Jon Sharp - BPA (39 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

You don't prepare a business model just around that though do you.

20,000 would be fine - if games are occasionally sold out even better.

You prepare yourself business model based on success. We've seen last season that 20k is barely big enough for CCFC in league one with a hint of success. We've seen the same even in cup games.

 

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[stupot07]

What you fail to say is how many were just under 25k ...
20 August 2005

Queens Park Rangers H 3-0 23,000
29 August 2005

Southampton H 1-1 23,000
10 September 2005

Reading H 1-1 22,074
24 September 2005

Hull City H 0-2 21,161
15 October 2005

Crystal Palace H 1-4 24,438
29 October 2005

Luton Town H 1-0 22,228

26 November 2005

Norwich City H 2-2 20,433


21 January 2006

Derby County H 6-1 20,267
4 February 2006

Brighton & Hove Albion H 2-0 20,541
15 February 2006

Sheffield Wednesday H 2-1 20,021
11 March 2006

Sheffield United H 2-0 23,506
1 April 2006

Preston North End H 0-1 21,023
30 April 2006

Cardiff City H 3-1 22,536

I deliberately haven't placed in here those over 25k... and just to let you know I've also left out 3-4 that were over 19k

You have to factor in that was our first season at the Ricoh, and a lot of those large crowds were due the curiosity/new stadium factor. I'd hazard a guess that the average away attendances were significantly larger than the subsequent seasons as away fans 'ticked off' a first visit to a new stadium. That season ead anomaly full stop, the previous season our average was around 15k.

20k would be aquate for our needs, if we had a decent run it would for encourage people to commit longer term and would make getting and having a ticket special.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[clint van damme]

This whole discussion is a bit silly really but to say we needed a 25,000 stadium would mean if we were still at that old ground we used to have surrounded by houses and no parking would be a sign of our total lack of ambition.

Ok

but HR had stood for decades and was ours.
If the need arose to expand it that option would have been there.
This is a different situation, we are talking about building a new stadium and what would be the ideal capacity.
Too small and we're hamstrung by it for ever, too big and we've built beyond requirement.
To me if you can get 3 or 4 25,000 - 30,000 crowds a season then you build to accommodate that and aim for more attendances in that range.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

You have to factor in that was our first season at the Ricoh, and a lot of those large crowds were due the curiosity/new stadium factor. I'd hazard a guess that the average away attendances were significantly larger than the subsequent seasons as away fans 'ticked off' a first visit to a new stadium. That season ead anomaly full stop, the previous season our average was around 15k.

20k would be aquate for our needs, if we had a decent run it would for encourage people to commit longer term and would make getting and having a ticket special.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Lets agree to disagree mate, but for 3 years average gate stayed around the20-22k

 

[clint van damme]

You have to factor in that was our first season at the Ricoh, and a lot of those large crowds were due the curiosity/new stadium factor. I'd hazard a guess that the average away attendances were significantly larger than the subsequent seasons as away fans 'ticked off' a first visit to a new stadium. That season ead anomaly full stop, the previous season our average was around 15k.

20k would be aquate for our needs, if we had a decent run it would for encourage people to commit longer term and would make getting and having a ticket special.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

think it's also fair to say, and like much of this thread it's hypothetical, but if new owners prepared to build a stadium came to our rescue they wouldn't be doing it with the intention of bobbing about the lower leagues.

 

[rupert_bear]

There is an alternative site, or could be, the recently vacated car compound that used to be Lex on the corner of Foleshill Road and Old Church Road, plenty big enough for a Highfield Road type cloned stadium. A stones throw from the Ricoh so parking will be little difference to what we have now.

 

[Captain Dart]

Which is why I say we need at least 25k Capacity Stadium!

There is one up the road for one off big matches.

Anyway..
1) Butts isn't going to happen
2) Min realistic size for CCFC is 20,000 with easy expansion to 25,000 (needed in Championship)

 

[Grendel]

You prepare yourself business model based on success. We've seen last season that 20k is barely big enough for CCFC in league one with a hint of success. We've seen the same even in cup games.

Your argument is based on emotion not economic reality.

The number of times we've needed a ground of that size on the last 40 years shows its not necessary.

Swansea have a business model for success - we in a 32,000 stadium have a model of failure.

 

[skybluetony176]

Your argument is based on emotion not economic reality.

The number of times we've needed a ground of that size on the last 40 years shows its not necessary.

Swansea have a business model for success - we in a 32,000 stadium have a model of failure.

Hardly. It's based on if you have a 20k stadium you'll find a natural place for a 20k stadium. It's wether you determine that natural place a success or not. My guess it's more likely to equal mediocre league one with an odd good cup run. That's going to turn people of not on.

 

[Astute]

Swansea have a business model for success - we in a 32,000 stadium have a model of failure.

It doesn't matter what size ground we play in. We would still have a model of failure. We are run by SISU.

And can you remind everyone what gates we were getting when SISU took over?

I don't suppose you will. The truth hurts too much when everyone can see that you are wrong.

OK make excuses for what the gates were when SISU took over

 

[Otis]

There is an alternative site, or could be, the recently vacated car compound that used to be Lex on the corner of Foleshill Road and Old Church Road, plenty big enough for a Highfield Road type cloned stadium. A stones throw from the Ricoh so parking will be little difference to what we have now.

I mentioned the very same thing a few weeks back, but no one responded at all. The lot is completely vacant and has to be bigger than the Butts location.

 

[Astute]

I mentioned the very same thing a few weeks back, but no one responded at all. The lot is completely vacant and has to be bigger than the Butts location.

And access would be much better.

But SISU would have to pay for the land as well as build costs. So a non starter if the Butts thing is a bluff. And a non starter if they want a stadium as cheaply as possible.

 

[Otis]

And access would be much better.

But SISU would have to pay for the land as well as build costs. So a non starter if the Butts thing is a bluff. And a non starter if they want a stadium as cheaply as possible.

So we're talking jumpers for goal posts, a tin shed for a stand and a caravan for the changing rooms/exhibition halls/concert venue.

Refreshments will be sold by a bloke on a tricycle offering cones and wafers.

 

[Astute]

So we're talking jumpers for goal posts, a tin shed for a stand and a caravan for the changing rooms/exhibition halls/concert venue.

Refreshments will be sold by a bloke on a tricycle offering cones and wafers.

Do you really believe that it would be as luxurious as you say?

 

[Grendel]

It doesn't matter what size ground we play in. We would still have a model of failure. We are run by SISU.

And can you remind everyone what gates we were getting when SISU took over?

I don't suppose you will. The truth hurts too much when everyone can see that you are wrong.

OK make excuses for what the gates were when SISU took over

The stadium impact was a major factor - as was the fact tickets never peaked at more than £12 per person when the break even figure was £23. That's the rub isn't it - a smaller stadium doesn't always mean greater income.

 

[Grendel]

Hardly. It's based on if you have a 20k stadium you'll find a natural place for a 20k stadium. It's wether you determine that natural place a success or not. My guess it's more likely to equal mediocre league one with an odd good cup run. That's going to turn people of not on.

Why would a 20k stadium equal mediocrity Tony?

 

[Astute]

The stadium impact was a major factor - as was the fact tickets never peaked at more than £12 per person when the break even figure was £23. That's the rub isn't it - a smaller stadium doesn't always mean greater income.

Of course a smaller stadium doesn't mean a bigger income.

So what was the average gates when SISU took over?

And also....we had such a high break even amount because of the wages that were being paid to the players. We were paying too much for mediocre players. It had nothing to do with the size of the stadium....although it would have had something to do with it if the stadium would have been as small as you would say is big enough.

 

[skybluetony176]

Why would a 20k stadium equal mediocrity Tony?

At this level ticket revenue is king and as we keep being reminded what sets the budget. Apparently 12.5k was breakeven last season then it wasn't. That's in a stadium that costs us in real terms very little, we have none of the day to day running costs and we have no debt associated to the development. You're suggesting that we develop the BPA at 20k, we're going to pay the running costs, we're going to service the debt of development and we're still going to have a competitive budget under the current must breakeven and pay for itself business model the current owners have us under?

 

[Grendel]

Of course a smaller stadium doesn't mean a bigger income.

So what was the average gates when SISU took over?

And also....we had such a high break even amount because of the wages that were being paid to the players. We were paying too much for mediocre players. It had nothing to do with the size of the stadium....although it would have had something to do with it if the stadium would have been as small as you would say is big enough.

So you are saying that we should have slashed wages and survived on £12 a head tickets just so we could say we had big crowds - even though in reality we were not selling them at full price?

You say a smaller stadium doesn't mean a bigger income. OK answer this then - in the first season at the Ricoh did we earn more match day revenue than Swansea City with a 20,000 stadium?

 

[skybluetony176]

So you are saying that we should have slashed wages and survived on £12 a head tickets just so we could say we had big crowds - even though in reality we were not selling them at full price?

You say a smaller stadium doesn't mean a bigger income. OK answer this then - in the first season at the Ricoh did we earn more match day revenue than Swansea City with a 20,000 stadium?

We're in league one. Ticket revenue is king. Why restrict your biggest revenue earner? Are we going to pay for running costs and service the development debt because we have more of the profit from the pie sales?

 

[Astute]

So you are saying that we should have slashed wages and survived on £12 a head tickets just so we could say we had big crowds - even though in reality we were not selling them at full price?

You say a smaller stadium doesn't mean a bigger income. OK answer this then - in the first season at the Ricoh did we earn more match day revenue than Swansea City with a 20,000 stadium?

Are you trying to change history again?

We got into financial difficulties by paying players too much. That is a well known fact. So are you saying that we should have continued to pay the players more than we could afford?

And yes I am saying that a smaller stadium doesn't mean a bigger income. If I am wrong and you are right for once why don't we just move into the Butts without extending it?

 

[The Reverend Skyblue]

I actually do enjoy the Grendel and Tony arguments , is that sad.
Anyway have you two thought of your own website/ YouTube site,. With the right manager you could then take it to TV, a late night show on Dave or something. We could have Italia as our first guest, that would be interesting. OSB58 could do a financial segment on how much more we are in the shite from the previous week/month
Otis could do the warmup comedy bit to get the live audience going ready for when we go on air.
You could follow the shite I have to sit through with the wife , The real housewives of Orange County, because then I ve something to aim for when it's on.
There is money to be made out of you two ,I'm sure of that

 

[Grendel]

We're in league one. Ticket revenue is king. Why restrict your biggest revenue earner? Are we going to pay for running costs and service the development debt because we have more of the profit from the pie sales?

But you said in a post above that you adopt a natural place for success

I would say that a natutal place for success would have been the ground we previously owned with a 10,000 less capacity than this one.

So you actually think we are better off now as the stadium is bigger?

Wow

 

[Grendel]

Are you trying to change history again?

We got into financial difficulties by paying players too much. That is a well known fact. So are you saying that we should have continued to pay the players more than we could afford?

And yes I am saying that a smaller stadium doesn't mean a bigger income. If I am wrong and you are right for once why don't we just move into the Butts without extending it?

Well answer the question then. Swansea 20,000 stadium against our average in the first years the the Ricoh - who earned the most?

We weren't paying players more than the average in the league of clubs with crowds similar to us - so you now admit the business model meant we should have slashed wages and acted like a club the size of Peterborough as we had to slash prices to fill the ground?

Are you and Tony Economic graduates?

 

[shmmeee]

We need the ability to go up to 30k in an ideal world. 15k would be fine to start with if we are where we are now, but I'd be concerned about how quick we could upgrade. Before they were talking about 6 months, which is half a season. Would you want a 10k capacity for half a season when you get promoted? Would you want to be limited to 15k on a promotion run?

18-20k seems more sensible of we have any plans for a promotion challenge in the next few years. Then go to 25-28k if we sustain ourselves in the league above or even if a miracle double promotion happened.

That said, we haven't really had a challenge since coming down, so maybe it's all wishful thinking.

 

[Astute]

Well answer the question then. Swansea 20,000 stadium against our average in the first years the the Ricoh - who earned the most?

We weren't paying players more than the average in the league of clubs with crowds similar to us - so you now admit the business model meant we should have slashed wages and acted like a club the size of Peterborough as we had to slash prices to fill the ground?

Are you and Tony Economic graduates?

Arsenal play in the same division as Swansea. So the price they are able to charge will be closer than a Prem side and Division 3 side. So which club earns the most? Arsenal with the bigger ground?

 

[Astute]

We weren't paying players more than the average in the league of clubs with crowds similar to us - so you now admit the business model meant we should have slashed wages and acted like a club the size of Peterborough as we had to slash prices to fill the ground

How did we get 60m in debt?

Oh yes we paid the players too much.

 

[Grendel]

Arsenal play in the same division as Swansea. So the price they are able to charge will be closer than a Prem side and Division 3 side. So which club earns the most? Arsenal with the bigger ground?

With respect Arsenal fill the stadium - we do not. So again I ask Swansea - 20,000 us higher which was the best revenue

Please answer rather than divert

Actually don't - Swansea with a 12,000 less capcity earnt more

 

[Grendel]

How did we get 60m in debt?

Oh yes we paid the players too much.

So you actually believe in the Sisu model of self sufficiency

Interesting - are you Tim Fisher as that is exactly what he would say

 

[Astute]

With respect Arsenal fill the stadium - we do not. So again I ask Swansea - 20,000 us higher which was the best revenue

Please answer rather than divert

Actually don't - Swansea with a 12,000 less capcity earnt more

So it is OK for you to choose a team doing better than us and that have a stadium that isn't big enough but I can't compare them with a team doing even better with a ground that still isn't big enough?

Then you say that I am diverting

 

[skybluetony176]

But you said in a post above that you adopt a natural place for success

I would say that a natutal place for success would have been the ground we previously owned with a 10,000 less capacity than this one.

So you actually think we are better off now as the stadium is bigger?

Wow

I suggest you try reading my post again because that is nothing like what I said.

 

[Astute]

So you actually believe in the Sisu model of self sufficiency

Interesting - are you Tim Fisher as that is exactly what he would say

Are you now saying that SISU should be spending money that isn't coming in through the turnstiles?

Strangely enough it is you that always defends Richardson. The person that put us in the shit by overspending on players and then getting us the Ricoh......or would have if we could have afforded it.

 

[Astute]

I suggest you try reading my post again because that is nothing like what I said.

When does he ever read what someone posts and not twist the words to suit his agenda?

 

[skybluetony176]

With respect Arsenal fill the stadium - we do not. So again I ask Swansea - 20,000 us higher which was the best revenue

Please answer rather than divert

Actually don't - Swansea with a 12,000 less capcity earnt more

With respect Arsenal are in the premier league we aren't. If everything was hunky dory at Swansea with a 22k stadium why are they looking to increase capacity considerably? Is it because the smaller capacity stadium model works for a successful team?

 

[Astute]

With respect Arsenal are in the premier league we aren't. If everything was hunky dory at Swansea with a 22k stadium why are they looking to increase capacity considerably? Is it because the smaller capacity stadium model works for a successful team?

Because Swansea want to have a lower income by having a bigger stadium.