The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (18 Viewers)

[Grendel]

In this case it is not a Godwin as the last Referenda here were indeed held by Hitler and his propaganda press manipulated the voters. AfD want a German Referendum over Dexit. The modern comparison - also with our results is in this Referendum which is a Game changer - is relevant. Murdoch's press did the same as the German Nazi press in this referendum and Murdoch got his desired result. He now prefers Grove to Johnson. Nuff said.

If you really believe this tripe then you are deranged and beyond argument.

The only person whose swallowed any press nonsense is you and the euro bias that exists in the German media

You can't really be serious.

 

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[martcov]

If you really believe this tripe then you are deranged and beyond argument.

The only person whose swallowed any press nonsense is you and the euro bias that exists in the German media

You can't really be serious.

Yes, I learned about modern history and the danger of Referenda ( e.g. Those called by the Nazis ), the German Constitution doesn't allow them for historical reasons. 14% would vote AfD. The Murdoch press wanted out and influenced their readers. Murdoch Said his papers would support Gove. Gove is standing instead of Boris. Not tripe just facts. You must be deranged to deny the facts.

 

[Grendel]

Yes, I learned about modern history and the danger of Referenda ( e.g. Those called by the Nazis ), the German Constitution doesn't allow them for historical reasons. 14% would vote AfD. The Murdoch press wanted out and influenced their readers. Murdoch Said his papers would support Gove. Gove is standing instead of Boris. Not tripe just facts. You must be deranged to deny the facts.

So you opposed the first Scottish referendum and you would certainly oppose a second referendum for Scotland?

Gove or Johnson by the way haven't a hold in hell of ever being PM and never had.

You know why Johnson wasn't standing and was forced not to by Gove I assume?

Also why your hitler nonsense is tripe is because in this case the person who made the referendum didn't actually win did he?

 

[martcov]

So you opposed the first Scottish referendum and you would certainly oppose a second referendum for Scotland?

Gove or Johnson by the way haven't a hold in hell of ever being PM and never had.

You know why Johnson wasn't standing and was forced not to by Gove I assume?

Also why your hitler nonsense is tripe is because in this case the person who made the referendum didn't actually win did he?

I don't like Referenda for such fundamental decisions - but, if we are playing that game, then how about 1 for NI and Scotland in the light of the UK one?

In this case Cameron didn't control the media. He underestimated the leave campaign's resources. Murdoch did control a large Part of the Media. Murdoch can be happy his side won on votes cast - not a majority of eligible voters. Goebbels had full control of the media and got better results - which sort of proves my point.

Boris is not standing because Murdoch won't back him ( whether by Choice or Gove's Plot - the reasoning is the Same ). Murdoch has said he will back Gove as he is more Murdoch's line. Without backing Boris has no chance at an election and he knows it. Gove says he didn't want to be PM as he has no Charisma. True. We are firmly under the control of an elite.

 

[Grendel]

I don't like Referenda for such fundamental decisions - but, if we are playing that game, then how about 1 for NI and Scotland in the light of the UK one?

In this case Cameron didn't control the media. He underestimated the leave campaign's resources. Murdoch did control a large Part of the Media. Murdoch can be happy his side won on votes cast - not a majority of eligible voters. Goebbels had full control of the media and got better results - which sort of proves my point.

Boris is not standing because Murdoch won't back him ( whether by Choice or Gove's Plot - the reasoning is the Same ). Murdoch has said he will back Gove as he is more Murdoch's line. Without backing Boris has no chance at an election and he knows it. Gove says he didn't want to be PM as he has no Charisma. True. We are firmly under the control of an elite.

Johnson isn't standing because he stupidly failed in a commitment he made to offer a certain person a high profile position in the cabinet.

You are not well informed - the percentage of influence in the press Murdoch now has is small and the news media on sky was anything but in favour of brexit.

 

[martcov]

Johnson isn't standing because he stupidly failed in a commitment he made to offer a certain person a high profile position in the cabinet.

You are not well informed - the percentage of influence in the press Murdoch now has is small and the news media on sky was anything but in favour of brexit.

What outcome did Murdoch want?

 

[Grendel]

What outcome did Murdoch want?

Oh Rupert Murdoch wants Gove to be PM

So I've answered your question, now answer mine - why didn't Johnson stand - you know I assume!?

Why do you avoid answering a question I keep posing. You don't know do you lol.

 

[martcov]

Oh Rupert Murdoch wants Gove to be PM

So I've answered your question, now answer mine - why didn't Johnson stand - you know I assume!?

Why do you avoid answering a question I keep posing. You don't know do you lol.

Oh Rupert Murdoch wants Gove to be PM

So I've answered your question, now answer mine - why didn't Johnson stand - you know I assume!?

Why do you avoid answering a question I keep posing. You don't know do you lol.

I haven't spoken to Boris or Gove and I am watching Germany Italy... My last info was about Murdoch. If you know otherwise, pray tell..

 

[Grendel]

I haven't spoken to Boris or Gove and I am watching Germany Italy... My last info was about Murdoch. If you know otherwise, pray tell..

Common knowledge in the in the uk press try reading the Gaurdian.

You are aware Gove hasn't a hope in hell of winning the nomination.

Your belief that Murdoch influences conservative politicians, then the party members and ultimately the electorate is bizarre.

The only real hope for a Brexit leader of the party was Johnson. Gove is likely to throw the towel in - he has 16 supporters to date - aren't you aware of this?

 

[dutchman]

The only real hope for a Brexit leader of the party was Johnson.

Andrea Leadsom was a Brexit campaigner and is gaining in popularity.

 

[martcov]

Common knowledge in the in the uk press try reading the Gaurdian.

You are aware Gove hasn't a hope in hell of winning the nomination.

Your belief that Murdoch influences conservative politicians, then the party members and ultimately the electorate is bizarre.

The only real hope for a Brexit leader of the party was Johnson. Gove is likely to throw the towel in - he has 16 supporters to date - aren't you aware of this?

Murdoch is an influential figure. Are you denying that? I hope Gove throws the towel in. We need an election. Boris is gone whoever's conspiracy theory is correct. This is too complicated for a straight in or out. It was not even a huge majority vote of voters and was a minority of eligble voters. Parliament has to decide this one.

Sigmar Gabriel, Vice chancellor, has suggested German citizenship for young brits - dual citizenship. As I said, I will be taking German citizenship as dual citizenship.

I am actually surprised at you being in the populist camp. Some of the others are looking forward to a bright future with a few minor adjustments.

Property prices are rising in Frankfurt. Hollande wants to make Paris a Finance capital and Dublin sees itself as an English speaking alternative to London as a finance centre.

No-one can say what will happen, but if we lose London as a financial centre we're fucked. German could become the main language of the EU without us.

This is not 'us' claiming control - we never had it. No-one gives a fuck about us - except at election time. It is the British elite regaining control - public schoolboys every one of them.

 

[Astute]

Sorry don't get the logic. The leavers want to leave, have been making up lies about nhs and immigration,

Did you follow the debates?

It was the remain side that lied about immigration. And it was Farage that said he would put some of the money into the NHS that it costs us to be in the EU. Thankfully he will never be in a position to decide what money goes where.

 

[Astute]

I do not think these right wing view are new and just come out with the so-called "refugee crisis" (wonder what would have happened, if it never had been called that way...) - people are just brave enough to show them again...
Right wing crimes numbers exploding in Germany...
Just a question of time until people have to die. Really scary.

And this is the major problem that if you bring up some idiot calls you racist.

The EU is supposed to be a place without borders. There is no way of checking someone's criminal past. Terrorists and undesirables get free movement. We are lucky in the UK as we have our own border controls. But we still need to have a reason to stop someone coming in.

 

[Astute]

Martcov, I think the point was more that the far right is emerging all across the eu and that's due to the eu. Failed polices and increased tension over the migrant crisis is giving these types of people a platform.

Le pen in France is doing very well and this guy in Austria who lost by a whisker. That movement in Italy i forget its name now. Greece obviously have many forms now. These guys shouldn't be anywhere near politics or winning but they are.

I'm not gloating at all. It's worrying but Ask yourself why?

Ask Mart about the populist parties and vote in Germany. If you only listened to him you wouldn't know it existed. And they will only grow with the problems they are having with some of the immigrants.

 

[martcov]

Ask Mart about the populist parties and vote in Germany. If you only listened to him you wouldn't know it existed. And they will only grow with the problems they are having with some of the immigrants.

I said AfD would get 14% in an election. In the East more than that - in Mecklenburg Vorpommern state election they expect 19%. I have said that AfD want a national Referendum on EU membership, but that they won't get one as Germany doesn't allow them because of historical reasons ( Hitler used Referenda to jusitfy his Realpolitik ). Referenda can be manipulated by false propaganda.

 

[martcov]

And this is the major problem that if you bring up some idiot calls you racist.

The EU is supposed to be a place without borders. There is no way of checking someone's criminal past. Terrorists and undesirables get free movement. We are lucky in the UK as we have our own border controls. But we still need to have a reason to stop someone coming in.

It is true that living on an island makes it easier to control borders. Being on the continent it is very hard to control borders unless you build an iron curtain - no-one wants that. Are you saying there are no terrorists in the UK? How would France have controlled the fan movement in the EM? 100000 Belgians came to Liile for the Wales game alone.

 

[martcov]

Did you follow the debates?

It was the remain side that lied about immigration. And it was Farage that said he would put some of the money into the NHS that it costs us to be in the EU. Thankfully he will never be in a position to decide what money goes where.

Really? Are you saying that leave didn't scaremonger on immigration and that only Farage mentioned giving 350 m to the NHS? There are fact checks on the internet ( e.g. BBC ), this story doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Astute]

I said AfD would get 14% in an election. In the East more than that - in Mecklenburg Vorpommern state election they expect 19%. I have said that AfD want a national Referendum on EU membership, but that they won't get one as Germany doesn't allow them because of historical reasons ( Hitler used Referenda to jusitfy his Realpolitik ). Referenda can be manipulated by false propaganda.

So about 1 in 7 people allowed to vote in Germany is a racist?

 

[Astute]

It is true that living on an island makes it easier to control borders. Being on the continent it is very hard to control borders unless you build an iron curtain - no-one wants that. Are you saying there are no terrorists in the UK? How would France have controlled the fan movement in the EM? 100000 Belgians came to Liile for the Wales game alone.

Of course there are terrorists in the UK. But not having open borders helps to contain it. Not wanting open borders doesn't make you racist.

 

[Astute]

Really? Are you saying that leave didn't scaremonger on immigration and that only Farage mentioned giving 350 m to the NHS? There are fact checks on the internet ( e.g. BBC ), this story doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

You like to put your point across whilst ignoring what others say don't you. I have said countless times that both sides were untruthful. But many of those crying about the leave vote continually only mention the leave untruths.

 

[martcov]

So about 1 in 7 people allowed to vote in Germany is a racist?

Are you Grendel? I said AfD would get 14%. A lot of their members are probably racists. Boateng is black and the quote by a leading AfD politician was that, although he is a good footballer people wouldn't want him as a neighbour. Sort of confirms racism in the AfD. How many are racist in the AfD? I suspect many as they are strongest in the areas where the most racist attacks take place. I do not know how many Germans are racist as there are no statistics ( as far as I know ).

 

[martcov]

You like to put your point across whilst ignoring what others say don't you. I have said countless times that both sides were untruthful. But many of those crying about the leave vote continually only mention the leave untruths.

I was answering your point, but I agree there was no monopoly on bullshit. Leave got their bullshit over better because their campaign was led by charasmatic populists. People are crying because this theatre boiled down to a propaganda contest and we are entering a voluntary recession and UK existence crisis on the basis of lies ( yes, from both sides, but that doesn't alter our predicament ). Should never have happened.

 

[Sick Boy]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/02/brexit-triggers-racism-climate-of-fear

It seems that the abuse my partner got for speaking Italian on the phone wasn't an isolated incident. I will be making a point of us speaking Italian very loudly in public from now on. I really hope someone says something

 

[martcov]

Of course there are terrorists in the UK. But not having open borders helps to contain it. Not wanting open borders doesn't make you racist.

You keep on about being called a racist, why? I have never said you were. I don't doubt that racists voted for the side that promised to control the flow of foreigners coming in. That doesn't mean that 17m leave voters are racists, altough some are.

 

[Astute]

I was answering your point, but I agree there was no monopoly on bullshit. Leave got their bullshit over better because their campaign was led by charasmatic populists.

Are you having a laugh? The leave campaign was led by Gove. My snot has more charisma than Gove.

 

[Astute]

You keep on about being called a racist, why? I have never said you were. I don't doubt that racists voted for the side that promised to control the flow of foreigners coming in. That doesn't mean that 17m leave voters are racists, altough some are.

A lot of people who have come to live in the UK or are descendants of those who emigrated here voted to leave. Yet some just want to use the racist card.

 

[martcov]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/02/brexit-triggers-racism-climate-of-fear

It seems that the abuse my partner got for speaking Italian on the phone wasn't an isolated incident. I will be making a point of us speaking Italian very loudly in public from now on. I really hope someone says something

It has been claimed that hate crimes are just being reported more and/ or that it is probably extreme left people trying to discredit the leavers. The leavers have opened up a can of worms, but are painting it as a historic decision leading to a bright future - allbeit with a few minor adjustments. Maybe open racism is a minor adjustment....
As people say, 'the turkeys have voted for Christmas'.

 

[martcov]

Are you having a laugh? The leave campaign was led by Gove. My snot has more charisma than Gove.

Oh. You seem to have forgotten Boris and Farage... A week is a long time in politics.. No-one claims the Gove swung it, but Boris is counted as a deciding factor.

 

[Sick Boy]

It has been claimed that hate crimes are just being reported more and/ or that it is probably extreme left people trying to discredit the leavers. The leavers have opened up a can of worms, but are painting it as a historic decision leading to a bright future - allbeit with a few minor adjustments. Maybe open racism is a minor adjustment....
As people say, 'the turkeys have voted for Christmas'.

It was long ago that they were claiming that mi5 were planning to rig the result in remain''s favour. I'm just grateful that I still have EU citizenship and can escape.

 

[martcov]

A lot of people who have come to live in the UK or are descendants of those who emigrated here voted to leave. Yet some just want to use the racist card.

So they cannot be racist then?

 

[martcov]

It was long ago that they were claiming that mi5 were planning to rig the result in remain''s favour. I'm just grateful that I still have EU citizenship and can escape.

I am getting my EU citizenship and remaining. I feel sorry for the UK.

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

I am getting my EU citizenship and remaining. I feel sorry for the UK.

Thanks for the sympathy Mart. Depends on your outlook though. By leaving something that a lot of people were/are not happy with (the majority according the the referendum result) it gives the UK a change to operate outside the confines of the EU. Why would you feel sorry for us? Surely there is more the the world than the be all and end all EU?

 

[mrtrench]

They are all racist bigoted Little Englanders. They just do what Johnson or Murdoch says because they cannot think for themselves. They believed all the lies. Referendums are terrible because Hitler held one. They are to blame for the SNP. And so on...

And yet all the perfectly reasonable arguments presented here by people that didn't mention race once; who are able to think for themselves; who believe in democracy - all ignored.

Please stop whinging and accept that whilst a lot of people agree with you, more do not.

 

[martcov]

Thanks for the sympathy Mart. Depends on your outlook though. By leaving something that a lot of people were/are not happy with (the majority according the the referendum result) it gives the UK a change to operate outside the confines of the EU. Why would you feel sorry for us? Surely there is more the the world than the be all and end all EU?

You are right to say the EU is not the be all and end all, it is however the safest bet and geographically a logical trading area.

Whatever happens long term, we are entering a voluntarily recession. The economy will suffer and people will lose their jobs. The racist attacks and insults have shown the sense of national selfishness that has been supressed by being a member of a multi national entity. That may rise more quickly now.

I would have taken the status quo.

 

[CCFC Germany]

Of course there are terrorists in the UK. But not having open borders helps to contain it. Not wanting open borders doesn't make you racist.

No. But claiming that every foreigner is a potential terrorist does.