained functioning environment supports this.

The politicans have done an unbelievably poor job in their approach to the vote.

I had better log off ad continue to save the earth!

 

[Astute]

Just wanted to check that you're aware that Switzerland has access to the EU market and in return contributes to the EU budget, accepts the free movement of people and pretty much all the EU regulations on goods etc.

Yes they do have access to the EU. Like I said earlier they export more to it than we do. And you hear the scare stories that you need to be in to be able to export to it.

Would you like to tell everyone how much they pay in? Then put it against what we put in?

 

[SkyBlueZack]

Does the EU make all our laws and rules then? Do they give out the sentences too? So the laws around working that come from the EU, what do we think about them? The immigration thing is propaganda just like the benefit shit they trot out. When you go to a hospital, are all the nurses and doctors British? Where would the NHS be without people from other countries with skills and expertise coming here? Funny as people have mentioned before we have no money but there is always money for a war. Now is that because we're in the EU or not?

As I have said I'm neither in or out because don't believe it makes any difference. We need the people in power to change, that can/can't happen in/out of the EU.

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

Yes they do have access to the EU. Like I said earlier they export more to it than we do. And you hear the scare stories that you need to be in to be able to export to it.

Would you like to tell everyone how much they pay in? Then put it against what we put in?

No idea, but I'm sure that you can.

Of course, we do get to contribute to and influence policy unlike them.

As for the "scare stories", the nonsense that irritates me from BoJo and Nigel is that we can quit the EU but still have free trade with them, while no longer having free movement of labour or needing to follow EU regulations.

But then one day they tell us that when we leave we can negotiate a fantastic trade deal with China and the next day they tell us that when we leave we can stop China dumping steel on us - that's going to be a hell of an impressive set of negotiations.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Remain Vincelot for me.

Otis...is that you?!

 

[Astute]

The vote should not be about a single issue - for me it's about a stable (as possible) economy, and a well maintained functioningg environment supports this.

Have saved just what you called your main point. Not even going to debate about the right to buy being partly at fault when it isn't with these houses being lived in so not adding to housing shortage but only affordable shortage

You say that the most important thing is a stable economy. Do you think that leaving your borders open to about 500m and growing fast population mainly from countries in a poor state leads to a stable economy?

 

[SkyBlueZack]

The whole blame the foreigners that come here argument rather than the people that actually run the country is a pretty poor argument. The country needs regulating, top to bottom. This is nothing to do with immigration, it's to do with career politicians and short term planning.

 

[Astute]

No idea, but I'm sure that you can.

Of course, we do get to contribute to and influence policy unlike them.

As for the "scare stories", the nonsense that irritates me from BoJo and Nigel is that we can quit the EU but still have free trade with them, while no longer having free movement of labour or needing to follow EU regulations.

But then one day they tell us that when we leave we can negotiate a fantastic trade deal with China and the next day they tell us that when we leave we can stop China dumping steel on us - that's going to be a hell of an impressive set of negotiations.

We hardly have any influence. That is the problem.

And yes it has been a poor campaign from most of both sides. It has mainly been scare stories and time taken up showing both sides are pushing it with the truth.

If we could take back control of our borders I might lean back towards staying. But that will never happen.

 

[Astute]

The whole blame the foreigners that come here argument rather than the people that actually run the country is a pretty poor argument. The country needs regulating, top to bottom. This is nothing to do with immigration, it's to do with career politicians and short term planning.

If the people running the country could make the laws and rules I would agree with you. But they can't. All they can do is work out the best way of dealing with the rules and regulations given to them.

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

We hardly have any influence. That is the problem.

And yes it has been a poor campaign from most of both sides. It has mainly been scare stories and time taken up showing both sides are pushing it with the truth.

If we could take back control of our borders I might lean back towards staying. But that will never happen.

In a community that large, our influence is always going to be limited, but I think that we have generally punched above our weight. From what I read, the general view in Europe is that one of the main reasons they want us to stay is to be a bit of a balance to Germany's influence.

On the immigration matter, I see that it's a big issue to many people - personally I'm much more relaxed. Economically speaking we've always done well out of immigration - it's probably the key reason for our current growth - but longer term, with an ageing population we need it.

As discussed above, the other point is that I believe that if we're going to continue to trade freely with the EU, we're going to have to accept free movement of labour anyway - this keeps on being danced around in the campaigning.

 

[SkyBlueZack]

http://www.parliament.uk/education/about-your-parliament/how-laws-are-made/

Can't see anything in there about the EU.

But as Professor Anthony Arnull, an expert in European law at Birmingham Law School explained to FactCheck, to truly make an assessment you would have to look beyond the numbers, at a more precise level of UK legislative detail.

He said that because of the UK’s remaining jurisdiction over key areas such as health, education and defence – as well as the sheer difficulty in measuring the UK/EU law balance – it meant the 75 per cent claim was unlikely to be true.

Prof Arnull added: “The claim, in a sense, is meant to sound like a negative by UKIP, but often we [the UK] would have implemented these laws anyway, or even initiated them – so that would need to be taken into account too perhaps.

“While if you have a piece of legislation with 200 sections, and one section comes from the EU, does the whole act then get defined as ‘from Brussels’?”

It’s also important to keep in mind that the EU’s powers are mainly regulatory, as opposed to budgetary. So the volume of laws might not always translate into impact and importance either.

The fact the UKIP figure was based on a six-year old German analysis, which in itself had flaws, is enough to suggest this claim is a step too far.

Clearly this is a complex issue, and difficult to prove, but there is a lack of evidence to suggest 75 per cent, or even half, of the UK’s laws now come from Brussels.

 

[Astute]

http://www.parliament.uk/education/about-your-parliament/how-laws-are-made/

Can't see anything in there about the EU.

But as Professor Anthony Arnull, an expert in European law at Birmingham Law School explained to FactCheck, to truly make an assessment you would have to look beyond the numbers, at a more precise level of UK legislative detail.

He said that because of the UK’s remaining jurisdiction over key areas such as health, education and defence – as well as the sheer difficulty in measuring the UK/EU law balance – it meant the 75 per cent claim was unlikely to be true.

Prof Arnull added: “The claim, in a sense, is meant to sound like a negative by UKIP, but often we [the UK] would have implemented these laws anyway, or even initiated them – so that would need to be taken into account too perhaps.

“While if you have a piece of legislation with 200 sections, and one section comes from the EU, does the whole act then get defined as ‘from Brussels’?”

It’s also important to keep in mind that the EU’s powers are mainly regulatory, as opposed to budgetary. So the volume of laws might not always translate into impact and importance either.

The fact the UKIP figure was based on a six-year old German analysis, which in itself had flaws, is enough to suggest this claim is a step too far.

Clearly this is a complex issue, and difficult to prove, but there is a lack of evidence to suggest 75 per cent, or even half, of the UK’s laws now come from Brussels.

If you can't see anything about the EU then who is it that makes the majority of our laws?

And we can all find people with the same views we would like to portray.

 

[chiefdave]

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

 

[Astute]

On the immigration matter, I see that it's a big issue to many people - personally I'm much more relaxed. Economically speaking we've always done well out of immigration - it's probably the key reason for our current growth - but longer term, with an ageing population we need it.

I fully agree that we need people to come and live here. But it would be much better if we had a say in what skills and how many instead of not having any say. Just like with those allowed to settle here from outside the EU. We don't have the infrastructure for those already here. And that can't be built overnight. And if our borders are left open we will always be playing catchup.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I have a worked with the planning system for the last 10 years

Would you like to help find us valid reasons to object to the Higgs proposals then?

 

[Astute]

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

And do you understand and get any true numbers from it?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

On the immigration matter, I see that it's a big issue to many people - personally I'm much more relaxed. Economically speaking we've always done well out of immigration - it's probably the key reason for our current growth - but longer term, with an ageing population we need it.

What concerns me is we always have the conflation between economic immigrants, asylum seekers... and bad people.

The first two should always be encouraged, the latter shouldn't be held up as a reason to give up on the former.

 

[armybike]

I think we'll stay in and it'll be more down to the British psyche than all the facts and figures that are being thrown around - we don't like change.

I'm not saying this is a good barometer when presented with such an important decision, but has similarities of why people stay in jobs they don't like etc.

This couple with the natural instinct to be risk averse.

The 'campaigns' for both sides, again in my opinion, have been awful but I think the Remain side have muddied the waters enough for people to question if the guarantees are in place most importantly that it wouldn't impact on people's pockets if we left.

There's also the bookies odds (yes I know not another ideal tool but has more often proved to be correct) are showing the vote going to remain.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The 'campaigns' for both sides, again in my opinion, have been awful

They've been atrocious.

There's an argument to be made to leave, ref: a word where there's devolved power, a centralising entity such as the EU runs counter to that. There's also an argument to be made that a policy of tax, spend, and tariffs is easier outside of the EU.

Of course nobody makes any of those arguments, it boils down to Immigration bad, and a few made-up scaremongering stats.

 

[Grendel]

Yes they do have access to the EU. Like I said earlier they export more to it than we do. And you hear the scare stories that you need to be in to be able to export to it.

Would you like to tell everyone how much they pay in? Then put it against what we put in?

The Swiss figure is hugely distorted by the fact the majority of their export items are high value.

It terms of dependancy it's not a relevant example. They are not reliant on manufactured trade.

 

[Sick Boy]

Why do we have a trusted water supply and the rest of Europe doesn't?

What are you going on about?

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

I fully agree that we need people to come and live here. But it would be much better if we had a say in what skills and how many instead of not having any say. Just like with those allowed to settle here from outside the EU. We don't have the infrastructure for those already here. And that can't be built overnight. And if our borders are left open we will always be playing catchup.

It is of course, all part of the free market debate - free movement of labour, capital and goods, which are key pillars of the EU. As an aside, the EU is finally moving on services and as that's our relative strong point, it'd be ironic if we left just as that was happening.

I believe that if we stick to the closed borders approach that "Leave" is preaching, then we won't get access to the EU market on a tariff free basis and that that will do serious damage to our economy.

It's fair to say that there must come a point where the country "couldn't cope" with the number of people, but politicians have been claiming that immigration has reached that point for (at least) the last couple of hundred years. That doesn't mean that it'll never happen, but I do take the apocalyptic warnings with a fairly healthy pinch of salt.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

People are aware that most of Britains problems stems from mis management of the country rather than being part of the EU? People coming here to claim benefits is no different to British people claiming benefits, it's how the system is set up. The NHS being in crisis has nothing to do with the fact no attention has been paid to ever increasing numbers of managers and dwindling numbers of nurses. How many people will want to work for the NHS after the attack on junior doctors? What did that have to do with being part of the EU? Government departments paying out varying amounts for office equipment and supplies etc. Not using the buying power as a whole government to get cheap deals and save money? Is that because we're part of the EU? People live longer, in part to the NHS. This means pensions have to be paid for longer. Did people not see that coming? Or was that because we were in the EU?

I'm not in or out. Don't think it makes too much difference. What would make a difference is politicians who believe in equality and a brighter future for everyone. That will not happen whether we are in the EU or out. There has been a distinct lack of future planning surrounding education, housing, health and so on. Now is that because we are part of the EU? Or because politicans only care about staying in power and the short term?

That shouldn't be the reason people come to our Country. Many genuine people living on benefits have been deemed fit to work that physically or mentally are incapable of doing so have commited suicide because they can't cope on the money they're getting. The Government have hidden figures of the proof but now are being pushed to show those figures. Why do you think that fucking little weasel Ian Duncan Smith resigned??? These poor people have had money that they're ,entitled too taken away and given to economic migrants that have paid sweet FA into the system. If you come to Britain to work..No problem, but if you come to claim the benefits then bugger off.

 

[Sick Boy]

My girlfriend has had idiots being abusive in the street for daring to talk Italian on the phone. We also had comments made when we were speaking Italian together on the train, the idiot got a shock when I tuned out to be English If there is a vote to leave we aim to have left the country by the end of the summer and go and live in Italy. She is midwife with a 1:1 degree. At least when the pounds drops in value we will get good value when we come over here to visit.

 

[torchomatic]

I'm a Remainer on the whole I think. Mainly because I'm scared of the army of Zebras and Polar Bears that Mr Cameron said will attack us if we leave.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

I'm a Remainer on the whole I think. Mainly because I'm scared of the army of Zebras and Polar Bears that Mr Cameron said will attack us if we leave.

You want to keep your fingers crossed that he doesn't change his mind on Trident. Your piss take could become a reality!

 

[torchomatic]

You want to keep your fingers crossed that he doesn't change his mind on Trident. Your piss take could become a reality!

It's actually quite difficult for me. As a leftie it's odd being on the same "sides" as heartless fucks like Osborne and Cameron.

I have noticed that people who want to leave are usually the retired who think they'll be living in an Ealing Comedy if the country votes for Brexit. Many people who want to leave are well off enough for it not to affect them whatever happens.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

It's actually quite difficult for me. As a leftie it's odd being on the same "sides" as heartless fucks like Osborne and Cameron.

I have noticed that people who want to leave are usually the retired who think they'll be living in an Ealing Comedy if the country votes for Brexit. Many people who want to leave are well off enough for it not to affect them whatever happens.

You're forgetting Corbyn!

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

It's actually quite difficult for me. As a leftie it's odd being on the same "sides" as heartless fucks like Osborne and Cameron.

I have noticed that people who want to leave are usually the retired who think they'll be living in an Ealing Comedy if the country votes for Brexit. Many people who want to leave are well off enough for it not to affect them whatever happens.

You're living in cloud cuckoo land mate. Most people of retiring age had their personal pensions stolen from them by previous, and present Governments. My late Father-in-law had saved all of his working life with pensions only to have his wife denied by the Government at the time (Tory bas***ds) the money he paid into.

 

[torchomatic]

You're forgetting Corbyn!

I try to.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It's fair to say that there must come a point where the country "couldn't cope" with the number of people, but politicians have been claiming that immigration has reached that point for (at least) the last couple of hundred years.

In a true free market, once we reach that they'll all go and live in Botswana, anyway.

I dunno, I'd rather live in a country people want to come *to*, rather than they can't wait to leave! It suggests all is (generally) pretty well with our own little corner of the world.

 

[chiefdave]

As a leftie it's odd being on the same "sides" as heartless fucks like Osborne and Cameron

But the other side is Boris, Gove and Farage!

 

[Astute]

It's actually quite difficult for me. As a leftie it's odd being on the same "sides" as heartless fucks like Osborne and Cameron.

I have noticed that people who want to leave are usually the retired who think they'll be living in an Ealing Comedy if the country votes for Brexit. Many people who want to leave are well off enough for it not to affect them whatever happens.

If you look at the ones shouting the most to stay you will find the majority to be silver spoon tories.