Where has all the money gone??? (4 Viewers)

[jim20]

One thing I can't quite get my head around is where all the money has gone. Last season we sold madders, were told that money would be reinvested, we had above target gates as well, so what the hell have SISU done with all that money?

I'm not one for wild theory's and I have given SISU the benefit of the doubt, but what the hell are they doing with all the clubs money, we have an average wage bill, reasonably good gates for league one, sell players, surely if the club is not profitable something fraudulent is going on.

 

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[FRY-CCFC]

Into running the club and also the purchases of Jones/Turnbull and the contracts for McCann, Reid, Sordell, Thomas etc.

Idiot.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Top class weed, vintage bikes, John Smedley knitwear & strip clubs....

....oh, sorry, you mean the clubs money.....

 

[stevefloyd]

Do you really need to ask??????????????????????

 

[Liquid Gold]

I think joy has got a solid gold hot tub with NOPM emblazoned in diamonds

 

[ccfc92]

Wh

Into running the club and also the purchases of Jones/Turnbull and the contracts for McCann, Reid, Sordell, Thomas etc.

Idiot.

What about 15 players out, on decent wages, and only signing 6 players?

 

[ajsccfc]

Sharks with lasers for the secret underground lair.

 

[ccfclinney]

Get real fry ccfc . Them contracts are paid for by the players we have released ...
2.75m madders and add ons
3m Wilson
500k Clarke
50k vincelot

Done well to spend all that the clubs a joke. No reinvestment what so ever !!! Jones and Turnbull both be well under 500k!!

 

[ClarkeZ]

More than likely to pay a chunk of wages, then for signing of Jones/Turnbull.
Someone please correct me if im wrong, but I doubt the income from match day gates will be enough to pay the wages of every player, every staff member from scouts to TM to physios, overheads for the shop/training ground, and any other day-to-day running costs. My best guess is a lot of that has either paid off accumulated credit for those costs, or has been set aside to pay those costs this season.

Just because we collected a transfer fee, doesn't mean we automatically have that amount as expendable income.
Plus, i don't think we know if we got it all up front, or if some comes in at later dates/milestones etc.

 

[Ian1779]

Get real fry ccfc . Them contracts are paid for by the players we have released ...
2.75m madders and add ons
3m Wilson
500k Clarke
50k vincelot

Done well to spend all that the clubs a joke. No reinvestment what so ever !!! Jones and Turnbull both be well under 500k!!

Firstly Wilson was sold 2+ years ago.. In the interim we have players wages to pay (including those over the close season), academy to pay for, insurances, day to day running costs as well as no doubt severance packages for Pressley and team.

Yes we've received money but it's plainly clear we are a club that continuously makes a loss - at an absolute best break even. Any windfall we get goes into keeping the club going.

Remember as well that if we were lucky enough to get rid of SISU then a new owner will be faced with same problem. If we were fan owned for example money would be even tighter than it is now.

 

[torchomatic]

Amusing that the shouty types (hi, Twitter) think clubs are run on fresh air. Even the saintly Juggy stated the club didn't have any overheads. LOL, etc etc.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Wh


What about 15 players out, on decent wages, and only signing 6 players?

The club has already let the cat out of the bag on this. They got their budget wrong at the start of the season, remember the mentions of needing an average gate of 14k? There was a shortfall against that. There were suggestions that SISU have had to cover additional costs last season. We have no idea how much of the Maddison money has been received to date either.

 

[Squarks]

Isn't it TM and MV in charge of the budget this year anyway? As said on pretty much every single similar thread there's been. We had targets (probably aspirations above our station) and are still putting together the squad. I agree this is too late in the day to still be assembling a squad but blaming SISU for everything is becoming a bit boring now. Also the above point from js_lilley needs considering as its highly unlikely Norwich gave us the £3m in one lump!

 

[jim20]

I completely understand the club has overheads etc, but we've been told before that if gates were over 11k last season we would break even. Therefore the Maddison money would've been profit, add that to loosing several players and the sale of vincelot, after players coming we should have some money left over.

 

[ccfc92]

The club has already let the cat out of the bag on this. They got their budget wrong at the start of the season, remember the mentions of needing an average gate of 14k? There was a shortfall against that. There were suggestions that SISU have had to cover additional costs last season. We have no idea how much of the Maddison money has been received to date either.

Surely transfers covered the short fall though? Plus the reduction in wages, we should have wages freed up?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Surely transfers covered the short fall though? Plus the reduction in wages, we should have wages freed up?

The transfer fee might cover the shortfall but it's non-recurrent, so if the wage bill was busted, it will need to be reduced to the budgeted level for this season, which I suspect is what has happened.

 

[torchomatic]

We have no idea how much of the Maddison money has been received to date either.

Ask any random fan on Twitter, they know apparently.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Let's spend all that money on players and then when we go bust we can have them all for a day each for a kick about

 

[ClarkeZ]

I completely understand the club has overheads etc, but we've been told before that if gates were over 11k last season we would break even. Therefore the Maddison money would've been profit, add that to loosing several players and the sale of vincelot, after players coming we should have some money left over.

The loss of several players doesn't make us money. TM and MV will almost certainly be keeping any excess wage budget to use for payers later in the season. Probably as an insurance for January when we lose loans and need more. The wage budget makes little difference.
They made a mistake saying that last season, they got the budget wrong and it cost them money, especially when the gates slipped. Especially given the gates so far this season they will be struggling to pay their monthly bills I expect.
Sale of Vince was probably less than what we paid for JJ, but thats speculation.

But yes, money left over doesn't mean its instantaneously expendable. If I happened to win £2k on an accumulator this weekend, I wouldn't just decide that I can spend all £2000 willy nilly, some of it would get set aside as a saving in case I need it for future unexpected expenses, some of it would pay off any accumulated debt. There would be some I would choose to use for myself (i.e. buying JJ). And so on and so forth. If there was any left over, its probably saved ready for when we dont achieve the required gates all season, or for the off season where there is no ticket sale income.

Unfortunately, thats only realistic at this level when a club needs to survive first and foremost. If we started splurging on players and spending a few million, if we didnt get instant success thats suddenly a whole lot of debt not getting paid off, becoming more debt, also not getting paid off and we get into a real problem. It's a business and they are probably only doing what they have to in order to keep the business alive.

 

[Deleted member 2477]

Here we go again. The truth is we dont really know the full facts but to call someone an idiot for asking a question shows why we have fans who dont have two brain cells to rub together

 

[Hobo]

The club has already let the cat out of the bag on this. They got their budget wrong at the start of the season, remember the mentions of needing an average gate of 14k? There was a shortfall against that. There were suggestions that SISU have had to cover additional costs last season. We have no idea how much of the Maddison money has been received to date either.

That budget shortfall was/Is an embarrassment the amount of time Waggott, Mowbray/Venus took to work everything out, then there was the meeting with the financial expert Seppala to check it all out........totally incompetent.

In a normal business Seppala would have been sacked by now; investment/club going backwards, history of poor appointments, lost investment opportunities, lost court cases, no viable plan, no leadership from the top.

 

[Ian1779]

50k doesn't even pay a year contract for a player at 1K a week. What kind of player do you get at that price?

Something that probably doesn't get mentioned is the fact that pay costs aren't just player wage... It's pension contribution, NI contribution both have which have increased a lot recently. Add to that player insurance - and you are probably looking at a lot more. Multiply that over 20+ players some of which will be on 2/3K a week and that's where a big chunk of any money goes to.

It's not the same exactly - but at the school I work in the NI increase means that the school can not replace a teacher as the increase is the cost of at least one qualified teacher.

 

[Nick]

50k doesn't even pay a year contract for a player at 1K a week. What kind of player do you get at that price?

Something that probably doesn't get mentioned is the fact that pay costs aren't just player wage... It's pension contribution, NI contribution both have which have increased a lot recently. Add to that player insurance - and you are probably looking at a lot more. Multiply that over 20+ players some of which will be on 2/3K a week and that's where a big chunk of any money goes to.

It's not the same exactly - but at the school I work in the NI increase means that the school can not replace a teacher as the increase is the cost of at least one qualified teacher.

I think people forget it isn't just player wages too.

The fact Juggy was banging on about being no overheads just shows the understanding people seem to have.

 

[Grendel]

People fail to understand where the club is. It's owned by a sisu company but is effectively a stand alone company which has to be self sufficient.

So all fees and costs have to be balanced against income. If Juggy really said the club have no overheads or extra costs then he really is clueless. Coach travel, food and accommodation for away games, pitch maintenance at the Acadamy, I assume contribution to match costs all need paying. In addition the cash flow has to balanced, no income in the summer but payments must be made.

The Maddison money was used to fund a loan the club had to take out due to incorrect budgeting.

It becomes a vicious circle. Less crowds equals lower budgets. A vicious circle but hardly rocket science.

 

[Liquid Gold]

People fail to understand where the club is. It's owned by a sisu company but is effectively a stand alone company which has to be self sufficient.

So all fees and costs have to be balanced against income. If Juggy really said the club have no overheads or extra costs then he really is clueless. Coach travel, food and accommodation for away games, pitch maintenance at the Acadamy, I assume contribution to match costs all need paying. In addition the cash flow has to balanced, no income in the summer but payments must be made.

The Maddison money was used to fund a loan the club had to take out due to incorrect budgeting.

It becomes a vicious circle. Less crowds equals lower budgets. A vicious circle but hardly rocket science.

About as clear and simple as you can make it

 

[fernandopartridge]

That budget shortfall was/Is an embarrassment the amount of time Waggott, Mowbray/Venus took to work everything out, then there was the meeting with the financial expert Seppala to check it all out........totally incompetent.

In a normal business Seppala would have been sacked by now; investment/club going backwards, history of poor appointments, lost investment opportunities, lost court cases, no viable plan, no leadership from the top.

Yes, I agree. Then again, Seppala is only a shareholder, she isn't running the club. She's holding the purse strings, though.

 

[Nick]

People fail to understand where the club is. It's owned by a sisu company but is effectively a stand alone company which has to be self sufficient.

So all fees and costs have to be balanced against income. If Juggy really said the club have no overheads or extra costs then he really is clueless. Coach travel, food and accommodation for away games, pitch maintenance at the Acadamy, I assume contribution to match costs all need paying. In addition the cash flow has to balanced, no income in the summer but payments must be made.

The Maddison money was used to fund a loan the club had to take out due to incorrect budgeting.

It becomes a vicious circle. Less crowds equals lower budgets. A vicious circle but hardly rocket science.

When you drill down, there are probably so many costs that until they are thought about it doesn't really get thought of.

Some seem to just think "buy players or player wages".

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I honestly don't believe this is about the money from SISU.

Mowbray will have had an agreed budget set in place before the transfer window opened. I think with the players he has let go, and failed to replace. Along with some probable mediocre signings, and at that, not enough of them, is the reason we are in the predicament we are now.

If the budget has been reduced from last season, fair enough, but I think that if Mowbray had said to SISU in June, 'can I have all the same players as last year please' (yes I know they would never all be here at once in reality), I can't see them saying 'no you can't'.

I'm not a SISU lover by any stretch, but this one's on Mowbray for me.

 

[Nick]

People really don't see that Mowbray is trying to aim probably too high.

A good example is the fact that he took 2 x wingers on trial (bearing in mind we don't actually play wingers) and said from the off they would have to be amazing for us to sign them. That sort of thing doesn't seem like something a "desperate" person would do. Neither does Turnbull.

He flies the bloke over from Finland or whereever to take on trial. Surely he would have had a rough idea on budget before arranging it?

Other clubs have also said there are issues getting loans in this season.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Couple of points

- if you take it at face value the club said early this year (I think) that they got their sums wrong and the break even of 11K attendance per match was short of what was required. Therefore unlikely to any lee way in the figures for the attendances being just over 12k per game (although the extra attendance would give the club about £15k extra per match after deducting VAT etc). The major pressure on the income is of course wages. Unlikely anything was left over

- Had the club been covering its costs then I would think there would have been no need for the owners to put in an extra £780k, which it would seem following the Maddison sale was paid down to £530k. Details are in the last accounts filed at Co House. Has more been repaid since February?

- the Maddison sale. Everyone one gets hung up on the supposed headline figure (somewhere between 2m and 3m it would seem). However we don't know what actual cash was received or even when. I would think that part of the payment was in the value of Maddison being here on loan till the end of the season. Most transfers are in staged payments not up front and have substantial costs like agents attached.

- we have had to pay something for Jones and all the signings we have made (well 6) will have incurred agents fees and costs.

- we also paid a fee for Turnbull (yes it might be stage payments we don't know)

- there may well have been settlement fees for the players we didn't keep. Were there settlement payments for Pressley & co?

- there will have been set up costs I would guess to cover the new Ticketmaster arrangement.

- During May June & July we have operating costs but very little income.

- They may have expected add on income from the Wilson sale but that may have restricted due to his injury

- Against all that we have a lower playing wages costs, and season ticket sales

We wont have a better understanding until the next accounts to 31-05-16 are filed - usually end of February following. But that's some of what has gone on I think

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

The loss of several players doesn't make us money. TM and MV will almost certainly be keeping any excess wage budget to use for payers later in the season. Probably as an insurance for January when we lose loans and need more. The wage budget makes little difference.
They made a mistake saying that last season, they got the budget wrong and it cost them money, especially when the gates slipped. Especially given the gates so far this season they will be struggling to pay their monthly bills I expect.
Sale of Vince was probably less than what we paid for JJ, but thats speculation.

But yes, money left over doesn't mean its instantaneously expendable. If I happened to win £2k on an accumulator this weekend, I wouldn't just decide that I can spend all £2000 willy nilly, some of it would get set aside as a saving in case I need it for future unexpected expenses, some of it would pay off any accumulated debt. There would be some I would choose to use for myself (i.e. buying JJ). And so on and so forth. If there was any left over, its probably saved ready for when we dont achieve the required gates all season, or for the off season where there is no ticket sale income.

Unfortunately, thats only realistic at this level when a club needs to survive first and foremost. If we started splurging on players and spending a few million, if we didnt get instant success thats suddenly a whole lot of debt not getting paid off, becoming more debt, also not getting paid off and we get into a real problem. It's a business and they are probably only doing what they have to in order to keep the business alive.

I completely follow those statements.

Would you agree though, that the budget Mowbray has been given is probably acceptable to give League One a good go? Therefore, where we are at the moment in terms of squad probably rests on his shoulders more than SISU's?

 

[Nick]

I completely follow those statements.

Would you agree though, that the budget Mowbray has been given is probably acceptable to give League One a good go? Therefore, where we are at the moment in terms of squad probably rests on his shoulders more than SISU's?

It was very acceptable last season as well, it is as if some people don't understand League 1 and that all managers have money restrictions. That is what makes a good manager isn't it?

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

It was very acceptable last season as well, it is as if some people don't understand League 1 and that all managers have money restrictions. That is what makes a good manager isn't it?

For me it's wheter last years and this years are the same. I think it probably is, which begs the question, why does our squad look so poor in comparison to last season? I'm not just talking about results, the squad looks incredibly weak.

 

[Ian1779]

I think Mowbray has been holding out on the hope that he will get better value for his money waiting till last minute.

Whether this happens or not remains to be seen...

 

[Nick]

I think Mowbray has been holding out on the hope that he will get better value for his money waiting till last minute.

Whether this happens or not remains to be seen...

Holding out for players like Wilson I'd bet or players too goodfor league one who have also been biding their time and get worried.