But then it was badly-managed, was loosing money, and had no tenant.
Another Gilbert tease. (29 Viewers)
- Thread starter Captain Dart
- Start date
You can pay off your mortgage then?
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Poor analogy. The bond is a bit like an interest only mortgage rather than a repayment one.
It still doesn't make them insolvent though does it?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Yes as the valuation was projected not actual. As part of the bond agreement there were supposed to have another valuation. To my knowledge that hasn't happened.
Astute
Well-Known Member
It will make them homeless if they can't afford to pay for it. Not exactly solvent is it?
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
It makes them reliant on borrowing to exist, but I suppose that is the way in the age of credit.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
I think we all knew this. May I add that wasps have a good team and aren't they top? Europe?
What about when the bubble bursts and a few people don't go anymore.
Trouble is they will find a way out of it so expect them to still be here past 2022 sadly.
What about when the bubble bursts and a few people don't go anymore.
Trouble is they will find a way out of it so expect them to still be here past 2022 sadly.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Never was going to be paid back in full at the end of term except by borrowing from somewhere else, anyone know what commercial rates are like on deals like that?
I notice Richardson is propping Wasps up, I've said several times before he would. Others have questioned his ability to find the money but I think he has up to £10M available, that will see them out till the bond scheme completes.
Both CCFC & Wasps are turning their finances round, but in very different ways.
I notice Richardson is propping Wasps up, I've said several times before he would. Others have questioned his ability to find the money but I think he has up to £10M available, that will see them out till the bond scheme completes.
Both CCFC & Wasps are turning their finances round, but in very different ways.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Glad this thread has stayed here. Never really did see the point of having a separate Wasps section.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Nothing new to see in this article, it was analysed by a number of people on this site about 3 weeks ago and Mr Carvells comments by and large agree with that. Much better analysis from him on this than the one he did for CCFC imo.
As for the headline - who writes these at the CT? - misleading surely most people realised that Wasps would need to refinance. We have discussed that on this site since 2015. The headline makes it seem like it is imminent - it isn't. They can choose to refinance from 2019 onwards but have to probably refinance by May 2022. Refinance could be another bond, a loan or even floating the company as a PLC. Plenty of options
Given the background of the people in charge at Wasps, then if we can see the need to refinance it is reasonable to think this is something they have planned for. So hardly a shock
The immediate problem for Wasps is meeting the bond covenant conditions each year. These underpin the bond itself. They need to increase operating profits, that will mean recovering or driving down costs as well as increasing income. Getting a sponsor signed up would of course help with achieving the necessary levels.
Are Wasps insolvent - no. Can it meet its liabilities as it falls due - no evidence they can not. Do they have financial support of the owners - it would seem so. They appear to have equity available in their fixed assets. It would seem they have the ability to source finance. Cash flow is tight there is an expectation of improvement in 2nd six months
Bond price - doesn't represent a valuation of the company as such - provides an indication of what investors think of the risk, amongst other things. When results last six months came out 28/02/17 101p now currently 104p. No panic about repayment there it would seem
The article that is of most interest to CCFC fans in the last 24 hours is not this one, I doubt other news outlets have been clamouring for this story as claimed
As for the headline - who writes these at the CT? - misleading surely most people realised that Wasps would need to refinance. We have discussed that on this site since 2015. The headline makes it seem like it is imminent - it isn't. They can choose to refinance from 2019 onwards but have to probably refinance by May 2022. Refinance could be another bond, a loan or even floating the company as a PLC. Plenty of options
Given the background of the people in charge at Wasps, then if we can see the need to refinance it is reasonable to think this is something they have planned for. So hardly a shock
The immediate problem for Wasps is meeting the bond covenant conditions each year. These underpin the bond itself. They need to increase operating profits, that will mean recovering or driving down costs as well as increasing income. Getting a sponsor signed up would of course help with achieving the necessary levels.
Are Wasps insolvent - no. Can it meet its liabilities as it falls due - no evidence they can not. Do they have financial support of the owners - it would seem so. They appear to have equity available in their fixed assets. It would seem they have the ability to source finance. Cash flow is tight there is an expectation of improvement in 2nd six months
Bond price - doesn't represent a valuation of the company as such - provides an indication of what investors think of the risk, amongst other things. When results last six months came out 28/02/17 101p now currently 104p. No panic about repayment there it would seem
The article that is of most interest to CCFC fans in the last 24 hours is not this one, I doubt other news outlets have been clamouring for this story as claimed
Last edited:
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
only here don because everyone thought it would be something to do with CCFC - it isnt
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Are they Wankers because they only get 6.5% and their money back when the bond is reissued or because they could have got 10% with SISU/CCFC and no chance of there money back ?
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
They're wankers because they shouldn't be here.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
I know, it isn't and it hasn't been moved. Which I think is good, personally.
There are some people on this site who think that SISU are killing time waiting for Wasps to have to sell the Ricoh.
So personally I think any stories such as this still have a relevance here and people choose to read them or not.
I also think when Wasps are doing something marketing or promotions wise that we are not it's worth going on here and discussing as well. Whether CCFC should be doing the same or not.
Nick
Administrator
Why are you making out they get deleted or moved to a different site? It goes to a sub forum FFS.
The first 2 years of "interest" was paid by the original investors themselves
A sum was set aside from the initial funding to make the payments
Until the investors sell their bonds or they are repaid they have actually not received those 2 years interest payments
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Not really the same is it? It would be like buying a house for £250K and the bank giving you a £2m mortgage!
We know lots of businesses survive on credit but a lot also go out of business and nobody knows how things will stand when they need to renew the bonds, will be interesting if they fail to meet the conditions of the bonds and the valuation, and lack of the required second valuation, has never sat well with me.
Its certainly not Wasps about to go out of business but it would be naïve to suggest its all plain sailing for them.
This is why its in Wasps advantage to suppress CCFC. Increase costs at the Ricoh alongside a poorer matchday experience is of benefit to Wasps. In the unlikely event we got back to the Championship or PL it would inevitably have an impact on Wasps both in terms of attendance and local sponsors.
All this makes me wonder what will be revealed next. The two most recent articles from the CT don't really sit with the message they have been pushing for the last couple of years - why the change?
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
That's not a financial answer though.
Financially they are better off here than Wycombe, surely ?
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Not making out anything. That's exactly what I mean the sub forum FFS.
Much better off having it here in the main section where everyone reads.
As long as it in someway may affect CCFC. Such as Wasps accounts, sponsorship deals marketing ideas that CCFC could use. Especially those who think Wasps will go bust and we are waiting in the wings to pick up the pieces.
I get news about Wasps scores or who they sign not been here.
Nick
Administrator
Yes, it goes to a sub forum on the same site. If people want to read it they will. It's how forums work.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
More people will be on this today discussing it, than if you knew beforehand and tucked it away in the sub forum.
I accept a lot of the discussion is on Gilbert's build up. However more discussion is now stimulated and us about the actual finances.
If this was known to be about the finances and Wasps straight away and put in the sub section, there will be many who would not even know it is there.
Nick
Administrator
Yes, and that's the whole idea of sections of a forum. The same as off topic stuff goes in off topic and other football goes in that section.
Probably stick to waffling on about Robins.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Zzzzzzzzz
skybluebeduff
Well-Known Member
Terry Gibson's perm
Well-Known Member
As the chief says they are making the matchday experience poor with over zealous stewards etc, the biggest problem for The London team would be us getting into the higher leagues as nobody would be interested in their little pastime, luckily for them we have Sisu helping them drive the experience down as well.
Moff
Well-Known Member
Unless Financial markets give it a low (poor rating) as a risk to get your money back and then people will invest elsewhere. Have seen it happen and follow these events with my onw investments. You will try to bat this off, but if its the case it doesn't bode well for Wasps...... Good!
Moff
Well-Known Member
Depends on the debt. Depends if they can pay it back.
Getting low attendances but being solvent is better than a big shiny stadium, loads of free tickets and tacky flags and being insolvent, isn't it.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Yes loving watching CCFC at the moment and hating watching Wasps
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Moff
Well-Known Member
Yes loving watching CCFC at the moment and hating watching Wasps
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Nicely side stepped the Wycombe Wasps and Coventry Wasps analogy there
Astute
Well-Known Member
Depends which way you look at it.
It was better for Richardson. He took 10m out of the money raised from what he had loaned to Wasps. But they were much closer to their own supporters. And was it costing them 2m in interest alone each year? On top of that it is losing them money. In 2022 they will still owe what they owe now after paying 2m a year.
It might be theirs. But they still need to pay for it.
Astute
Well-Known Member
I don't hate watching Wasps. I will never waste my money watching them.Yes loving watching CCFC at the moment and hating watching Wasps
RegTheDonk
Well-Known Member
Don't understand the finances one bit...but if they can't pay now and have to re-finance at some point, when they are currently aruguably the best side in the country in their particular field, what hope have they for a bright future? Surely in stature and standing, the amount of people supporting them and buying their merchandise, it can't get much better than it currently is?