Religious intolerance (39 Viewers)

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Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
I guess this tale fits into this category.

My daughter does drama and a boy (12 year old) at school said he was really interested in having a go at it too. He is very bright and bubbly and a very confident lad, with a great imagination. Perfect for impro I would have said.

So, anyway, he did two taster sessions at one of the drama groups and said he absolutely loved it. They loved him too and he really shone. However, his parents are from Kurdistan and when the boy told his dad he wanted to join full time his dad did a bit of 'research.'

He has now said the boy can't go. He looked on some website somewhere and it said if you do normal stage acting that's fine, but if you do musicals you are a raging homosexual. :(

The lad is now banned from joining. The boy is very Westernised. His parents were born in Kurdistan though and I think only came here about 10 years ago.

I hate to hear stories like this. Quite unbelievable in the 21st century that we still have such Neanderthal views around.
 
Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
The principal of the theatre group has just texted me to say his dad said 'We want him to do classical theatre, so this is not for him.' That was after he had asked what sort of theatre they did and the principal said they sometimes do musicals.

Poor lad.
 
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Grappa

Well-Known Member
Religious intolerance is when you're not tolerant of others' religion or beliefs.

My old man was an atheist and there's no way he would have let me do ballet when I was a kid.
 
Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
Grappa said:
Religious intolerance is when you're not tolerant of others' religion or beliefs.

My old man was an atheist and there's no way he would have let me do ballet when I was a kid.
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Because he would have thought it could turn you gay?

Get your point, but where I would disagree slightly is that 50-60+ years ago you would find a lack of tolerance towards gay people here in Britain and the States, but that we are more educated nowadays and we understand the science behind things and the way people are built and there is more of an acceptance than there ever was before.

With a religious creed some people can be unwavering in their beliefs because they accept the words of a book to be the truth and that, that truth will never change.

Do feel therefore there is an argument for religious intolerance. It is the intransigence of the words in ancient books of thousands of years ago that some people and some religions accept as gospel that stops their thinking processes from going forwards.

Had your grandad been born here today his thinking might be quite different to what it was then.
 
duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
Otis said:
I guess this tale fits into this category.

My daughter does drama and a boy (12 year old) at school said he was really interested in having a go at it too. He is very bright and bubbly and a very confident lad, with a great imagination. Perfect for impro I would have said.

So, anyway, he did two taster sessions at one of the drama groups and said he absolutely loved it. They loved him too and he really shone. However, his parents are from Kurdistan and when the boy told his dad he wanted to join full time his dad did a bit of 'research.'

He has now said the boy can't go. He looked on some website somewhere and it said if you do normal stage acting that's fine, but if you do musicals you are a raging homosexual. :(

The lad is now banned from joining. The boy is very Westernised. His parents were born in Kurdistan though and I think only came here about 10 years ago.

I hate to hear stories like this. Quite unbelievable in the 21st century that we still have such Neanderthal views around.
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I'm not sure whether this is related to the father's deep religious convictions or his raging homophobia - it's possible to have one or the other without having both, so I wouldn't be too fast to jump to conclusions regarding the religious angle, Otis.

Regardless, my simple opinion on this is that you're fully entitled to believe whatever the hell you want to believe regarding the existence of God or Gods, or indeed their complete non-existence. However the law of the land states that we're all equal regardless of gender or sexuality, and your belief or culture no matter how sincerely held does not trump that.

Similarly, the law allows people to practice their religion without harassment and your (or my) lack of belief does not trump that either.

Either way I'm reminded of the classic piece of school desk graffiti - "My mother made me a homosexual.", to which the response was "If I buy her the wool would she make me one too?". :)
 
dancers lance

dancers lance

Well-Known Member
Grappa said:
Religious intolerance is when you're not tolerant of others' religion or beliefs.

My old man was an atheist and there's no way he would have let me do ballet when I was a kid.
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It also means you can be intolerant to others because of your religious dogma
duffer said:
I'm not sure whether this is related to the father's deep religious convictions or his raging homophobia - it's possible to have one or the other without having both, so I wouldn't be too fast to jump to conclusions regarding the religious angle, Otis.

Regardless, my simple opinion on this is that you're fully entitled to believe whatever the hell you want to believe regarding the existence of God or Gods, or indeed their complete non-existence. However the law of the land states that we're all equal regardless of gender or sexuality, and your belief or culture no matter how sincerely held does not trump that.

Similarly, the law allows people to practice their religion without harassment and your (or my) lack of belief does not trump that either.

Either way I'm reminded of the classic piece of school desk graffiti - "My mother made me a homosexual.", to which the response was "If I buy her the wool would she make me one too?". :)
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The equality argument is bullshit, if I made a statement that I hated gay people and my argument was "just because I do" I would be arrested. However, if I made the same statement and said it was because of my religious belief, nothing would happen to me.
 
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duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
dancers lance said:
It also means you can be intolerant to others because of your religious dogma

The equality argument is bullshit, if I made a statement that I hated gay people and my argument was "just because I do" I would be arrested. However, if I made the same statement and said it was because of my religious belief, nothing would happen to me.
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Erm... I don't think you've really grasped how the law works. Your religious belief does not give you the right to disregard the law, see below.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37748681

You can also be intolerant of others because of a dogmatic hatred of those who believe in a particular religion of course...
 
Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
The thing that makes me laugh here is that the dad approached the principal to ask what sort of drama they did there and as soon as the principal said mainly drama, but some musicals, the dad said that they wanted the boy to do classical theatre, so it wasn't for him.

Yeah, it's not like Shakespeare and Greek tragedy is laced with gay characters is it!!! Doh!!

I think the parents here are quite strict Muslims, so I am assuming (and it is just an assumption) that this is the reasoning behind the 'raging homosexuals ' comment.

I find it all very sad.

Anyway, I stand by my point on religious intolerance. The Church of England to a degree has accepted homosexuality, well at least moved forwards on its stance anyway.

Those devouts across many religions however, who believe the literal word of the Bible and Quran etc. and accept it word for word (even that is surely open to interpretation) are entrenched in their views and I don't believe will ever change.
 
Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete said:
Can't see how it's religious intolerance Otis!! Just plain stupid
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Well, yep, but instead of getting tied up in the wording (I would say an intolerance on religious grounds), we just have to agree it is so wrong on any level.

Would also like to throw into the mix, Frank Sinatra, Gerrard Butler, Tom Cruise, Clint Eastwood, Johnny Depp and film hard men, Oliver Reed and Lee Marvin. All have done musicals, many of them renowned womanisers.

Yeah, raging homosexuals though..
 
Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
Interesting to note that this bloke thinks his 12 yr old son doing musicals will turn him gay, yet let's him play 18 certificate Xbox games.
 
Liquid Gold

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
Otis said:
The thing that makes me laugh here is that the dad approached the principal to ask what sort of drama they did there and as soon as the principal said mainly drama, but some musicals, the dad said that they wanted the boy to do classical theatre, so it wasn't for him.

Yeah, it's not like Shakespeare and Greek tragedy is laced with gay characters is it!!! Doh!!

I think the parents here are quite strict Muslims, so I am assuming (and it is just an assumption) that this is the reasoning behind the 'raging homosexuals ' comment.

I find it all very sad.

Anyway, I stand by my point on religious intolerance. The Church of England to a degree has accepted homosexuality, well at least moved forwards on its stance anyway.

Those devouts across many religions however, who believe the literal word of the Bible and Quran etc. and accept it word for word (even that is surely open to interpretation) are entrenched in their views and I don't believe will ever change.
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This is the thing that gets me though, people use their 'devout' faith as reasoning for their homophobic beliefs arguing that they believe the bible should be taken literally. They don't however believe that their wife should be stoned because of wearing mixed fabrics, do they buy food from a farm where crops are sowed side by side as that is punishable by death. Do they know people who wear torn clothes should be damned to hell.

People just use religion as an excuse for homophobia and I bet they don't follow the other 1000 antiquated rules in the bible, just this one.
 
RegTheDonk

RegTheDonk

Well-Known Member
It's peer pressure too, I'd venture. Probably not unlike Grappa's story - your lad wants to do something that would be laughed at or frowned upon by your friends or family. It's a great shame for the lad and I sympathise - did drama myself at school, it's helped me get the job I have today. Can't he just take a break for a couple of months when they've got a musical in production?
 
Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
RegTheDonk said:
It's peer pressure too, I'd venture. Probably not unlike Grappa's story - your lad wants to do something that would be laughed at or frowned upon by your friends or family. It's a great shame for the lad and I sympathise - did drama myself at school, it's helped me get the job I have today. Can't he just take a break for a couple of months when they've got a musical in production?
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Nope, I think not.

As a result of this he has said to the boy no more drama and has also taken his phone off him forever. Way OTT and incredibly harsh

Apparently a man of his word and who sticks to his decisions too. The lad honestly believes that's it and the phone is gone for good.

Maybe he is worried his son actually is gay. If he is I pity him. Can't see him getting any help or understanding from his parents on the matter. :(
 
RegTheDonk

RegTheDonk

Well-Known Member
Does seem a bit OTT with the phone, and it makes me sad when the wishes of the individual are forsaken for cultural values. Very unfortunate that the dad is so strict but as long as there's no law broken, or mental or physical abuse, it looks like their parenting styles have to be respected.

Would suggest perhaps trying to make the whole family inclusive - invite the lad to the class birthday parties, events, fun days etc, hopefully the parents will come along. Maybe them getting to enjoy our values, see the other side of the coin, let them see we're all the same and maybe he'll come round with a few friendly chats. All parents should want their kids to enjoy all that life has to offer.
 
dancers lance

dancers lance

Well-Known Member
duffer said:
Erm... I don't think you've really grasped how the law works. Your religious belief does not give you the right to disregard the law, see below.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37748681

You can also be intolerant of others because of a dogmatic hatred of those who believe in a particular religion of course...
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I think I have a better grasp of it than you do, these people have never been convicted because they openly say they don't agree with homosexuality, which many religious types say all the time, they were convicted because they refused to provide a service based on someone's sexuality they would have been convicted exactly the same if they had refused to serve a disabled person. The funny thing is though you would never be able to stand up in court and be taken seriously if you said "well, it's what I believe, i think disabled people are wrong because I read it in an ancient book and it's fact, well, it didn't actually say that but it mentioned someone with a limp and have chosen to personally take that as meaning disabled people are evil" but as soon as you put discrimination under the banner of religion, It all of a sudden gets given credence and must be respected, because it's what they believe?
 
duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
dancers lance said:
I think I have a better grasp of it than you do, these people have never been convicted because they openly say they don't agree with homosexuality, which many religious types say all the time, they were convicted because they refused to provide a service based on someone's sexuality they would have been convicted exactly the same if they had refused to serve a disabled person. The funny thing is though you would never be able to stand up in court and be taken seriously if you said "well, it's what I believe, i think disabled people are wrong because I read it in an ancient book and it's fact, well, it didn't actually say that but it mentioned someone with a limp and have chosen to personally take that as meaning disabled people are evil" but as soon as you put discrimination under the banner of religion, It all of a sudden gets given credence and must be respected, because it's what they believe?
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You've not understood the law at all.

You're allowed to believe anything you like, and if you can do so within the bounds of the law you're also allowed to express those beliefs no matter how distasteful to others.

You understand don't you, that you are also allowed to say out loud that you don't agree with homosexuality, or Christianity, or Islam. It is not against the law to express those opinions, and you don't have to use your religion or lack of it as an excuse.

What you're not allowed to do in law, is discriminate in terms of providing a service or employment to another person on the grounds of their sexuality, religion or race.

If you think that being, say, Muslim grants you an exception to those laws then provide some evidence where this has been used as an actual defence in court.

It's fair enough to say that you don't like the opinions that other people hold based on their religion.

However once you start going down the road of saying that people are evading the law on what you can and can't do because of their religion then I start to worry. That looks a lot like what you're accusing others of here, an intolerance based on an prejudice.
 
dancers lance

dancers lance

Well-Known Member
duffer said:
You've not understood the law at all.

You're allowed to believe anything you like, and if you can do so within the bounds of the law you're also allowed to express those beliefs no matter how distasteful to others.

You understand don't you, that you are also allowed to say out loud that you don't agree with homosexuality, or Christianity, or Islam. It is not against the law to express those opinions, and you don't have to use your religion or lack of it as an excuse.

What you're not allowed to do in law, is discriminate in terms of providing a service or employment to another person on the grounds of their sexuality, religion or race.

If you think that being, say, Muslim grants you an exception to those laws then provide some evidence where this has been used as an actual defence in court.

It's fair enough to say that you don't like the opinions that other people hold based on their religion.

However once you start going down the road of saying that people are evading the law on what you can and can't do because of their religion then I start to worry. That looks a lot like what you're accusing others of here, an intolerance based on an prejudice.
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These christian bakers used religious belief as their defence in court?
 
duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
dancers lance said:
These christian bakers used religious belief as their defence in court?
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Yes. And it didn't work because the court found against them, which makes my point exactly.

http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Ju...nt - Lee v Ashers Baking Co Ltd 24 Oct 16.htm

Here's the key quote from the judge, my notes in parentheses:

The judge determined that the relevant anti-discrimination provisions were necessary in a democratic society and were a proportionate means of achieving the legitimate aim of protecting the rights and freedoms of the respondent (the respondent was the one who wanted the 'Gay' cake). To do otherwise would be to allow religious belief to dictate what the law is. The first and second appellants (appellants were the bakers) were entitled to continue to hold their genuine and deeply held religious beliefs and to manifest them, but this must be done in accordance with the law...
 
dancers lance

dancers lance

Well-Known Member
duffer said:
Yes. And it didn't work because the court found against them, which makes my point exactly.

http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Judicial Decisions/SummaryJudgments/Documents/Decision in Ashers Bakery Appeal/j_j_Summary of judgment - Lee v Ashers Baking Co Ltd 24 Oct 16.htm

Here's the key quote from the judge, my notes in parentheses:

The judge determined that the relevant anti-discrimination provisions were necessary in a democratic society and were a proportionate means of achieving the legitimate aim of protecting the rights and freedoms of the respondent (the respondent was the one who wanted the 'Gay' cake). To do otherwise would be to allow religious belief to dictate what the law is. The first and second appellants (appellants were the bakers) were entitled to continue to hold their genuine and deeply held religious beliefs and to manifest them, but this must be done in accordance with the law...
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Whether it was successful or not is not my point, what I'm trying to say is this, if you take the statement I made as a point of argument ("well, it's what I believe, i think disabled people are wrong because I read it in an ancient book and it's fact, well, it didn't actually say that but it mentioned someone with a limp and have chosen to personally take that as meaning disabled people are evil") now this could be a genuine and deeply held belief and not one based on religion, but not a single court in the land would allow it as the basis for an appeal and no judge would make a similar statement to that above unless religion was involved, which is the absolute epitome of 'one rule for one and one rule for another'
 
Captain Dart

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
What category does this come under?
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
I could tell you a bunch of stories like this about kids I've taught not being supported due to stupid beliefs, often homophobia.

But they all involve white British parents, so you probably wouldn't be interested.
 
dancers lance

dancers lance

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
I could tell you a bunch of stories like this about kids I've taught not being supported due to stupid beliefs, often homophobia.

But they all involve white British parents, so you probably wouldn't be interested.
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You forgot to put the word 'religious' in front of white British parents, you are the first person to bring skin colour into this argument and you are an educator for a living? Perhaps you should spend less time trying to create 'straw man' arguments and concentrate more on the School Standards and Frameworks act 1998 and help those who don't believe, kids who don't want to have to put up with, and be ridiculed by others who believe this religious bullshit on a daily basis.
 
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