The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (12 Viewers)

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .

Grendel

Well-Known Member
We should listen to the 38% leavers, but you don't want to listen to the 48% remainers in the UK. They have to move on because it is democracy.

Good here isn't it?

Democracy means the U.K. Referendum is binding
 

Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
We should listen to the 38% leavers, but you don't want to listen to the 48% remainers in the UK. They have to move on because it is democracy.

Good here isn't it?

Who said I don't want to listen to them? Or are you still in denial over a democratic result?

There is a winner and a loser. There are no draws. Remain lost I'm pleased to say but then we make a brexit Britain for everyone not just 52% who voted for it.
 

wingy

Well-Known Member
What about all the leave voters in Scotland as there were 38% of people wanted to leave the eu which is over a million votes? Do we not listen to them?

Interestingly only 1.6m voted for remain in Scotland so a difference of just 600k. Over double that won for leave in the whole referendum it's worth noting. So maybe the gap isn't as big in Scotland as they would like you to think.
I make that 24% as against 4% in ours.
If only they'd hadn't been persuaded to stay first time round, along with London which is like a Principality out on its own anyway, the margin for leave would have been respectively wide enough to kill this debate.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Who said I don't want to listen to them? Or are you still in denial over a democratic result?

There is a winner and a loser. There are no draws. Remain lost I'm pleased to say but then we make a brexit Britain for everyone not just 52% who voted for it.

You have told me enough times to move on and join your club. I was never in denial of a small margin. You don't seem to get the possibility that there can be 2 losers here. One the remainers, and two the UK because of the result. No-one wins.
 

Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
You have told me enough times to move on and join your club. I was never in denial of a small margin. You don't seem to get the possibility that there can be 2 losers here. One the remainers, and two the UK because of the result. No-one wins.

Join what club?
 

Sick Boy

Well-Known Member
A question for you.

If some regions of Scotland vote to stay in the uk but the total vote goes 51% in favour of leaving - should those areas be allowed to remain in the UK?

The Highlands and Islands for example?

If they so wish, I would push for a London and Brighton & Hove alliance and stop funding the leaching leave areas. *

* just following the tone of some on this thread.
 

Sick Boy

Well-Known Member
We should listen to the 38% leavers, but you don't want to listen to the 48% remainers in the UK. They have to move on because it is democracy.

Good here isn't it?

I had the misfortune to click upon an article in the Brexiteers' mouthpiece, The Mail, by the vile Katie Hopkins. She described Sadiq Kahn as the mayor of Londonistan.

That along with their piece about 'an openly gay ex Olympic fencer (shock horror) tells you all you need to know.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
What's wrong with that? Shouldn't we all come together after the vote and make brexit work for everyone?

Problem being people have different views on what Brexit is - e.g. hard Brexit, soft Brexit and treatment of EU citizens already here.

We are not going to come together because of our differing opinions on the way forward. Brexit has hardly united the U.K.. In fact we now have more reasons not to come together. Before, we had left and right and party diffences - now Brexit crosses those lines and we have diffences within left and right and parties over Brexit.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Thought this was an interesting take on the right of citizens to remain argument: What the row over European citizens reveals about Theresa May

Without some kind of associate membership of the European Union, which Theresa May has ruled out, it is difficult to see what meaningful EU-wide deal for British citizens would look like. After Brexit, Brits abroad will have different rights if they live in France to if they lived in Poland, just as people from everywhere outside the European Union do.

In terms of protecting the rights of British citizens abroad, the countries which make up the bulk of the EU citizens with rights to protect here in the UK are from the eastern bloc and Portugal. The countries where British citizens live in great numbers are Spain, France and Ireland. The rights of British citizens in Ireland are already guaranteed by obligations that exceed the lifetime of Britain’s EU membership anyway. No government in France is going to be particularly moved to treat British citizens better because of how Britain treats or mistreats Polish citizens working in Britain.



Democracy means the U.K. Referendum is binding

No, politics means it's binding. Democracy means it's advisory.
 

scubasteve

Well-Known Member
To be honest I think there is a big difference between what brexit voters wanted and Wilders in Holland, its a bit of a silly comparison. But if you think a far right party coming 2nd gaining 5 extra seats, to a centre right party is good for the left or the EU, then you are very misguided.
 

Sick Boy

Well-Known Member
The rise of the far right is not good for Europe as a whole, not just the EU. As before though, they will eventually be back on the fringes as we managed once before.

Little appears to be said about the odious Farage interviewing and effectively promoting the leader of the French National Front.

It is bizarre that not being happy wit Brexit, Brexiteers seem determined to see the break up of the entire EU.
 

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
Which British Brexiteers have said that they want to break up the whole EU? Who has said that they want the far right to gain power in Europe?
 

scubasteve

Well-Known Member
just more labelling, anyone who voted leave must be far right, and want whole of Europe to break up. Its the EU that wants to control Europe and all its members not people who voted to leave, they want the opposite.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
just more labelling, anyone who voted leave must be far right, and want whole of Europe to break up. Its the EU that wants to control Europe and all its members not people who voted to leave, they want the opposite.

Are you implying that no leavers are far right, or that none of them expect or want a breakup of the EU? You may not, but many are and do.

Are you saying that 28, or 27 European nations want to control Europe as a group? If so that is not unusual or undesirable. Who else would you suggest? Trump USA or Putin's Russia? Or do you simply want the EU to break up?
 

scubasteve

Well-Known Member
Are you implying that no leavers are far right, or that none of them expect or want a breakup of the EU? You may not, but many are and do.

Are you saying that 28, or 27 European nations want to control Europe as a group? If so that is not unusual or undesirable. Who else would you suggest? Trump USA or Putin's Russia? Or do you simply want the EU to break up?

Of course im not saying there are no far right leave voters, just like im sure there are lefties who voted leave, doesn't make them the populous or to label anyone else who believes leaving the EU has far right opinions like wilders in Holland. That's the thing I don't see things as black and white and I don't label people one way or the other people can mix and match their opinions. im not the one who was getting excited like sick boy this morning because a far right movement increased there seats in Holland's government by 33% now 2nd in the country, as a victory for Europe and brexiters would be disappointed.

im not that bothered its the decision on each and every country who they want to govern them, who am I to have an opinion on if France, Holland should stay or leave the EU. People who voted leave wanted Britons choice on their country, if that's the case in another country so be it, if not the same.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Of course im not saying there are no far right leave voters, just like im sure there are lefties who voted leave, doesn't make them the populous or to label anyone else who believes leaving the EU has far right opinions like wilders in Holland. That's the thing I don't see things as black and white and I don't label people one way or the other people can mix and match their opinions. im not the one who was getting excited like sick boy this morning because a far right movement increased there seats in Holland's government by 33% now 2nd in the country, as a victory for Europe and brexiters would be disappointed.

im not that bothered its the decision on each and every country who they want to govern them, who am I to have an opinion on if France, Holland should stay or leave the EU. People who voted leave wanted Britons choice on their country, if that's the case in another country so be it, if not the same.

How many mich percentage did Wilders get in the end? I don't know yet. About 13%? Which would mean that the established parties got 87% between them.

Extreme right didn't really come anywhere near power.

What was the percentage increase for the greens? I think they are much happier than Wilders.

Wilders thought he would get a lot more and be the number one.

I think that people look at what the right actually does when it gets power. The people have not taken their country back in the USA or Britain - not to mention the situation in Russia and Turkey.

Populist slogans are easily lapped up, but the reality at the end is quite a different thing.
 

scubasteve

Well-Known Member
How many mich percentage did Wilders get in the end? I don't know yet. About 13%? Which would mean that the established parties got 87% between them.

Extreme right didn't really come anywhere near power.

What was the percentage increase for the greens? I think they are much happier than Wilders.

Wilders thought he would get a lot more and be the number one.

I think that people look at what the right actually does when it gets power. The people have not taken their country back in the USA or Britain - not to mention the situation in Russia and Turkey.

Populist slogans are easily lapped up, but the reality at the end is quite a different thing.

but again what has the far right got to do with brexit? voting to leave does not make anyone far right or support anything the far right believes in. To put the 2 together is just wrong, a tactic people use to try and discredit anyone that believes that the EU doesn't work for this country as far right.
 

dutchman

Well-Known Member
How many mich percentage did Wilders get in the end? I don't know yet. About 13%? Which would mean that the established parties got 87% between them.

Extreme right didn't really come anywhere near power.

What was the percentage increase for the greens? I think they are much happier than Wilders.

Wilders thought he would get a lot more and be the number one.

I think that people look at what the right actually does when it gets power. The people have not taken their country back in the USA or Britain - not to mention the situation in Russia and Turkey.

Populist slogans are easily lapped up, but the reality at the end is quite a different thing.

The current ruling party in Holland was considered 'far right' at one time! It actually lost seats last night but retains power. Before last night I wouldn't describe the Green-Left as being one of the 'established parties'. They did phenomenally well last night, boosted by the Islamic vote. Labour's vote completely collapsed, largely as a result of their failure to oppose austerity measures.

Wilders vote increased, but not by as much as the media had led everyone to believe. His views on immigration and the €uro are shared by many Dutch voters across the political spectrum. Wilders won in Rotterdam which was the scene of recent ethnic rioting.

The Christian Democrats did well after re-positioning themselves to the right, much how the British Liberal-Democrats did just before the 2010 election.

Overall there was a shift from established centre parties to both right and left.
 
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