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JR2

oldskyblue58 said:
separate but under the same control. The point is this time CCFC will be directly involved
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Fisher has made great play lately of distancing CCFC and himself from Sisu and their activities, particularly the legal actions. I wonder how he will try to spin things this time so that he can again claim it's nothing to do with him?
 
What if Fisher is right, SISU is not CCFC and has nothing to do with us?
Imagine if SISU win the JR2 and somehow then eventually gain ownership of the stadium.
Could they then sell the Ricoh to whoever they want but not CCFC, just to right royally fuck us over and disappear back to London/Cayman Islands??
 
fernandopartridge said:
Be fascinating to see whether JR 2 does show that the council were never negotiating with CCFC in good faith. Though I suspect all the early discussions between senior people in ACL / CCC were strictly off the record.
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What negotiations did the council have with SISU for them to be either in or not in good faith? SISU wouldn't negotiate. We don't need JR2 for that answer, we already have it.
 
I was eleven in 87 said:
What if Fisher is right, SISU is not CCFC and has nothing to do with us?
Imagine if SISU win the JR2 and somehow then eventually gain ownership of the stadium.
Could they then sell the Ricoh to whoever they want but not CCFC, just to right royally fuck us over and disappear back to London/Cayman Islands??
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CCFC is listed in the JR interested parties with SISU controlled companies trading as CCFC v CCC/Wasps/Higgs etc.

This sort of blows away Nick`s claim that SISU and CCFC are totally different, not that 95% of fans thought this was the case in the first place and I imagine the 5% of fans who support the owners or only worry about the next match will change there position either.
 
Cov Telegraph. If the Sky Blues are to survive we need the kind of resolve this guy is talking about. It is not going to happen soon

Avatar_empty_x1.png

34 minutes ago
TomMac13
You fans should take a serious look at what you are doing .... SISU are only still here because they get a few thousand complete idiots to put money in their pockets every week .... YES you loyal fans. Who then turn into the biggest bunch of whingers because SISU won't go .... Doh .... Get the message. Stay away.... and I promise you they will go. If YOU don't, THEY won't ! !
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Interesting the Councilor Duggins has said that Sisu have failed to pay the £500k+ costs from JR1.
 
If they haven't paid the fines/costs etc applied by the court then At what point are sisu in contempt of court and in danger of having more serious sanctions applied (possible imprisonment)? I'm not sure if this is the case but does anyone know?


PUSB
 
AFCCOVENTRY said:
Interesting the Councilor Duggins has said that Sisu have failed to pay the £500k+ costs from JR1.
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When are they due? Is it now for JR1 or do the costs roll over to JR2 and they don't have to pay out until the whole thing comes to an end.
 
Gosford Green said:
CCFC is listed in the JR interested parties with SISU controlled companies trading as CCFC v CCC/Wasps/Higgs etc.

This sort of blows away Nick`s claim that SISU and CCFC are totally different, not that 95% of fans thought this was the case in the first place and I imagine the 5% of fans who support the owners or only worry about the next match will change there position either.
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If they are the same why are they joined in along with WASPS & CCC?
 
Gosford Green said:
CCFC is listed in the JR interested parties with SISU controlled companies trading as CCFC v CCC/Wasps/Higgs etc.

This sort of blows away Nick`s claim that SISU and CCFC are totally different, not that 95% of fans thought this was the case in the first place and I imagine the 5% of fans who support the owners or only worry about the next match will change there position either.
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Good point mate, guess I best stop supporting the team then as it means I support SISU.

Might go and write nasty things on the SISU FC players Twitter feeds.
 
Gosford Green said:
CCFC is listed in the JR interested parties with SISU controlled companies trading as CCFC v CCC/Wasps/Higgs etc.

This sort of blows away Nick`s claim that SISU and CCFC are totally different, not that 95% of fans thought this was the case in the first place and I imagine the 5% of fans who support the owners or only worry about the next match will change there position either.
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So by your logic CCC and wasps are the same. Do you think some of our council tax goes to wasps?
 
Gosford Green said:
CCFC is listed in the JR interested parties with SISU controlled companies trading as CCFC v CCC/Wasps/Higgs etc.

This sort of blows away Nick`s claim that SISU and CCFC are totally different, not that 95% of fans thought this was the case in the first place and I imagine the 5% of fans who support the owners or only worry about the next match will change there position either.
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Actually legally they are totally different entities. That point has nothing to do with being pro or anti SISU. It is just a fact

What brings them together is the control that Seppala via SISU Capital Ltd exerts on them. That control does not make SISU and CCFC the same thing but they can act in common interest. Unfortunately that common interest seems dictated by Seppala to be that of her investors not the football club.

In actual fact in law CCFC does not actually exists as anything other than a trading name of Otium Entertainment Group Limited. Otium is just the replacement for the original companies CCFC Ltd & CCFCH Ltd and look where they are now, did SISU blink about that? Those two old companies had much stronger links to the claim of being CCFC dating back decades

What is also unarguable is that Fisher can no longer say that the club is not involved in the legal actions because Otium which trades as the club CCFC is named as a plaintiff and is very much involved.

People have to get their head around the different concepts (a) SISU and CCFC are not the same thing (b) that SISU control SBS&L and Otium. Two very different things and that differential could be key in what is to come.
 
jimmyhillsfanclub said:
I hereby solemnly vow to not get involved in any further threads about fucking J fucking R fucking 2......

can't believe how many hours of my life I wasted reading some of the most mind numbingly boring financial & legal bullshit last time around....

My default position remains this:

Sisu, ACL, CCC, CT & Wasps are all cunts and because of them, CCFC are fucked for the foreseeable future, possibly ever.

.....Carry on.
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Totally agree , In political terms I'm slap bang in the centre.
I despise the lot of them, but I will say one thing and that is , if you feel you have been conned, defrauded or been wronged in any way you have the right to take legal action against the persons or organisations that are involved.
Sisu are cunts full stop but then so are the council who are also guilty of unethical practice along with many half truths or downright untruths.
Wasps are the ones who sneaked in cloak and dagger style to claim a 250 year lease then stand back with a holier than thouh stance. Nobody with half a brain believes this deal was done overnight and in the correct open process it should have been.
If ccc and wasps have nothing to worry about then why not tell us exactly when negotiations started , why break off talks with the club ( some would say a kind of blackmail attempt).
Most of us know jr2 will fail , but I say again if you feel you have been wronged in law then you have every right to do as you see fit.
Personally I'm looking forward to the story AL will put forward.
 
Gosford Green said:
CCFC is listed in the JR interested parties with SISU controlled companies trading as CCFC v CCC/Wasps/Higgs etc.

This sort of blows away Nick`s claim that SISU and CCFC are totally different, not that 95% of fans thought this was the case in the first place and I imagine the 5% of fans who support the owners or only worry about the next match will change there position either.
Click to expand...

So you are saying 95% of our fans are incorrect about something? Worrying.

Using your logic if they were the same thing then CCFC (Otium) wouldn't be listed, as they would just list SISU.

Read OSB's reply, he explained it better minus the sarcasm ;)
 
shmmeee said:
I can safely say the "Are SISU and CCFC the same thing" argument has to be my least favourite on this site. So pointless.
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Isn't really if people kick CCFC thinking they are kicking SISU for example.

I agree, it is a bit tedious when even though OSB and others also say it then it just gets ignored anyway as people aren't interested and just carry on saying things anyway.
 
Nick said:
Isn't really if people kick CCFC thinking they are kicking SISU for example.

I agree, it is a bit tedious when even though OSB and others also say it then it just gets ignored anyway as people aren't interested and just carry on saying things anyway.
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It's just such an arbitrary distinction. They are separate legal entities, but CCFC are owned by Sisu.

Really don't want to get into this, but as I can't resist a tedious argument on semantics, here we go:

Sisu's offices aren't Sisu, they are something that's owned by Sisu. Yet you suggested (IIRC) that gluing the locks at their offices would be a justified protest (as an example, I know you weren't suggesting we do it). But that would be targeting Sisu's property, not Sisu. Similarly attacking their investors isn't Sisu, it's their relationships.

A company is a legal construct, not an actual physical thing. Any protest will inevitably not be "attacking Sisu" but something they own, just like CCFC. Which is why the whole distinction is pointless.

Standard disclaimer that I don't support protests that harm what's going on on the pitch or lead to points deductions, but because I think it loses us the moral high ground rather than because of some pedantic distinction between the two entities. It is my belief that Sisu are fucking things up enough on the pitch to give us a valid complaint, adding to that ourselves muddies those waters.
 
shmmeee said:
It's just such an arbitrary distinction. They are separate legal entities, but CCFC are owned by Sisu.

Really don't want to get into this, but as I can't resist a tedious argument on semantics, here we go:

Sisu's offices aren't Sisu, they are something that's owned by Sisu. Yet you suggested (IIRC) that gluing the locks at their offices would be a justified protest (as an example, I know you weren't suggesting we do it). But that would be targeting Sisu's property, not Sisu. Similarly attacking their investors isn't Sisu, it's their relationships.

A company is a legal construct, not an actual physical thing. Any protest will inevitably not be "attacking Sisu" but something they own, just like CCFC. Which is why the whole distinction is pointless.

Standard disclaimer that I don't support protests that harm what's going on on the pitch or lead to points deductions, but because I think it loses us the moral high ground rather than because of some pedantic distinction between the two entities. It is my belief that Sisu are fucking things up enough on the pitch to give us a valid complaint, adding to that ourselves muddies those waters.
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I gave an example of something that would bother SISU. I understand a lock (and it was a very off the cuff idea) isn't SISU or Joy Seppalla but it was an example of something aimed at SISU directly and causing them inconvenience as SISU (I was asked an example of action against SISU that wasn't CCFC). She openly says she only cares about her investors, which is why action relating to them is suggested over certain things at CCFC and she doesn't care about that ;)

Plus, unless people claim to be lifelong fans of those locks at SISU and being angry about their upkeep then it's completely different than it being CCFC if they stuck a bit of glue in :)
 
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Nick said:
So you are saying 95% of our fans are incorrect about something? Worrying.

Using your logic if they were the same thing then CCFC (Otium) wouldn't be listed, as they would just list SISU.

Read OSB's reply, he explained it better minus the sarcasm ;)
Click to expand...

Splitting hairs as you will do when on the back foot. CCFC are named in the JR, the companies who are trading as CCFC have bought the action against CCC and Wasps are all controlled by SISU, stand in the away end at stadium MK and try to persuade fans that the club and SISU are separate entities and they are protesting at the wrong places. They are the ones that matter, the fans that go not faceless user names like me, OSB and yousrelf. I know 2 people in the real world who are buying a season ticket next year, I can think of 30 who are not buying one as they see it as giving money to SISU, the company structure OSB pointed out means nothing to 95% of supporters. Good luck if you ever try to point it out that they are wrong.

SISU have the ability to stop this and secure the clubs future no one else.

Anyway, what is your veiw on this JR, a good thing or a bad thing for CCFC?
 
Nick said:
I gave an example of something that would bother SISU. I understand a lock (and it was a very off the cuff idea) isn't SISU or Joy Seppalla but it was an example of something aimed at SISU directly and causing them inconvenience as SISU (I was asked an example of action against SISU that wasn't CCFC). She openly says she only cares about her investors, which is why action relating to them is suggested over certain things at CCFC and she doesn't care about that ;)

Plus, unless people claim to be lifelong fans of those locks at SISU and being angry about their upkeep then it's completely different than it being CCFC if they stuck a bit of glue in :)
Click to expand...

She also said she was really excited about building a new stadium, would us blockading that if it ever happened be fair game then?

Honestly, I really can't be arsed with this argument, just saying that I thought it was an arbitrary distinction.
 
So, on topic: what was the time from start to finish on the last JR?

Asking because surely if this goes past Brexit the ECJ won't have power over the UK at that point and state aid rules probably won't apply. Or does it still count for cases started before Brexit?

Edit: I know this is not the ECJ, but they were referenced by Sisu last time.
 
Gosford Green said:
Splitting hairs as you will do when on the back foot. CCFC are named in the JR, the companies who are trading as CCFC have bought the action against CCC and Wasps are all controlled by SISU, stand in the away end at stadium MK and try to persuade fans that the club and SISU are separate entities and they are protesting at the wrong places. They are the ones that matter, the fans that go not faceless user names like me, OSB and yousrelf. I know 2 people in the real world who are buying a season ticket next year, I can think of 30 who are not buying one as they see it as giving money to SISU, the company structure OSB pointed out means nothing to 95% of supporters. Good luck if you ever try to point it out that they are wrong.

SISU have the ability to stop this and secure the clubs future no one else.

Anyway, what is your veiw on this JR, a good thing or a bad thing for CCFC?
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It isn't splitting hairs and there is no back foot, because they aren't the same thing.

So if they are the same thing why do they need to be named? Why can't they just say "SISU" and that includes CCFC (Otium) if they are the same?

There's not really much point in trying to point things out to people, they don't give a shit about the facts which is worrying isn't it? If 95% of people believe something which is actually incorrect then how do they work out action that is going to be effective against the right people? Maybe people should listen to people like OSB whether they agree with them or not, rather than just dismiss it straight off?

I can't see SISU winning this one either, the only "good" thing that may come out of it is more information about what went on but that's not going to really get anybody anywhere. I said months (probably years now) when there was a poll that I thought it would be pointless.
 
shmmeee said:
So, on topic: what was the time from start to finish on the last JR?

Asking because surely if this goes past Brexit the ECJ won't have power over the UK at that point and state aid rules probably won't apply. Or does it still count for cases started before Brexit?
Click to expand...

I "think" it was said if it was started pre brexit? Maybe thats why they got it in early.
 
Sky Blue Kid said:
If you look closely it has a little "v" between CCFC/SISU and CCC/Wasps.... That little "v" means VERSUS.
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CCFC is listed in the JR interested parties with SISU controlled companies trading as CCFC v CCC/Wasps/Higgs etc.
But that makes them a complainant ( or whatever the word is ) not just an "interested party" ?
 
Nick i realise SISU and CCFC are different companies but who is it that controls CCFC and who makes the desisions on budgets ect ect??
 
Sub said:
Nick i realise SISU and CCFC are different companies but who is it that controls CCFC and who makes the desisions on budgets ect ect??
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Yes, but my point about them being different is about care and damage with action.

It's a bit like punching the girl on the checkout because you aren't happy with the big boss.

They are separated off, if CCFC go bust tomorrow it doesn't mean SISU will. It will all be ringfenced off, they will just stroll off to other investments as if nothing has happened. Joy has her money, Dermot has his money.

That's my point when I say about them being different. Just because somebody can control something, it doesn't mean that if that something gets blown up that the person controlling it would be damaged in the slightest does it?
 
If CCFC did a Leicester and in 5-6 years time under the same ownership, won the Premiership, would SISU benefit from it?

If so surly when being hit by lack of attendance they must also take the hit?? Stand corrected if I'm wrong
 
Nick said:
It isn't splitting hairs and there is no back foot, because they aren't the same thing.

So if they are the same thing why do they need to be named? Why can't they just say "SISU" and that includes CCFC (Otium) if they are the same?

There's not really much point in trying to point things out to people, they don't give a shit about the facts which is worrying isn't it? If 95% of people believe something which is actually incorrect then how do they work out action that is going to be effective against the right people? Maybe people should listen to people like OSB whether they agree with them or not, rather than just dismiss it straight off?

I can't see SISU winning this one either, the only "good" thing that may come out of it is more information about what went on but that's not going to really get anybody anywhere. I said months (probably years now) when there was a poll that I thought it would be pointless.
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You are missing the point. I can decide if it's stupidity, arrogance or the need to keep the hits on this web site.

I am a director of 2 companies, if I fall out with customers trading as co 1 and then try and sell them services under the other company saying that co 1 and co2 are not linked it would not swallow as I control both companies.
SISU control all the companies listed by OSB, fan's are aware who controls the club.
 
Nick said:
Yes, but my point about them being different is about care and damage with action.

It's a bit like punching the girl on the checkout because you aren't happy with the big boss.



They are separated off, if CCFC go bust tomorrow it doesn't mean SISU will. It will all be ringfenced off, they will just stroll off to other investments as if nothing has happened. Joy has her money, Dermot has his money.

That's my point when I say about them being different. Just because somebody can control something, it doesn't mean that if that something gets blown up that the person controlling it would be damaged in the slightest does it?
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ok i see what your saying Just another question

What would happen if AVRo or Sisu went bust ? what would happen to CCFC ?
 
ricohroar said:
If CCFC did a Leicester and in 5-6 years time under the same ownership, won the Premiership, would SISU benefit from it?

If so surly when being hit by lack of attendance they must also take the hit?? Stand corrected if I'm wrong
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No, because they have ringfenced it off to rot away in the corner out of the way as to not bother them as it isn't doing anything. They wouldn't take the hit, CCFC would as the outgoings just get slashed to suit.

If suddenly there was hundreds of millions, then it would be a different story wouldn't it.
 
I see so its part of CCFC when its doing well? but not when not?
 
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