Yes I did. were you one of those chanting brexit-Shit?
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (74 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
No, I haven't, but we have put the UK on wobble through believing the leavers.
Er no, I was replying specifically to Ashdown's comments about 'applauding' refugees and his suggestion that I should stay in Germany with 'them' ( the refugees ).
That was not just suspicion and it was not tarnishing the other 17 million, although hate crimes have increased which would suggest that there are some racists amongst them.
Wasn't that just Mart though?
It seems the race card is on fire recently, lots of racist graffiti appearing since the Brexit Vote. I'd put money on a large % of it being done by people who wanted to remain
No. Read Ashdown's sarcastic post above Mine, about 'applauding' refugees ( which I did at a football match ) and his suggestion that I stay in Germany with 'them'. I will be applying for German nationality - but keeping my British. That way I can remain even though England is leaving.
Moff
Well-Known Member
Fair point taken on board.
Moff
Well-Known Member
The wobble wont last forever, although looking at how the next few years may pan out, the wobble may be back and forth like a yoyo.
I haven't seen on here or anywhere in England 'People telling foreigners to go home'. I'm not denying a handful of lunatics will get the wrong end of the stick and cause trouble but it's those same types who would be causing bother anyway on a Saturday night. Like others you are maintaining this has all been about immigration, for many it is about other matters.
On immigration, only a handful surely don't understand that the ideal solution is carefully managed and controlled migration of people who can enhance and improve the nation but the rejection of those economic migrants purely looking at the UK as the 'land of milk and honey' and those who refuse to integrate on mainly religious grounds and also anyone who provides a security threat.
Many I know just voted Leave for self determination for the UK people to make those decisions and it has to be said a lot are completely disgusted with the North/South divide and the inequality that brings not to mention the spiteful austerity programmes which also seem to beset places more, North of Watford.
On immigration, only a handful surely don't understand that the ideal solution is carefully managed and controlled migration of people who can enhance and improve the nation but the rejection of those economic migrants purely looking at the UK as the 'land of milk and honey' and those who refuse to integrate on mainly religious grounds and also anyone who provides a security threat.
Many I know just voted Leave for self determination for the UK people to make those decisions and it has to be said a lot are completely disgusted with the North/South divide and the inequality that brings not to mention the spiteful austerity programmes which also seem to beset places more, North of Watford.
Problem is that if Scotland or Northern Ireland go, there is no turning back.
Moff
Well-Known Member
That's very true.
I do feel there is a lot more to it though, than NI and Scotland just voting to stay in. Sturgeon is playing a great PR game at the moment, and clearly wants independence and yes sadly the referendum works in her favour on this issue. I believe independence is truly her goal and she is happy to use EU membership as a ploy to get Scotland's second referendum. Personally I feel that she knows that there is a lot more to Scotland staying in the EU, including significant financial and possible austerity measures which may preclude Scotland ever being a member state.
I don't think voters realised the side effects of leave. The whole Northern Ireland fragile peace agreement is now in jeopardy. A new EU border could arise with people smuggling and other smuggling easier over a land border into and out of Britain. Border controls in Ireland emphasise the old problems of Ireland.
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dutchman
Well-Known Member
The SNP is on the slide in Scotland, they used to have an overall majority but are now part of a coalition. The Tories are having a resurgence in Scotland under their new leader.
Another problem for Sturgeon is that the original Scottish referendum called for an independent Scotland that was within an EU which included England and shared a common currency whereas a future independent Scotland would be in an EU which did not include England, may have a different currency and possibly even border controls between the two countries.
Another problem for Sturgeon is that the original Scottish referendum called for an independent Scotland that was within an EU which included England and shared a common currency whereas a future independent Scotland would be in an EU which did not include England, may have a different currency and possibly even border controls between the two countries.
olderskyblue
Well-Known Member
No. I believe everyone has the right to vote how they want, and because it didn't go my way, i'm not going to cry and whinge about it like a 2 year old having a tantrum.
dutchman
Well-Known Member
There's nothing to stop Ireland from leaving the EU, they only joined in the first place because Britain did.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Brexit: No EU compromise on freedom of movement
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36659900
I wonder if that was the issue that Mr Cameron and all the remainers rather forgot to mention.
Of course being told that by Tusk & Juncker is likely to get up the nose of leavers who were simply after a big restriction of immigration.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36659900
I wonder if that was the issue that Mr Cameron and all the remainers rather forgot to mention.
Of course being told that by Tusk & Juncker is likely to get up the nose of leavers who were simply after a big restriction of immigration.
*Written by someone in the last few years and subsequently attributed to Cicero*
That's good to know.
Which is true, but are people in Ireland wanting to leave now that England is leaving? I don't know, do you?
They would have to have border controls I would have thought, especially if England wants controlled migration from the EU.
dutchman
Well-Known Member
No I don't. They may not 'want' to leave but it might be in their best interests.
Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
Damn, my Classics are kicking In. Wasn't Cicero's time at the fall of the Roman Republic?
Happens with all political system. The people that use the system abuse the hell out of it...
Happens with all political system. The people that use the system abuse the hell out of it...
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SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately for the Germans, the view in other EU countries is 'Merkel invited the migrants in (800k a year wasn't it?), Germany can deal with it'
Yes, fancy Germany believing in humanity and aiding people fleeing a terrible war... If only they had turned them back and let them perish. Bad Merkel. Merkel thought that we shared common values. She has been proved wrong on that. Migrants are still coming although Germany has got tougher and as Merkel says, Syria will not be the problem long term, Africa will.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Yes, you're right.
The EU will fall apart long before the UK does. No country in their right mind would join the EU now, not even Scotland.
It's clearly a failed experiment in so many ways. A sinking ship. There is widespread mistrust and dissatisfaction of the EU in Southern European countries as well as France, Netherlands, Sweden and even Germany. In many of those countries there is EU resentment at 50% and more among the population. You can't keep the lid on that level of resentment for ever.
The coming months and certainly the next couple of years will show that the EU needs the UK far more than the UK needs the EU.
It's doomed.
Good riddance.
Moff
Well-Known Member
Well it looks like Sturgeons master plan has, at this time, met some opposition
Brexit: Spain and France oppose Scotland EU talks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980
Brexit: Spain and France oppose Scotland EU talks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980
Moff
Well-Known Member
Good point Dutchman, I can assume that Spain will be fairly non negotiable on this issue in relation to Scotland, to prevent the scenario you mentioned ever becoming a possibility.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Spot on and yes, it does look as though Denmark will be the next to leave, there is very strong anti-EU sentiment there.
That's all very romantic........except they started to realise many of that surge of humanity were not actually fleeing any terrible war at all.............
Grendel
Well-Known Member
This is getting pretty stupid now.
I spoke to a couple of intelligent young voters - friends of one of my children the weekend after the vote. They asked if I was disappointed as they were and I said no as I am delighted.
At that point they looked at me with some disdain. I said I don't know anything about politics and I just vote the name I think looks a bit trendy and I don't even know the name of the prime minister. I don't think they believed me and then I asked them who your MEP is. Intelligent ones shake their head. Oh how about the head of the European Union. Dumb, blank looks. Oh so you would be like me if I didn't know my MP or head of the institution.
I asked if they were socialist. Of course. Oh ok so which party once had in its manifesto to get out of the EU. I did get an answer at that point - thatcher. I laughed and said thatcher was a classic europhile whose addiction to the union almost destroyed the country completely in the early 90's. Blank looks. I said actually it was a Labour Party that had a manifesto to leave the union when it was a real socialist organisation and was in all but name led by a certain euro hating chap called Lord Anthony Wedgewood Benn. Do you know who was his aide in those days. No answer - too intelligent. Oh someone called Jeremy Corbyn. Bit of uncomfortable shuffling. I was told to shut up at that point.
The concept younger people are more intelligent is nonsense. They have no experience and are impressionable - easily influenced by the total drivel that comes out of Westminster. The world will end, you have no future. They accept it and go with it. To say this is a sign of superiority is a joke.
The fact is the Westminster elite has alienated several areas of society. The older traditional conservative generation that feels badly let down by traditional conservatism and the on the other side swathes of people who see no hope, no future and no one prepared to stand up for them.
The political class has morphed into one. There are exceptions but ultimately the Westminster elite is a private educated self interested body that has no interest in many sections of society.
This isn't about immigration and the NHS - they are mere ingredients in the cause - this is about a revulsion at the elite who have abandoned people. It's two fingers up at the establishment. Jeremy Hunt and Tristram Hunt - supposed political opposites but just the same sneering elite. Cameron I am sure is just a Doctor Who incarnation of the ghastly Blair.
It shows how absurd these politicians are that they actually seemed to believe that they would win. They are so surrounded by the elite that they thought London represented the country. Other than London England voted out.
Tell me how can a person living in a council estate in toxteth be wrong and stupid if a dweller in the Goebbels or some sink estate in Belfast isn't? What I really wanted to ask the young intelligent ones was if we should perhaps have denied blacks the vote, or gays - I mean we are prepared to discriminate against the aged and the stupid so why not.
One other thing that really annoys me is the adulation given to the smug obnoxious Sturgeon. Her predecessor was a ludicrous chancer and similar to Farage - he could poke his pointy stick at the elite and laugh at them and then got his referendum and lost. Sturgeon has zero interest in her people - like the jester she replaced she has one mission - independence. Even if the country is bankrupted (as it surely will with crashed oil prices and no uk rebate) she will go for it. It's her endgame. I've even seen suggestions they should keep the pound. Given the experts she quotes suggest this will be worth less than the Zimbawbe dollar I'm not sure why that's an issue. She cares nothing about membership of the Euro but an obsessions she has had since her youth to extract the country from the uk.
The country has voted. A government was elected on a very clear mandate to give that vote and honour it's result. There is no argument. That is the democratic decision - any reversal would be an abandonment of civilised society and down the road of a banana republic.
Now politicians should start to take its electorate seriously and we should have a Labour Party that believes in wealth distribution and a Conservative party that believes in social development and enterprise. The Westminster elite is finished. Why would anyone not want that.
Even those two bozos that sat on my sofa should understand that - though I doubt it. One probably voted to stay in case we couldn't play in the euros anymore - that's ok though - he'd have voted remain so he's one of the establishment.
I spoke to a couple of intelligent young voters - friends of one of my children the weekend after the vote. They asked if I was disappointed as they were and I said no as I am delighted.
At that point they looked at me with some disdain. I said I don't know anything about politics and I just vote the name I think looks a bit trendy and I don't even know the name of the prime minister. I don't think they believed me and then I asked them who your MEP is. Intelligent ones shake their head. Oh how about the head of the European Union. Dumb, blank looks. Oh so you would be like me if I didn't know my MP or head of the institution.
I asked if they were socialist. Of course. Oh ok so which party once had in its manifesto to get out of the EU. I did get an answer at that point - thatcher. I laughed and said thatcher was a classic europhile whose addiction to the union almost destroyed the country completely in the early 90's. Blank looks. I said actually it was a Labour Party that had a manifesto to leave the union when it was a real socialist organisation and was in all but name led by a certain euro hating chap called Lord Anthony Wedgewood Benn. Do you know who was his aide in those days. No answer - too intelligent. Oh someone called Jeremy Corbyn. Bit of uncomfortable shuffling. I was told to shut up at that point.
The concept younger people are more intelligent is nonsense. They have no experience and are impressionable - easily influenced by the total drivel that comes out of Westminster. The world will end, you have no future. They accept it and go with it. To say this is a sign of superiority is a joke.
The fact is the Westminster elite has alienated several areas of society. The older traditional conservative generation that feels badly let down by traditional conservatism and the on the other side swathes of people who see no hope, no future and no one prepared to stand up for them.
The political class has morphed into one. There are exceptions but ultimately the Westminster elite is a private educated self interested body that has no interest in many sections of society.
This isn't about immigration and the NHS - they are mere ingredients in the cause - this is about a revulsion at the elite who have abandoned people. It's two fingers up at the establishment. Jeremy Hunt and Tristram Hunt - supposed political opposites but just the same sneering elite. Cameron I am sure is just a Doctor Who incarnation of the ghastly Blair.
It shows how absurd these politicians are that they actually seemed to believe that they would win. They are so surrounded by the elite that they thought London represented the country. Other than London England voted out.
Tell me how can a person living in a council estate in toxteth be wrong and stupid if a dweller in the Goebbels or some sink estate in Belfast isn't? What I really wanted to ask the young intelligent ones was if we should perhaps have denied blacks the vote, or gays - I mean we are prepared to discriminate against the aged and the stupid so why not.
One other thing that really annoys me is the adulation given to the smug obnoxious Sturgeon. Her predecessor was a ludicrous chancer and similar to Farage - he could poke his pointy stick at the elite and laugh at them and then got his referendum and lost. Sturgeon has zero interest in her people - like the jester she replaced she has one mission - independence. Even if the country is bankrupted (as it surely will with crashed oil prices and no uk rebate) she will go for it. It's her endgame. I've even seen suggestions they should keep the pound. Given the experts she quotes suggest this will be worth less than the Zimbawbe dollar I'm not sure why that's an issue. She cares nothing about membership of the Euro but an obsessions she has had since her youth to extract the country from the uk.
The country has voted. A government was elected on a very clear mandate to give that vote and honour it's result. There is no argument. That is the democratic decision - any reversal would be an abandonment of civilised society and down the road of a banana republic.
Now politicians should start to take its electorate seriously and we should have a Labour Party that believes in wealth distribution and a Conservative party that believes in social development and enterprise. The Westminster elite is finished. Why would anyone not want that.
Even those two bozos that sat on my sofa should understand that - though I doubt it. One probably voted to stay in case we couldn't play in the euros anymore - that's ok though - he'd have voted remain so he's one of the establishment.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You'd be surprised with Northern Ireland, at the moment it seems to be unifying the political divide rather than fractioning it. The Northern Ireland economy is largely based on trade with the south especially in the border counties. Northern Ireland can't afford a complete split from the EU and lose freedom of movement. My family is from a border town and most of them work in the south. Unemployment could go up massively in Northern Ireland if that right is lost and actually that would be the biggest threat to the piece process. Terrorism thrived in a time of high unemployment, low wages and poor living standards in Northern Ireland because they had a lot of young men who were lost with no sense of worth and that made them easy to manipulate in an environment that bred hatred.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
Apologies, I was intending to support you. On social media all the bitter remainers have been claiming that there are 17 million bigoted racists that voted. And yet I don't know a single racist and apart from Mart's (now hackneyed) accusation not one person on here has mentioned voting leave because they don't like foreigners.
Terry Gibson's perm
Well-Known Member
A big problem we have in politics is career politicians who leave university and just seem to pick a party they can progress in rather than the one that they are suited to and have no career/life experience.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
Tony, you are still thinking in binary. Controlling immigration doesn't mean no immigration. Lack of a free trade agreement doesn't mean no trade. Leaving the EU doesn't mean that companies in Eire are going to sack your family - why would they?
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Like this (expletive deleted), Kevin Foster used to be a Coventry Councillor now Torbay MP and steadily climbing the greasy pole, is now 37.
Became full time politician at 26, before that some work for an MEP & as a 'paralegal' whatever that is (trainee solicitor?) and some holiday jobs.
I reckon that is about 3 years work outside politics & I'm not sure I count the law as the 'real world'.
Oh look, near the front, near the front!
