The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (44 Viewers)

[martcov]

This is getting pretty stupid now.

I spoke to a couple of intelligent young voters - friends of one of my children the weekend after the vote. They asked if I was disappointed as they were and I said no as I am delighted.

At that point they looked at me with some disdain. I said I don't know anything about politics and I just vote the name I think looks a bit trendy and I don't even know the name of the prime minister. I don't think they believed me and then I asked them who your MEP is. Intelligent ones shake their head. Oh how about the head of the European Union. Dumb, blank looks. Oh so you would be like me if I didn't know my MP or head of the institution.

I asked if they were socialist. Of course. Oh ok so which party once had in its manifesto to get out of the EU. I did get an answer at that point - thatcher. I laughed and said thatcher was a classic europhile whose addiction to the union almost destroyed the country completely in the early 90's. Blank looks. I said actually it was a Labour Party that had a manifesto to leave the union when it was a real socialist organisation and was in all but name led by a certain euro hating chap called Lord Anthony Wedgewood Benn. Do you know who was his aide in those days. No answer - too intelligent. Oh someone called Jeremy Corbyn. Bit of uncomfortable shuffling. I was told to shut up at that point.

The concept younger people are more intelligent is nonsense. They have no experience and are impressionable - easily influenced by the total drivel that comes out of Westminster. The world will end, you have no future. They accept it and go with it. To say this is a sign of superiority is a joke.

The fact is the Westminster elite has alienated several areas of society. The older traditional conservative generation that feels badly let down by traditional conservatism and the on the other side swathes of people who see no hope, no future and no one prepared to stand up for them.

The political class has morphed into one. There are exceptions but ultimately the Westminster elite is a private educated self interested body that has no interest in many sections of society.

This isn't about immigration and the NHS - they are mere ingredients in the cause - this is about a revulsion at the elite who have abandoned people. It's two fingers up at the establishment. Jeremy Hunt and Tristram Hunt - supposed political opposites but just the same sneering elite. Cameron I am sure is just a Doctor Who incarnation of the ghastly Blair.

It shows how absurd these politicians are that they actually seemed to believe that they would win. They are so surrounded by the elite that they thought London represented the country. Other than London England voted out.

Tell me how can a person living in a council estate in toxteth be wrong and stupid if a dweller in the Goebbels or some sink estate in Belfast isn't? What I really wanted to ask the young intelligent ones was if we should perhaps have denied blacks the vote, or gays - I mean we are prepared to discriminate against the aged and the stupid so why not.

One other thing that really annoys me is the adulation given to the smug obnoxious Sturgeon. Her predecessor was a ludicrous chancer and similar to Farage - he could poke his pointy stick at the elite and laugh at them and then got his referendum and lost. Sturgeon has zero interest in her people - like the jester she replaced she has one mission - independence. Even if the country is bankrupted (as it surely will with crashed oil prices and no uk rebate) she will go for it. It's her endgame. I've even seen suggestions they should keep the pound. Given the experts she quotes suggest this will be worth less than the Zimbawbe dollar I'm not sure why that's an issue. She cares nothing about membership of the Euro but an obsessions she has had since her youth to extract the country from the uk.

The country has voted. A government was elected on a very clear mandate to give that vote and honour it's result. There is no argument. That is the democratic decision - any reversal would be an abandonment of civilised society and down the road of a banana republic.

Now politicians should start to take its electorate seriously and we should have a Labour Party that believes in wealth distribution and a Conservative party that believes in social development and enterprise. The Westminster elite is finished. Why would anyone not want that.

Even those two bozos that sat on my sofa should understand that - though I doubt it. One probably voted to stay in case we couldn't play in the euros anymore - that's ok though - he'd have voted remain so he's one of the establishment.

Farage comes across as one of the elite who becomes one of 'us' by being seen drinking a pint in a pub. Isn't Dulwich School a school for the elite? Have you read the letter referring to the decision to make him a prefect in the 70s? Are the citizens of Toxteth better off now ( or have they a brighter future ) than before Brexit? A resounding remain vote would have confirmed the Status quo and capital would have flowed in. The pound, shares, investment and jobs would have been stable or have improved. Now we are without a government, an opposition and a Game Plan. It may of course work, but we will go through pain - just a question of how much pain.

Rupert Murdoch cannot contain his glee. He got the result he wanted.

 

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[skybluetony176]

Tony, you are still thinking in binary. Controlling immigration doesn't mean no immigration. Lack of a free trade agreement doesn't mean no trade. Leaving the EU doesn't mean that companies in Eire are going to sack your family - why would they?

I never said it would. It could however make it difficult and at this moment in time no one knows how difficult and that worries the people that it effects. Both sides of the border.

Personally I think they'll be no change. The levels of access companies especially banks need to the common market means we'll have to accept free movement of people with the EU. Boris won't confirm this of course until he's sat in number 10 having won the Tory leadership contest and the snap general election. He'll then be about as popular with those who voted out based on immigration as Nick Clegg was with university students after getting into power.

 

[mrtrench]

Farage comes across as one of the elite who becomes one of 'us' by being seen drinking a pint in a pub. Isn't Dulwich School a school for the elite? Have you read the letter referring to the decision to make him a prefect in the 70s? Are the citizens of Toxteth better off now ( or have they a brighter future ) than before Brexit? A resounding remain vote would have confirmed the Status quo and capital would have flowed in. The pound, shares, investment and jobs would have been stable or have improved. Now we are without a government, an opposition and a Game Plan. It may of course work, but we will go through pain - just a question of how much pain.

Rupert Murdoch cannot contain his glee. He got the result he wanted.

In my opinion it's pain either way - the choice is between some pain and risk now or the long drawn out pain of remaining until the EU implodes.

 

[Grendel]

Farage comes across as one of the elite who becomes one of 'us' by being seen drinking a pint in a pub. Isn't Dulwich School a school for the elite? Have you read the letter referring to the decision to make him a prefect in the 70s? Are the citizens of Toxteth better off now ( or have they a brighter future ) than before Brexit? A resounding remain vote would have confirmed the Status quo and capital would have flowed in. The pound, shares, investment and jobs would have been stable or have improved. Now we are without a government, an opposition and a Game Plan. It may of course work, but we will go through pain - just a question of how much pain.

Rupert Murdoch cannot contain his glee. He got the result he wanted.

So the person from Toxteth is stupid and cannot be allowed a say but the poverty stricken person from the gorbells can.

Answer me this. In England how many regions voted to remain. No waffle no rhetoric - how many.

 

[martcov]

In my opinion it's pain either way - the choice is between some pain and risk now or the long drawn out pain of remaining until the EU implodes.

If it pans out as you think.... The EU may not implode and our pain could last a very long time.

 

[martcov]

So the person from Toxteth is stupid and cannot be allowed a say but the poverty stricken person from the gorbells can.

Answer me this. In England how many regions voted to remain. No waffle no rhetoric - how many.

I asked you whether the person from Toxteth will be better off. You're the one saying he is stupid. The man in the Gorbals may see Europe differently because the Tory anti Europeans in Scotland are in the minority and their Brussels bashing hasn't hit home there.

London and the South East - why do you want to know? Why don't you just answer the question?

 

[Grendel]

I asked you whether the person from Toxteth will be better off. You're the one saying he is stupid. The man in the Gorbals may see Europe differently because the Tory anti Europeans in Scotland are in the minority and their Brussels bashing hasn't hit home there.

London and the South East - why do you want to know? Why don't you just answer the question?

I have. I believe in free speech and the democratic right to form an opinion. I have no idea if someone from toxteth will be better off. I wouldn't be so superior to assume either way and with respect nor do you. I would say if this decision sends a bomb up Westminster then yes they will. Living in a poverty stricken environment with deprevation the elite will never witness I somehow suspect being a part of Junke and his I democratic oligarch will make little difference. Please also don't pretend Europe, Westminster or anyone else cares less either way

Oddly you don't seem very bothered if a person on a Glasgow council estate would be better off - is say without England a resounding no but it's an opinion. It is interfering though there seems a desire to keep the sterling. That is stupid do we need to say no for the sake of the scots. Remember the pound is now as valuable as the Zimbabwe dollar.

So regarding your Rupert Murdoch remark you view England (other than London and the South East) as total imbeciles who cannot form an opinion unless they read the Sun? Is that seriously your opinion? You said it.

 

[skybluetony176]

So the person from Toxteth is stupid and cannot be allowed a say but the poverty stricken person from the gorbells can.

Answer me this. In England how many regions voted to remain. No waffle no rhetoric - how many.

None. It was one man one vote.

 

[mrtrench]

If it pans out as you think.... The EU may not implode and our pain could last a very long time.

Well isn't that how many voted: "on the balance of probability which is the better path?" You are right; I think that the EU will fail long before it becomes The United States of Europe - and this is why: I think that you cannot control the huge variety of local economies with a single currency. You either have high interest rates and a strong currency to avoid a bubble in Germany or you have low interest rates & a weak currency to encourage growth in Portugal. Either way one side of Europe loses out until (if ever?) the wealth really is equally distributed. Pick something in the middle and they both suffer. IMO Free Movement makes convergence less likely - people will just migrate from the weaker areas for work - leaving them even weaker and thus a vicious circle. However FM is also an essential to mitigate the immediate and present pain of a single currency. I'd rather they abandoned the experiment and gave every country their freedom to manage their own economies.

We'll never know who is right, because events will overtake us now we have a UK decision and that will change the future. We were asked what we thought was best and I chose - I have no bad feelings towards anyone who chose differently - it was a difficult decision and I thought about it for weeks before deciding (and even then I had doubts). I do not like being called a bigot on the basis of that decision - all this name-calling on social media just emphasises to me just how dumb many remain voters were (and I'm sure there are many dumb leave voters too).

 

[Grendel]

None. It was one man one vote.

It was split into regions. The result shows regions, how many on the map said leave?

 

[lewys33]

This is getting pretty stupid now.

I spoke to a couple of intelligent young voters - friends of one of my children the weekend after the vote. They asked if I was disappointed as they were and I said no as I am delighted.

At that point they looked at me with some disdain. I said I don't know anything about politics and I just vote the name I think looks a bit trendy and I don't even know the name of the prime minister. I don't think they believed me and then I asked them who your MEP is. Intelligent ones shake their head. Oh how about the head of the European Union. Dumb, blank looks. Oh so you would be like me if I didn't know my MP or head of the institution.

I asked if they were socialist. Of course. Oh ok so which party once had in its manifesto to get out of the EU. I did get an answer at that point - thatcher. I laughed and said thatcher was a classic europhile whose addiction to the union almost destroyed the country completely in the early 90's. Blank looks. I said actually it was a Labour Party that had a manifesto to leave the union when it was a real socialist organisation and was in all but name led by a certain euro hating chap called Lord Anthony Wedgewood Benn. Do you know who was his aide in those days. No answer - too intelligent. Oh someone called Jeremy Corbyn. Bit of uncomfortable shuffling. I was told to shut up at that point.

The concept younger people are more intelligent is nonsense. They have no experience and are impressionable - easily influenced by the total drivel that comes out of Westminster. The world will end, you have no future. They accept it and go with it. To say this is a sign of superiority is a joke.

The fact is the Westminster elite has alienated several areas of society. The older traditional conservative generation that feels badly let down by traditional conservatism and the on the other side swathes of people who see no hope, no future and no one prepared to stand up for them.

The political class has morphed into one. There are exceptions but ultimately the Westminster elite is a private educated self interested body that has no interest in many sections of society.

This isn't about immigration and the NHS - they are mere ingredients in the cause - this is about a revulsion at the elite who have abandoned people. It's two fingers up at the establishment. Jeremy Hunt and Tristram Hunt - supposed political opposites but just the same sneering elite. Cameron I am sure is just a Doctor Who incarnation of the ghastly Blair.

It shows how absurd these politicians are that they actually seemed to believe that they would win. They are so surrounded by the elite that they thought London represented the country. Other than London England voted out.

Tell me how can a person living in a council estate in toxteth be wrong and stupid if a dweller in the Goebbels or some sink estate in Belfast isn't? What I really wanted to ask the young intelligent ones was if we should perhaps have denied blacks the vote, or gays - I mean we are prepared to discriminate against the aged and the stupid so why not.

One other thing that really annoys me is the adulation given to the smug obnoxious Sturgeon. Her predecessor was a ludicrous chancer and similar to Farage - he could poke his pointy stick at the elite and laugh at them and then got his referendum and lost. Sturgeon has zero interest in her people - like the jester she replaced she has one mission - independence. Even if the country is bankrupted (as it surely will with crashed oil prices and no uk rebate) she will go for it. It's her endgame. I've even seen suggestions they should keep the pound. Given the experts she quotes suggest this will be worth less than the Zimbawbe dollar I'm not sure why that's an issue. She cares nothing about membership of the Euro but an obsessions she has had since her youth to extract the country from the uk.

The country has voted. A government was elected on a very clear mandate to give that vote and honour it's result. There is no argument. That is the democratic decision - any reversal would be an abandonment of civilised society and down the road of a banana republic.

Now politicians should start to take its electorate seriously and we should have a Labour Party that believes in wealth distribution and a Conservative party that believes in social development and enterprise. The Westminster elite is finished. Why would anyone not want that.

Even those two bozos that sat on my sofa should understand that - though I doubt it. One probably voted to stay in case we couldn't play in the euros anymore - that's ok though - he'd have voted remain so he's one of the establishment.

That had nothing to do with impressionable, less intelligent youngsters. It was all about your ego and trying to prove you knew more than they did. Classic Grendel. Shame on you.

 

[martcov]

I have. I believe in free speech and the democratic right to form an opinion. I have no idea if someone from toxteth will be better off. I wouldn't be so superior to assume either way and with respect nor do you. I would say if this decision sends a bomb up Westminster then yes they will. Living in a poverty stricken environment with deprevation the elite will never witness I somehow suspect being a part of Junke and his I democratic oligarch will make little difference. Please also don't pretend Europe, Westminster or anyone else cares less either way

Oddly you don't seem very bothered if a person on a Glasgow council estate would be better off - is say without England a resounding no but it's an opinion. It is interfering though there seems a desire to keep the sterling. That is stupid do we need to say no for the sake of the scots. Remember the pound is now as valuable as the Zimbabwe dollar.

So regarding your Rupert Murdoch remark you view England (other than London and the South East) as total imbeciles who cannot form an opinion unless they read the Sun? Is that seriously your opinion? You said it.

You are now telling me my opinion. I chose to ask about Toxteth seeing as it was a leave vote and they won overall. Murdoch's crap papers do influence opinion - one reason he has them. Yes he is pleased. People are influenced by the media and it doesn't mean they are imbeciles and cannot form an opinion. It does mean their opinions can be influenced if they are only given certain facts. If that were not true, then we would not have spin doctors or advertisers.

 

[skybluetony176]

It was split into regions. The result shows regions, how many on the map said leave?

No it wasn't. It was counted in regions but it was one man one vote. Only the total number of votes counted not the the number of regions.

 

[Grendel]

That had nothing to do with impressionable, less intelligent youngsters. It was all about your ego and trying to prove you knew more than they did. Classic Grendel. Shame on you.

But not shame in those who accuse voters of being racist or unintelligent. Of course not.

 

[martcov]

Well isn't that how many voted: "on the balance of probability which is the better path?" You are right; I think that the EU will fail long before it becomes The United States of Europe - and this is why: I think that you cannot control the huge variety of local economies with a single currency. You either have high interest rates and a strong currency to avoid a bubble in Germany or you have low interest rates & a weak currency to encourage growth in Portugal. Either way one side of Europe loses out until (if ever?) the wealth really is equally distributed. Pick something in the middle and they both suffer. IMO Free Movement makes convergence less likely - people will just migrate from the weaker areas for work - leaving them even weaker and thus a vicious circle. However FM is also an essential to mitigate the immediate and present pain of a single currency. I'd rather they abandoned the experiment and gave every country their freedom to manage their own economies.

We'll never know who is right, because events will overtake us now we have a UK decision and that will change the future. We were asked what we thought was best and I chose - I have no bad feelings towards anyone who chose differently - it was a difficult decision and I thought about it for weeks before deciding (and even then I had doubts). I do not like being called a bigot on the basis of that decision - all this name-calling on social media just emphasises to me just how dumb many remain voters were (and I'm sure there are many dumb leave voters too).

Who has called you a bigot?

 

[Grendel]

No it wasn't. It was counted in regions but it was one man one vote. Only the total number of votes counted not the the number of regions.

So Martcov when he states only London and the South East voted remain is talking out of his arse then?

 

[lewys33]

But not shame in those who accuse voters of being racist or unintelligent. Of course not.

Generalisation. A good way to fight generalisation.

 

[mrtrench]

Who has called you a bigot?

Not you I've quit Facebook for the time being because so many of my friends were claiming that out voters were stupid and racist; signing petitions to have the referendum results annulled (I'm aware of the irony that it was a leaver that set that up) and so on and so on... One old friend even claimed that Britain would now regress to 70s skinheads and the NF.

 

[skybluetony176]

So Martcov when he states only London and the South East voted remain is talking out of his arse then?

The result was recorded by the person not the region.

 

[mrtrench]

The result was recorded by the person not the region.

Are you Sturgeon's Mum? Is she a very naughty girl?

 

[mrtrench]

BTW, I must say, I was reading the thread on the Labour Party the other day and I thought what an intelligent and tolerant debate it was. Far better than the tosh I've seen on my FB page - many of which emanated from supposedly intelligent grammar school alumni and almost universally graduates..

 

[martcov]

Not you I've quit Facebook for the time being because so many of my friends were claiming that out voters were stupid and racist; signing petitions to have the referendum results annulled (I'm aware of the irony that it was a leaver that set that up) and so on and so on... One old friend even claimed that Britain would now regress to 70s skinheads and the NF.

I think that a significant protest vote, but overall remain would have been better. I also think that the migration capping and the 350m a month to the NHS decided it for many voters. They were conned as it seems that there is backtracking on both counts. It doesn't mean they were racists, bigots or imbeciles. It does mean the better bullshit won and that is unfortunate. The comments in the letter from Dulwich school referring to NF, Fascist tendencies of the young Farage, may be behind suspicions that there is some truth in the belief that such views could be coming out again.

 

[mrtrench]

I think Farage is toast now. Vote Remain and if anything it's more likely.

 

[martcov]

I think Farage is toast now. Vote Remain and if anything it's more likely.

Yes, it seems he won't be allowed near the negotiations and as to his behaviour in the EU parliament when he claimed that they had never had proper jobs - that was a blatant populist lie. Some MEPs maybe, but most have had had outside work/ business experience. He is a one horse populist. He has served his purpose and will be probably freezed out imo.

 

[Ashdown]

Is that the same 'populist' people you were claiming earlier shouldn't have had the vote you daft prick !?

 

[Astute]

The result was recorded by the person not the region.

Sturgeon wants another referendum as Scotland voted to remain. Yet you say it wasn't recorded by regions?

 

[martcov]

Is that the same 'populist' people you were claiming earlier shouldn't have had the vote you daft prick !?

What are you on? Farage is a populist. Look it up in a dictionary. I said we shouldn't have had a referendum as referenda are easier to swing - by populists such as Farage - than whole parliaments. We elect the parliament and this referendum is not binding on Parliament. Parliament has to endorse it in the end - it has to be voted on. It would have been better to let parliament decide and keep Murdoch, Farage and the BS on immigration and 350 m NHS out of it. Even Farage now - after you voted leave - has admitted he could never make the 350m assertion as he has no control over spending. It was on the UKIP propaganda though, so he did use BS. Farage proved to be a liar again. Take that up with him please. Not me.

 

[martcov]

Sturgeon wants another referendum as Scotland voted to remain. Yet you say it wasn't recorded by regions?

Yes, because the result wasn't based on regional decisions. It was recorded by region though. If the regional results had counted then Scotland would still be in Europe in all probability ( after England had left ).

 

[Astute]

What are you on? Farage is a populist. Look it up in a dictionary. I said we shouldn't have had a referendum as referenda are easier to swing - by populists such as Farage - than whole parliaments. We elect the parliament and this referendum is not binding on Parliament. Parliament has to endorse it in the end - it has to be voted on. It would have been better to let parliament decide and keep Murdoch, Farage and the BS on immigration and 350 m NHS out of it. Even Farage now - after you voted leave - has admitted he could never make the 350m assertion as he has no control over spending. It was on the UKIP propaganda though, so he did use BS. Farage proved to be a liar again. Take that up with him please. Not me.

I know quite a lot of people who voted leave. But not one person voted because of what Farage said.

I don't even think many people voted on what was said by those that they sided with. The bullshit was clear to see on both sides.

 

[martcov]

Sturgeon wants another referendum as Scotland voted to remain. Yet you say it wasn't recorded by regions?

Well, that is a personal anecdote. Others may well have believed the BS. We will never know how many, but if it was only a million out of 17 million, that was enough to swing it. They certainly wrote it big letters on a bright red double decker bus and travelled all over with it. They obviously thought it would be a believable slogan otherwise why go to that trouble? Reply to post before..

 

[Astute]

The result was recorded by the person not the region.

Lets try again.

All regions were recorded. That is how we know that most of England voted out as in areas. If it was like in the general election the result would have been a landslide on the side of leave.

 

[martcov]

Lets try again.

All regions were recorded. That is how we know that most of England voted out as in areas. If it was like in the general election the result would have been a landslide on the side of leave.

Yes, because we don't have proportional representation on general elections - not very democratic.

 

[Astute]

Well, that is a personal anecdote. Others may well have believed the BS. We will never know how many, but if it was only a million out of 17 million, that was enough to swing it. They certainly wrote it big letters on a bright red double decker bus and travelled all over with it. They obviously thought it would be a believable slogan otherwise why go to that trouble? Reply to post before..

How about where Cameron said that they had come to an agreement on making changes in our favour. But all that had happened is that they had agreed to have talks on if anything could change. And this was confirmed by the EU. So how many voted remain because of this? A million would have made the numbers seem a lot more in favour of leaving.

 

[martcov]

How about where Cameron said that they had come to an agreement on making changes in our favour. But all that had happened is that they had agreed to have talks on if anything could change. And this was confirmed by the EU. So how many voted remain because of this? A million would have made the numbers seem a lot more in favour of leaving.

The difference being that the failure of Cameron's negotiations was known befor the vote. The backtracking on leave promises only started after they had won.

 

[Astute]

Yes, because we don't have proportional representation on general elections - not very democratic.

Not always a bad thing.

If we did those like Farage would get a lot more voted in. And the BNP would have a voice in parliament.