The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (287 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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D
Deleted member 5849
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There's a new book by the Nobel left wing economist Joseph Stiglitz which condemns EMU. I haven't read it - just this review; however it is so much aligned with my thinking on the subject that I thought I'd share:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/wh...riment-has-been-a-disaster-admits-nobel-priz/
Interestingly, Stiglitz also condemns free movement as "an economic and political disaster". And writes that "Britain isn't likely to be much worse off and potentially could even be better off".
I realise there are as many views on economics as there are economists and I don't believe that just because it's written in a book or in a newspaper then it must be true. I also don't expect some here to agree with it; we've already done these discussions to death - expressing our views in good grace & articulately I think for a football forum.. Nevertheless, this article expresses my views better than I have been able.
I've never particularly had an issue with the left wing argument for leaving the EU. Corbyn's bizarre approach to the referendum meant the left wing argument was never heard however.
My biggest concern is that as this country's shifted right since Thatcher, the EU has been the moderating force that the Labour Party hasn't been. I can see leaving the EU being used as an excuse to cut services and leave people without support.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
I don't agree that either the country or the Conservatives have turned right since Thatcher. I think that both are occupying the middle ground. The Tories have become more successful electorally in the middle which has forced Labour way left.
Incidentally, if this is a Left wing perspective, which is almost exactly what I was arguing earlier, then why did you disagree? Not having a go, just making conversation
Incidentally, if this is a Left wing perspective, which is almost exactly what I was arguing earlier, then why did you disagree? Not having a go, just making conversation
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Not since after Thatcher, since Thatcher appeared.
She's resulted in the general thought that you can't win being 'left'. Edward Heath was more left than some Labour pretenders nowadays!
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
Actually I'm not even sure what Right and Left means and I guess that depends on the opinions of the person defining them. It's easy to define extremes: on both sides they favour big state and control; on one side wanting to drag everyone outside the elite into being just above the bread line and on the other allowing some to rise and others to fall below the bread line.
Once you come away from the extremes I think it's more difficult.
Once you come away from the extremes I think it's more difficult.
Terry Gibson's perm
Well-Known Member
Most if them are career politicians now so seem to decide which party to go into based on spaces within and future opportunities prime example the millibands would fit into any if the parties
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
It's noticeable how much the narrow minded, egotistical, ignorant comments are coming back out again.
When I say this, I mean from a contingent of people who voted to remain in the EU, and who seemingly care more about themselves being right, than the actual welfare of the country. Noticeably shouting everyone down and celebrating as soon as anything negative as a result of Brexit is broadcast.
Frankly if you're putting the country down, or praising negative effects of Brexit, you've lost the right to be upset about the result.
When I say this, I mean from a contingent of people who voted to remain in the EU, and who seemingly care more about themselves being right, than the actual welfare of the country. Noticeably shouting everyone down and celebrating as soon as anything negative as a result of Brexit is broadcast.
Frankly if you're putting the country down, or praising negative effects of Brexit, you've lost the right to be upset about the result.
oakey
Well-Known Member
My concern is not who was right but what's the plan?
I fear that we will have around 5 years arguing the toss about BREXIT and we will likely be no better off at the end of it all. That thought is the main reason I feared a LEAVE vote. Not because we will necessarily be worse off but because there is no point making a change which is a massive risk IMO. I hate referendums anyway because they never settle the argument, they merely open cans of worms. Parliament should decide major laws not referenda.
Immigration will not fall in any case because too many vested interests favour and welcome immigrant labour.
LEAVE campaign sold the electorate a pup.
I fear that we will have around 5 years arguing the toss about BREXIT and we will likely be no better off at the end of it all. That thought is the main reason I feared a LEAVE vote. Not because we will necessarily be worse off but because there is no point making a change which is a massive risk IMO. I hate referendums anyway because they never settle the argument, they merely open cans of worms. Parliament should decide major laws not referenda.
Immigration will not fall in any case because too many vested interests favour and welcome immigrant labour.
LEAVE campaign sold the electorate a pup.
lewys33
Well-Known Member
I think that's an unfair comment. I voted remain, but If there were another vote held I would vote leave because people should accept democracy for what it is. It's not about who was right or wrong now it's about making the best of what we have. It's not about "well we told you so" it's about making this work as best we can. We can make it work.
Even if you do want to judge - you can't right now. Nothing can be judged until we are officially out of the EU and we see the consequences.
Who is praising the negative results of BREXIT? Most people are worried about them.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I don't think people are going it gleefully or in a told you so way. A lot of people who voted remain had concerns about the impact of a brexit. Nothing that has happened since has removed those concerns, if anything they've increased.
If we had a clear plan people might be able to relax but it appears to be made up as we go along.
If we had a clear plan people might be able to relax but it appears to be made up as we go along.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
That's fair enough but anyone who believes it as caused a bloody nose for the elite will be disappointed. If anything it's handing them more power and the rest of you will pay for it.
I was called a liar by 'Sir Ernie' when I first reported the racism she had recieved, it seems it wasn't an isolated incident after all. I will look forward to watching fromantic afar from June.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
The big problem I have with that is that 'Remain' were also selling a pup!
...onwards & upwards PUSB
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The remain campaign was a disgrace but to tell the truth would have spelled out the failures of successive and the current governments. Our mate Dave was never going to do that.
I'd be interested to know the Plastic Scouser's viewpoint, in over 10 years of ccfc forums this was the first time I disagreed with him. I could understand the left wing argument for leaving but all that seems to have happened is that power has been handed to a disturbingly right wing government.
I'd be interested to know the Plastic Scouser's viewpoint, in over 10 years of ccfc forums this was the first time I disagreed with him. I could understand the left wing argument for leaving but all that seems to have happened is that power has been handed to a disturbingly right wing government.
Houchens Head
Fairly well known member from Malvern
All I want to know is:
Who came up with that f**kin' stupid word "Brexit"? Why not just call it "Leave" or "Exit". Typical journalistic word!
Who came up with that f**kin' stupid word "Brexit"? Why not just call it "Leave" or "Exit". Typical journalistic word!
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
All this 'where is the plan' stuff is just political game-playing by Labour IMO:
- The Government didn't campaign for leave. Why should it have a plan for something in advance that it didn't propose? Personally, I'd have been more concerned if it had devoted all that time beforehand planning something that they believed would not happen.
- The question was binary. Now we have the answer we need to get specific. It would have been the same had we planned to stay: what should we do then to address all the failings of the EU?
- Of course it will take time to get to a plan; this is a big thing. Again I'd have been more concerned with a knee-jerk plan within weeks of the decision. I'm glad they are taking their time so that they are properly prepared.
- This isn't a plan that we know can be executed unilaterally; it's a negotiating stance. Revealing that stance in advance would be stupid.
I have no objection to closed doors, private consultations with parliament. I do have objections to all this "tell us the plan now" stuff. If Labour were in power and faced with the same situation and then revealed a plan to the country within 3 months of the decision then they'd be even more incompetent than I already believe.
- The Government didn't campaign for leave. Why should it have a plan for something in advance that it didn't propose? Personally, I'd have been more concerned if it had devoted all that time beforehand planning something that they believed would not happen.
- The question was binary. Now we have the answer we need to get specific. It would have been the same had we planned to stay: what should we do then to address all the failings of the EU?
- Of course it will take time to get to a plan; this is a big thing. Again I'd have been more concerned with a knee-jerk plan within weeks of the decision. I'm glad they are taking their time so that they are properly prepared.
- This isn't a plan that we know can be executed unilaterally; it's a negotiating stance. Revealing that stance in advance would be stupid.
I have no objection to closed doors, private consultations with parliament. I do have objections to all this "tell us the plan now" stuff. If Labour were in power and faced with the same situation and then revealed a plan to the country within 3 months of the decision then they'd be even more incompetent than I already believe.
There is clearly no plan and never was.It was always about the economy for me-stay in and reform the EU from the inside. This country has always been deluded by its self importance. It would be laughable if it wasn't so worrying in regards to the negative economic impacts.
ccfctommy
Well-Known Member
Came from Grexit when Greece were thinking about leaving.
Grin?
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
https://www.ft.com/content/78478eee-e170-32d3-bdbb-b88a98f2f9bd
Im going to leave this here and walk away
Im going to leave this here and walk away
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I thought he was just on a sales commission.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
By any measure, the pound is having a bad time.
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According to a trade-weighted index measuring sterling against a basket of its trading peers, the pound has now slumped to its lowest on record, stretching beyond the introduction of free-floating exchange rates in the 1970s and all the way back to the mid-19th century, according to data compiled by the Bank of England.
The pound’s effective exchange rate, which is weighted to reflect the UK’s trade flows, hit a low of 29.27 on Tuesday – weaker than the depths hit during the financial crisis, Britain’s ejection from the European Rate Mechanism in 1992, and its decision to leave the Gold Standard in the 1930s.
The effective exchange rate has broken fresh ground as the pound has fallen to new 31-year lows against the dollar on the back of jitters about the possibility of a “hard Brexit”. Sterling had slumped to as low as $1.2117 in late US trading on Tuesday.
According to the BoE’s current formula for the trade weighted index – last rejigged back in 2006 – the biggest contributing weights to the basket are Germany (22.5 per cent), US (16.5 per cent), France (12.6 per cent), Italy (8.3 per cent) and Japan (7 per cent ).
Sterling has regained some poise on Wednesday after prime minister Theresa May said she would to hold a parliamentary debate on the UK’s exit proceedings and made conciliatory noises about fighting for “maximum possible” access to EU markets.
But it has since fallen back to just 0.6 per cent up on the day against the dollar at $1.2190 at publication time.
Sample the FT’s top stories for a week
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Select topic
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According to a trade-weighted index measuring sterling against a basket of its trading peers, the pound has now slumped to its lowest on record, stretching beyond the introduction of free-floating exchange rates in the 1970s and all the way back to the mid-19th century, according to data compiled by the Bank of England.
The pound’s effective exchange rate, which is weighted to reflect the UK’s trade flows, hit a low of 29.27 on Tuesday – weaker than the depths hit during the financial crisis, Britain’s ejection from the European Rate Mechanism in 1992, and its decision to leave the Gold Standard in the 1930s.
The effective exchange rate has broken fresh ground as the pound has fallen to new 31-year lows against the dollar on the back of jitters about the possibility of a “hard Brexit”. Sterling had slumped to as low as $1.2117 in late US trading on Tuesday.
According to the BoE’s current formula for the trade weighted index – last rejigged back in 2006 – the biggest contributing weights to the basket are Germany (22.5 per cent), US (16.5 per cent), France (12.6 per cent), Italy (8.3 per cent) and Japan (7 per cent ).
Sterling has regained some poise on Wednesday after prime minister Theresa May said she would to hold a parliamentary debate on the UK’s exit proceedings and made conciliatory noises about fighting for “maximum possible” access to EU markets.
But it has since fallen back to just 0.6 per cent up on the day against the dollar at $1.2190 at publication time.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
Shit, I just read up on that, they are threatening to take our marmite away.
Terry Gibson's perm
Well-Known Member
No doubt more people sitting in offices playing around in fantasy land with money but making a fortune as they love instability.
dutchman
Well-Known Member
Even where those products are made in the UK and so unaffected by the fall in the pound.
Terry Gibson's perm
Well-Known Member
Just more greedy bastard behaviour, I will survive without these products.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Just using brexit as an excuse to raise prices. Some products are even made in the U.K. And this unaffected. Of course that's brexits fault also.
I lost a fiver from my pocket the other day. Brexits fault again.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
What's your point?
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
You can't reform the eu first and foremost as when Dave came back with a fag packet of pitty changes it became obvious. If he came back with a good deal on immigration to this country brexit wouldn't of happened.
As for self importance you just remind me of the remain campaign saying again again we are not good enough. I think we are. Why the need to put us british people down? Is it not a good thing to be proud and want to be self governing? I don't get it.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
No that can't be right. It's brexits fault didn't you get the memo. We are having a second referendum also as a lot of people didn't like the result so the answer is of course to do it again to get the right answer. This democracy game is hard to play.
Love how milliband and clegg have signed this MPs thing or whatever it is on leaving the EU purely because they have become unimportant and sent their parties to Devestating lows but somehow feel they still have a voice. Of course when we leave the eu the gravy train will end for them in Brussels. Ah the real reason why they are upset.