BPA Update (14 Viewers)

[Kingokings204]

We represent 1.4% of their annual revenue. I think investors would want far more than that if the club stays - or they will see us as an inhibitor.

Well is it 1.4%? When we attract more fans than they do. I haven't got a clue if I'm honest but I will go with it.

I'm guessing that's if our rent stays at 100k per season which I doubt it will be. Sure more rent means we are more useful to them in their eyes.

 

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[Deleted member 5849]

We represent 1.4% of their annual revenue. I think investors would want far more than that if the club stays - or they will see us as an inhibitor.

And therein lies the problem that's always going to perpetuate itself. Wasps will (naturally) want the best deal for them, but there's a fair chance that won't be remotely the best deal for us.

The only way we might win out is if Wasps prove to be shoddy negotiators. tbf, given they failed dismally in their negotiations to play in London, there's a fair chance they are...

 

[Grendel]

Well is it 1.4%? When we attract more fans than they do. I haven't got a clue if I'm honest but I will go with it.

I'm guessing that's if our rent stays at 100k per season which I doubt it will be. Sure more rent means we are more useful to them in their eyes.

ACL have a total turnover of around £20 - £21 million I believe. It's frankly absurd to suggest we are valuable to their investors.

The rent will have to be increased by 8 or 9 fold to justify that.

That would halve our playing budget.

 

[stupot07]

Well is it 1.4%? When we attract more fans than they do. I haven't got a clue if I'm honest but I will go with it.

I'm guessing that's if our rent stays at 100k per season which I doubt it will be. Sure more rent means we are more useful to them in their eyes.

Tbf, we only pay £100k rent, and they only get £75k profit on f&bs, and then car parking? Its not alot given their turnover. I would think any new deal wasps will be wanting to increase rent significantly to justify us staying. They don't need us there on current terms.

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[Captain Dart]

No, they definitely definitely definitely want us there and to demonstrate this have put negoations on hold.......oh, hang on a minute!

I think that is a tactic to put pressure on the CCFC, a 2 year countdown is now ticking, meanwhile the FA/FL continue to ask for progress on that new stadium.
There is nothing to stop Wasps agreeing something at the last moment, I assume they are confident there is no realistic new ground plan, everybody will get a heads up if ever a planning application is submitted.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

countdown is now ticking

The clock is indeed ticking.

Age old negotiating strategy that, eh.

 

[Kingokings204]

I think that is a tactic to put pressure on the CCFC, a 2 year countdown is now ticking, meanwhile the FA/FL continue to ask for progress on that new stadium.
There is nothing to stop Wasps agreeing something at the last moment, I assume they are confident there is no realistic new ground plan, everybody will get a heads up if ever a planning application is submitted.

That's the problem in a nut shell. Wasps hold all the cards and we don't have a pot to piss in.

 

[Kingokings204]

ACL have a total turnover of around £20 - £21 million I believe. It's frankly absurd to suggest we are valuable to their investors.

The rent will have to be increased by 8 or 9 fold to justify that.

That would halve our playing budget.

That's still 800k which is almost half a million less than before. It isn't going to stay at 100k forever I agree.

We could be valuable to their investors is what I'm saying. Not that I want to be valuable to their investors by the way I just want to watch my team in my home city in 2 years time.

 

[Captain Dart]

ACL have a total turnover of around £20 - £21 million I believe. It's frankly absurd to suggest we are valuable to their investors.

The rent will have to be increased by 8 or 9 fold to justify that.

That would halve our playing budget.

We represent 1.4% of their annual revenue. I think investors would want far more than that if the club stays - or they will see us as an inhibitor.

http://coventryobserver.co.uk/news/...utts-move-attractive-says-coventry-city-boss/

Mr Anderson said Coventry City Football Club estimates it received a paltry circa £75,000 of non-ticketing matchday revenue as tenants of the Ricoh Arena in the season just ended.

It comprised of just £72,000 from the sale of kiosk food and drink to fans around the stadium concourse – with 85 per cent of those revenues going to ACL/Wasps – and just £2,700 from car parking from just five games, with the rest going to ACL/Wasps.

Where did you get the figure of 1.4% from?

The rent is £100K, 15% of F&B is £75K, so the rest is approx £425K and parking assume car parks half full, 1000 cars at £5 for 25 matches is £125K. I make that £650K or roughly 3%.

 

[Grendel]

Ive

Where did you get the figure of 1.4% from?

The rent is £100K, 15% of F&B is £75K, so the rest is approx £425K and parking assume car parks half full, 1000 cars at £5 for 25 matches is £125K. I make that £650K or roughly 3%.

I thought the food beverage went to the other company partly owned by compass so I excluded it

 

[Captain Dart]

Ive


I thought the food beverage went to the other company partly owned by compass so I excluded it

They take a smaller cut. I should take their bit out. So say roughly 2.5% then.

 

[Grendel]

They take a smaller cut. I should take their bit out. So say roughly 2.5% then.

Either way it's nothing is it? Especially as for some odd reason the F and B revenue at the Ricoh has a very low profit margin,

To actually become of interest to wasps our net contribution would have to be significantly higher.

 

[skybluetony176]

ACL have a total turnover of around £20 - £21 million I believe. It's frankly absurd to suggest we are valuable to their investors.

The rent will have to be increased by 8 or 9 fold to justify that.

That would halve our playing budget.

You are only measuring our value in monetary terms of what the club pay out though. We also bring footfall which helps the casino, hotel and other businesses that operate from the site. That's an added value above what the club pays out in cash. We also raise the profile of the Ricoh. Again this is an added value from the club being there. You're looking at it two dimensionally and failing to see the bigger picture. I would imagine that this added value would be part of the points CA had brought to the negotiation table before they went on hold.

 

[Grendel]

You are only measuring our value in monetary terms of what the club pay out though. We also bring footfall which helps the casino, hotel and other businesses that operate from the site. That's an added value above what the club pays out in cash. We also raise the profile of the Ricoh. Again this is an added value from the club being there. You're looking at it two dimensionally and failing to see the bigger picture. I would imagine that this added would be part of the points CA had brought to the negotiation table before they went on hold.

Do ACL own the hotel and the casino?

 

[Captain Dart]

You are only measuring our value in monetary terms of what the club pay out though. We also bring footfall which helps the casino, hotel and other businesses that operate from the site. That's an added value above what the club pays out in cash. We also raise the profile of the Ricoh. Again this is an added value from the club being there. You're looking at it two dimensionally and failing to see the bigger picture. I would imagine that this added would be part of the points CA had brought to the negotiation table before they went on hold.

Certainly enhances the arena sponsorship potential.

If you search you will find some information about various franchise deals Wasps signed, what I notice is that they are all quite long term deals, which I guess is a move to make them secure.

https://www.thecaterer.com/articles/359472/levy-restaurants-converts-195m-wasps-rugby-deal
http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s96.htm?98,15283138,15284237

The hotel is some sort of franchise run by Hilton, there are lots of DoubleTree hotels worldwide.

The casino would undoubtedly take a hit if CCFC did not play at the Ricoh.

 

[stupot07]

They take a smaller cut. I should take their bit out. So say roughly 2.5% then.

Its probably less than that, £100k rent, £72k profit on f&bs (we get 50%, they get 50%), and your estimate of £125k on parking (although they will have costs for the 15-20 people that man it), so £300k, so probably is not far off G's 1.5%.

I wonder how many bookings they have to turn down when we're at home....

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[Grendel]

Certainly enhances the arena sponsorship potential.

Which the club wouldn't benefit from.

 

[skybluetony176]

Do ACL own the hotel and the casino?

They don't have to. ACL is there to (amongst other things) promote footfall for the whole site and generate business for the whole site and the presence of CCFC aids them to do that. Again, an added value. Whether they own the casino and hotel is irrelevant and as usual you've missed the point. Whether that's deliberate ignorance or stupidity I'll let you decide.

 

[skybluetony176]

Which the club wouldn't benefit from.

The club could benefit from it though if they were as capable as West Hams owners. They're taking a cut from stadium sponsorship of the Olympic stadium because they have sold the added value to the owners and this has rewarded them.

 

[stupot07]

The club could benefit from it though if they were as capable as West Hams owners. They're taking a cut from stadium sponsorship of the Olympic stadium because they have sold the added value to the owners and this has rewarded them.

Can you see wasps handing over a cut of the stadium sponsorship?

Our situation is very different to west hams.

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[skybluetony176]

Can you see wasps handing over a cut of the stadium sponsorship?

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No. But I can see the possibility of the club negotiating for a share. Wasps aren't going to hand us nothing. That's not how business works. There's a model already there with West Ham and this is what CA should be using. It's been done once, no reason why it can't happen again but all parties involved need to understand the added value that the club brings to the Ricoh. It's not just about two dimensional figures on a spread sheet.

 

[stupot07]

No. But I can see the possibility of the club negotiating for a share. Wasps aren't going to hand us nothing. That's not how business works. There's a model already there with West Ham and this is what CA should be using. It's been done once, no reason why it can't happen again but all parties involved need to understand the added value that the club brings to the Ricoh. It's not just about two dimensional figures on a spread sheet.

I can't see it myself. Any share of the naming rights will be counter balanced by an increase in rent. Unfortunately with the monopoly wasps have they don't have to accept deal which leaves them short in the pocket.

The west ham model is a completely different beast.

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[Grendel]

They don't have to. ACL is there to (amongst other things) promote footfall for the whole site and generate business for the whole site and the presence of CCFC aids them do that. Again, an added value. Whether they own the casino and hotel is irrelevant and as usual you've missed the point. Whether that's deliberate ignorance or stupidity I'll let you decide.

I assume that ACL are paid a ground rent by these organisations regardless of footfall Tony so I'm a bit puzzled by this.

Also I would say from a footfall perspective both these institutions would consider alternatives. Do you think for example the hotel would prefer out of town people or people from CCFC? If it's out of town it people then surely they would rather more concerts and see CCFC as an inhibitor to footfall?

In fact as CCFC have primacy this prevents wasps from having games on a Saturday. When you look at footfall from a hotel perspective Friday Saturday are key. So having more wasps games on a Saturday I would think would outweigh any CCFC presence there.

If that's ignorance or stupidity - or a lack of understanding of substitution impact Tony well I'll suggest you take a course on economics.

 

[ccfcway]

I would say from a footfall perspective both these institutions would consider alternatives. Do you think for example the hotel would prefer out of town people or people from CCFC? If it's out of town it people then surely they would rather more concerts and see CCFC as an inhibitor to footfall?

I would suggest the hotel and casino want both. They would welcome all activity. concerts, football, rugby, any events have to be better for footfall than their average Tuesday night.

Also, when ccfc play at home, its very difficult to get a room at the hotel. I normally stay in town as they are full.

 

[stupot07]

I would suggest the hotel and casino want both. They would welcome all activity. concerts, football, rugby, any events have to be better for footfall than their average Tuesday night.

Also, when ccfc play at home, its very difficult to get a room at the hotel. I normally stay in town as they are full.

Isnt that because the rooms are closed to be used as boxes?

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[ccfcway]

Isnt that because the rooms are closed to be used as boxes?

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they open them up afterwards

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I can't see it myself. Any share of the naming rights will be counter balanced by an increase in rent. Unfortunately with the monopoly wasps have they don't have to accept deal which leaves them short in the pocket.

The west ham model is a completely different beast.

Yeah, West Ham had the alternative option of staying at Upton Park to negotiate a better deal.

(That being said, I'm not convinced the West Ham deal is all that, and anything but a short term cash bump in the hope it pays off)

 

[dongonzalos]

We represent 1.4% of their annual revenue. I think investors would want far more than that if the club stays - or they will see us as an inhibitor.

I spoke to someone who works at the Ricoh.
He is there are events and conferences almost daily now.
Plus with the big gigs back as well.
I don't think Wasps will have as much trouble meeting their commitments as some think.
It just shows the absolute potential the Ricoh/ACL had.
It also still makes me think that Wasps would take us on if we were available in administration without the debts.

 

[Grendel]

The comparison of London council to wasps is moronic even by Tonys standards. It seriously requires no discussion.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I don't think Wasps will have as much trouble meeting their commitments as some think.

We'll find out in time, of course.

Truth be told, I don't know. I think it'd be unwise to say assertively one way or another yet however... and external events could well influence whether they do or not.

 

[Grendel]

I spoke to someone who works at the Ricoh.
He is there are events and conferences almost daily now.
Plus with the big gigs back as well.
I don't think Wasps will have as much trouble meeting their commitments as some think.
It just shows the absolute potential the Ricoh/ACL had.
It also still makes me think that Wasps would take us on if we were available in administration without the debts.

The turnover hasn't improved from 2006 / 7 has it? If you throw in the main sports club? It was £20 million then wasn't it?

 

[dongonzalos]

The turnover hasn't improved from 2006 / 7 has it? If you throw in the main sports club? It was £20 million then wasn't it?

Spoke to the chap last night
He works there in a company renting office space.
Said the change recently is crazy.
Conferences and exhibitions on a daily basis now.

 

[Grendel]

Spoke to the chap last night
He works there in a company renting office space.
Said the change recently is crazy.
Conferences and exhibitions on a daily basis now.

Turnover hasn't changed has it?

 

[dongonzalos]

Turnover hasn't changed has it?

If business has increased I would have to guess it will have improved unless the conferences and events cost more than the money they bring in?

 

[skybluetony176]

I assume that ACL are paid a ground rent by these organisations regardless of footfall Tony so I'm a bit puzzled by this.

Also I would say from a footfall perspective both these institutions would consider alternatives. Do you think for example the hotel would prefer out of town people or people from CCFC? If it's out of town it people then surely they would rather more concerts and see CCFC as an inhibitor to footfall?

In fact as CCFC have primacy this prevents wasps from having games on a Saturday. When you look at footfall from a hotel perspective Friday Saturday are key. So having more wasps games on a Saturday I would think would outweigh any CCFC presence there.

If that's ignorance or stupidity - or a lack of understanding of substitution impact Tony well I'll suggest you take a course on economics.

Of course you puzzled. You're an idiot.

Everytime we play at home there are out of town people. It's called the away crowd.

Wasps play more games on a Saturday now don't they as their home schedule can work around ours, we don't play home every Saturday. They can't have more concerts either during the Rugby season because of the set up/take down time and recovery time for the pitch so actually football one week Rugby the next is the simplest,easiest and most sensible way to increase footfall during the bulk of the year. The big concerts will always be a summer folly to replace the lack of footfall from sport events at the Ricoh.

Also strange you ignore the casino which is always pretty packed before and after a game. That's footfall that would go with the football club there and would impact on their business reducing their turnover and profit. The hotel aren't the only company permanently based there and these companies rely on footfall from CCFC playing there. It's plain ignorant to ignore this. Or stupidity, you decide.