albatross
Well-Known Member
the attendances
New Trust Statement (47 Viewers)
- Thread starter I was eleven in 87
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the attendances
stupot07
Well-Known Member
I meant metaphorically rather than literally. From my understanding wasps can't sell shares in acl without bond holders consent (I think OSB posted something about it) because it impacts on the lease value.
Do agree £45m is laughable, either that or the council and higgs massively undersold
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ceetee
Well-Known Member
Would we?And of course if Wasps took us on, we would then own our own ground.
Do Wasps RFC own the ground, or is it owned separately by the owners of Wasps?
albatross
Well-Known Member
What ever the Valuation that they have on their books is part of the audited accounts and signed off by the auditors , its not total fantasy but probably right at the top end of what they can say.
With regards to the original sale people forget that independent assessors looked at the value of ACL under a number of different scenarios with CCFC as the main tenant paying the higher rent right through to the Ricoh having no anchor tenant. What WASPS paid for ACL was pretty much in line with that independent evaluation of ACL with no tenant for the Ricoh and a substantial debt.
Once CCFC and WASPS became tenants the valuation was bound to increase.
Nick
Administrator
As it would be if wasps had us?
Otis
Well-Known Member
As I've already clearly stated, when I win the Euro Millions I will buy the club!!!!
albatross
Well-Known Member
Yep probably. Both the rugby and football teams as tenants.
ACL (owners of the Ricoh) are a company with assets that if they chose to the owners could sell on and leave the football club and WASPS as tenants with a new landlord.
One question you also have to ask is at this stage are CCFC £1 disadvantaged by the ownership structure of ACL, given that Mr Fisher is on the public record that they were very happy with the deal that was negotiated to allow the club to return.
I think the Trust have it bang on. SISUs current agenda is totally separate from the business objectives of CCFC which would be to invest and deliver a successful team. For the supporters why else does CCFC exist? For SISU they are a vehicle to distress inline with the court activity in the hope that they win substantial damages.
You have always posted about the need to separate SISU and CCFC but more and more you seem to believe that SISU have the best interests of CCFC at heart. Like the trust I don't believe that they do. They are using the passion and support for CCFC to allow them to limp along build a picture for the court cases. CCFC will not see a penny for that. The club will always be at best break even with them. They will use CCFC to take the money and CCFC will remain limping along in the third tier.
Not being able to get a competitive team until sometime in September looks like it will cost us as much many points as administration, but we still have the debt. Even if we went into admin it is SISU companies that are the biggest creditors so they will call the tune at that point so any potential investor will still have to deal with them.
Nick
Administrator
I have only said they are trying to make the club self funding, not the best interests. I do believe self funding would make the club more attractive wouldn't it?
Everybody just seems to be banging on about investment and ploughing money in?
What ever the Valuation that they have on their books is part of the audited accounts and signed off by the auditors
Do remember though the Auditors are not Property Valuers and their Accounts notes will have something along the lines of " we rely on ........ etc "
But we are due a new valuation under the terms of the Prospectus. - it states the revaluation will be no later than June 2016 and published when available. So let's see how much umpty million is added this time.
http://www.wasps.co.uk/docs/default-source/default-document-library/wasps_prospectus2.pdf?sfvrsn=2
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Never said I support it other than it is the better of the 2 evils as it stands.
I'm telling you how it might happen.
Sisu need to negotiate to stop it happening which includes dropping court cases and building relationships.
We will be liquidated if they don't do this.
They will never get there money back so why not just cut there losses and sell up for what the clubs worth?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
The auditors didn't value the lease a firm of professional valuers did for the security of the bond issue. Details are in the bond issue docs. You have to assume that a large firm of professional valuers reporting to the London Stock Exchange knew what they were doing. It was also the lease value after the 250 year lease was in place and has nothing to do with the amount Wasps paid for the shares (which included a completely different term lease, all other assets and all liabilities). The auditors expressed as part of a general opinion that having checked and tested the details/data the assets of the group were stated at a true and fair value
Now I know this isn't necessarily scientific and is probably simplistic but a method of valuation is to calculate the net present value of income streams from the lease. So if the lease after deduction of costs (just the lease and its direct costs/loan interest) obtained an annual current surplus of £985k each year the NPV of that over the 250 years of the lease factoring in inflation at 2% is £48.5m
Calculator is here http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/financial/present-value-cash-flows-calculator.php (ignore the fact its in $)
Yes I know that's 250 years, how can you know etc etc but just saying it is possible to get such a value in a simplistic way and the base figures for calculation do not have to be that great. It is the extension in time that makes the difference and increases the value from a lease of 41 years £18m to one of 250 years £48.5m
Now I know this isn't necessarily scientific and is probably simplistic but a method of valuation is to calculate the net present value of income streams from the lease. So if the lease after deduction of costs (just the lease and its direct costs/loan interest) obtained an annual current surplus of £985k each year the NPV of that over the 250 years of the lease factoring in inflation at 2% is £48.5m
Calculator is here http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/financial/present-value-cash-flows-calculator.php (ignore the fact its in $)
Yes I know that's 250 years, how can you know etc etc but just saying it is possible to get such a value in a simplistic way and the base figures for calculation do not have to be that great. It is the extension in time that makes the difference and increases the value from a lease of 41 years £18m to one of 250 years £48.5m
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
just curious ....... if the Trust had or indeed did come out against Wasps would those criticising the Trust currently then give general support to their current statements?
Nick
Administrator
If the trust were saying x is a knob, y is a knob, z is a knob then I'd say a lot more people will be giving them support.
Nobody can argue with them going at each party rather than this, which is playing out like a repeat off the Haskell stuff.
Irish Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Fisher still came out and said that BPA wasn't their only option and that they were looking at a site outside of the city. That was only a few weeks ago. Nothing changes with these people.
Yes I agree, not a lot wrong with what they have said. Of course Nick and the other 3 or so stooges inevitably will come rushing to the defence of SISU for some strange reason but there is no denying that they are at the centre of almost every negative aspect to our existence and are very astute at finding a way of blaming everyone else.
Nick
Administrator
Nobody is defending them are they.
If anything, the Trust are openly defending the council by trying to make out things aren't true (that are there in black and white).
What happened last time with the Haskell stuff? Weren't Supporters Direct working with the council's PR company then? It is no co-incidence the statement comes in line with stuff the MPs are going on about.
Repeat after me Nick :
SISU and their actions post 2012 particularly have reduced the club to the isolated and demoralised state that it is in now. Of course others have turned against the club but in reality they have turned against SISU primarily because of their litigious actions against local authority and elected individuals.
SISU and their actions post 2012 particularly have reduced the club to the isolated and demoralised state that it is in now. Of course others have turned against the club but in reality they have turned against SISU primarily because of their litigious actions against local authority and elected individuals.
Nick
Administrator
They haven't turned against SISU, they have turned against the club.
If they had gone into the financial times and said "seppalla is a twat" and absolutely ruined them I doubt anybody would give 2 shits, I certainly wouldn't. Would anybody care if the council destroyed SISU as an entity?
It is the fact that destroying CCFC, doesn't destroy SISU.
That's what tends to get missed.
Nick
Administrator
Yes, then the animal dies and the parasite toddles off somewhere else.
Really can't see why people are so oblivious to it?
Just out of curiosity - what would you expect him to say? It may even be true!
When did you last hear anything about Court Cases?
There is an appeal somewhere waiting but that is normal practice - if it is allowed to be heard.sometime whenever?
Duggins is saying - drop the legals and the Council will negotiate. Negotiate what?
CCFC have to negotiate matters for CCFC - let those discussions take place and let us see what the Council have to suggest from there side.
If something positive then comes out surely there is a starting point
Where will it play?
Nick
Administrator
The only stuff about court cases is coming from everybody but SISU at the minute isn't it?
It is the Council / Wasps / Millerchip that are banging on about it.
Nobody clicks on that Duggins says "drop the legals (and now pay us money you dont legally owe us) and we will help" which implies he has the power to help with things, which then implies he has the power to not help...
Perhaps we need a "CCFC Supporters Trust" ?
But help on what and with whom?
Nick
Administrator
That is the thing. How can he help with Ricoh negotiations? If he can help so much, surely he has the say to hinder.
I'd love nothing more than the trust to go batshit mental at the Council, CSF, Wasps, SISU etc. I'd certainly be right behind them as much as I could.
It is like everybody should be called out about every little thing, they should worry about what they say because people are going to be there waiting to catch them out and prove them wrong.
Fisher says X Y and Z - Go at him with facts "No Tim, that's wrong, why did you say this"
Duggins says he will help if they pay up "How are you going to help, what influence do you have etc." He gave a "no comment" about the club being damaged by wasps and the conditions, and it never gets mentioned again.... How?
Breed says ccfc told him many times they were leaving "Ok son, can you send us over the documents proving this".
Wasps say they wont do a deal, hammer them with "what has the legal action got to do with it? Is there other legal action we dont know about?"
Almost like a bloody detective who wants to chase everybody down to just get to the actual facts.
Irish Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I would hope he would tell the truth. This time perhaps he is. However his track record is not great with the freedom of information enquiries and statements from neighbouring local councils all contradicting statements he made in the past about identified sites. The fact that the BPA site is definitely out of the question and that no one in really curious about this "other site" says it all. Nobody believes him. Why does he still pedal this stuff? What does he hope to get out of it? Only further confirms people's already negative opinion of him.
Nick
Administrator
The thing is, I am all for FOI'ing the shit out of it to prove him wrong like I have said above.
It is just that people like Duggins can sit there and pedal stuff and get away with it, where are the FOI's flying in other directions?
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
I think this statement and recent statements by the trust seem to suggest.
Council are not been helpful with their statements and need to stop them.
Council should butt out of things that are not directly related to them.
Lots of football club owners decisions past, present and they seem to think future and actions have contributed to us now playing in division three. We are now on the verge of losing both our academy and Ricoh facilities. That they believe the solution to this especially the future bit is new owners. They seem to believe fan ownership is the solution to this and want to work with the owners to achieve it.
I get the impression from their statements that they know others have contributed to this but they put the club's actions and decision as the biggest contributor.
I get the impression that they are encouraging all parties to get together to talk regarding the academy. However they expect the club to take the lead on this (which makes sense it is our academy)
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
At court and leaked to the observor.
Even more so in the past court cases and ethics hearing we have seen the council stripped bare.
Have we seen SISU's emails about this saga.
Have we seen SISU's notes from their meetings about this saga.
No
The council have had far far more the FOI (the shit out of them) they have had disclosure and court ordered the shit out of them
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
Trust statements......they're a bit like buses ain't they...
...you wait for fucking ages and see no sign of one.....then 2 come along at the same time.
Curiously though, the first was clean, tidy & punctual....
...the 2nd then just hurtled round the corner beeping its horn, didn't appear on any timetable & looked like school kids had smeared shit on all the windows...
...you wait for fucking ages and see no sign of one.....then 2 come along at the same time.
Curiously though, the first was clean, tidy & punctual....
...the 2nd then just hurtled round the corner beeping its horn, didn't appear on any timetable & looked like school kids had smeared shit on all the windows...