How is the club worth more (4 Viewers)

[smileycov]

Structures are here
Sky Blue Trust - CCFC Company and Group Structures

Otium which trades as CCFC owe ARVO 12.4 in loans and interest. In addition to the ownership ordinary voting shares there are preference shares issued in Otium totalling 65m which are owned by ARVO 15m and SBS& L 50m (in round figures) - these shares are in reality clever accounting and worthless

SBS&L owes its investors 28m. (Otium does not owe SBS&L £28m which is a problem for SISU)

So, do they need to offer to clear the 12.4m or the 28m to make it saleable?

 

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[MatthewWallis]

Any deal would have to include either wiping the debts or paying a significant portion of them at least I would have thought. Serious question, is there anything stopping SISU selling the club to lets say Hoffman, and then immediately calling in the debts for what's owed to them? Probably wouldn't do that because they know the club hasnt really got any money to pay it but could get a winding up order issued once they don't own it anymore as a big final up yours to the fans

 

[Nick]

Any deal would have to include either wiping the debts or paying a significant portion of them at least I would have thought. Serious question, is there anything stopping SISU selling the club to lets say Hoffman, and then immediately calling in the debts for what's owed to them? Probably wouldn't do that because they know the club hasnt really got any money to pay it but could get a winding up order issued once they don't own it anymore as a big final up yours to the fans

Surely the buyer would sort that at the same time?

 

[oldskyblue58]

What Hoffman is doing is not bidding for either company. He is picking and choosing the assets & liabilities he takes on. He doesn't want any of the ARVO debt or the preference shares in Otium and the £28m is isolated in SBS&L a company he has no interest in acquiring at all. Out of choice he would only take the assets but FA /EFL do not permit you to not honour what they call "football debt"

That's the point really he isn't directly settling any of the borrowings up front and is providing a future promise of something or may be nothing

That is quite clearly going to be a problem for SISU & ARVO. For any deal to work then from their point of view the outstanding loans, especially ARVO, need to be dealt with by something more substantial than a promise to pay 50% of sales or transfers that may never happen

 

[chiefdave]

Any deal would have to include either wiping the debts or paying a significant portion of them at least I would have thought. Serious question, is there anything stopping SISU selling the club to lets say Hoffman, and then immediately calling in the debts for what's owed to them?

That's why he's not trying to buy the club, he's just trying to buy the assets he wants. So he takes what we would class as the football club (golden share, players, Ryton) and places those assets in a new company leave behind Otium and the debt.

Edit: Or just ignore this and read OSB above explaining it better!

 

[Paxman II]

You are looking at it from your view though. See it through their eyes and you trust yourself to turn it round. At the end of the day, these people have had success in business before and have massive ego's, so will back themselves to get a return whether we think they are right or wrong. They won't currently see this as a downward spiral as they have moved the club to a position where it is not making a loss. This for them is making things better. The relegation doesn't help them though, so now is hopefully a good time to strike with a decent offer. They over value the club though (which is there right as owners) so will need a good offer.

What if there is a promotion charge in league 2? Do you not think they would make a profit? Crowds would increase on that wave of optimism for sure. They have manoeuvered things around shall we say and are treading water, so any successes will be beneficial. So if you own the rights to a football club with strong history and a fan base as large as it has would you not then be looking for something more than a back hander if we reach the championship or beyond with a cut in player sales as a selling price? They could have sold Stevenson but didn't...what's his worth as a league 2 player now rarely even in the side? Too much subjection in the offer from Hoffman's gang and a complete non starter.
Sorry but Hoffman's fishing for some reason or he really is quite stupid.

 

[Nick]

What Hoffman is doing is not bidding for either company. He is picking and choosing the assets & liabilities he takes on. He doesn't want any of the ARVO debt or the preference shares in Otium and the £28m is isolated in SBS&L a company he has no interest in acquiring at all. Out of choice he would only take the assets but FA /EFL do not permit you to not honour what they call "football debt"

That's the point really he isn't directly settling any of the borrowings up front and is providing a future promise of something or may be nothing

That is quite clearly going to be a problem for SISU & ARVO. For any deal to work then from their point of view the outstanding loans, especially ARVO, need to be dealt with by something more substantial than a promise to pay 50% of sales or transfers that may never happen

Surely Hoffman would know that it's a bit of a non starter?

 

[Paxman II]

So no difference to what's happening now then? Except that is that they might actually get something in a few years time

You would be a nice person to deal with if you had something to sell...I wouldn't need any money up front and you would trust to the fact I'll follow through and pay you later. That's alright then, deal done! Do you have a house for sale?

 

[oldskyblue58]

you would think so Nick...... but on the other hand if you don't ask you don't get as they say

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What Hoffman is doing is not bidding for either company. He is picking and choosing the assets & liabilities he takes on. He doesn't want any of the ARVO debt or the preference shares in Otium and the £28m is isolated in SBS&L a company he has no interest in acquiring at all. Out of choice he would only take the assets but FA /EFL do not permit you to not honour what they call "football debt"

That's the point really he isn't directly settling any of the borrowings up front and is providing a future promise of something or may be nothing

That is quite clearly going to be a problem for SISU & ARVO. For any deal to work then from their point of view the outstanding loans, especially ARVO, need to be dealt with by something more substantial than a promise to pay 50% of sales or transfers that may never happen

I find the whole setup of the bid... curious.

It seems to be a lose/lose.

Our owners won't be keen as it's a promise of nothing.

If, however, it were something, it would handicap our club going forward, to a degree potentially more than at present, as we'd be giving away the jackpot that would allow the foundations to be rebuilt.

Therefore... I have to ask, just why this particular bid has been made, in this way? What purpose does it serve?

 

[Paxman II]

What Hoffman is doing is not bidding for either company. He is picking and choosing the assets & liabilities he takes on. He doesn't want any of the ARVO debt or the preference shares in Otium and the £28m is isolated in SBS&L a company he has no interest in acquiring at all. Out of choice he would only take the assets but FA /EFL do not permit you to not honour what they call "football debt"

That's the point really he isn't directly settling any of the borrowings up front and is providing a future promise of something or may be nothing

That is quite clearly going to be a problem for SISU & ARVO. For any deal to work then from their point of view the outstanding loans, especially ARVO, need to be dealt with by something more substantial than a promise to pay 50% of sales or transfers that may never happen

Exactly!

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

You would be a nice person to deal with if you had something to sell...I wouldn't need any money up front and you would trust to the fact I'll follow through and pay you later. That's alright then, deal done! Do you have a house for sale?

The investments that I've got are worth ten times what I paid for them, so no I wouldn't be a nice person to deal with.

 

[Nick]

Therefore... I have to ask, just why this particular bid has been made, in this way? What purpose does it serve?

On the face of it without any information with just the headlines it looks good. Especially when it's paired with "SISU only paid £1".

 

[Esoterica]

I find the whole setup of the bid... curious.

It seems to be a lose/lose.

Our owners won't be keen as it's a promise of nothing.

If, however, it were something, it would handicap our club going forward, to a degree potentially more than at present, as we'd be giving away the jackpot that would allow the foundations to be rebuilt.

Therefore... I have to ask, just why this particular bid has been made, in this way? What purpose does it serve?

If it wasn't just dipping a toe in the water to see how ready to sell SISU are then I'm struggling to see that it served any purpose other than a PR stunt as the terms offered were always going to be derisory from SISU's point of view.

 

[oldskyblue58]

On the face of it without any information with just the headlines it looks good. Especially when it's paired with "SISU only paid £1".

or bad when compared to the "£70m investment" at the other end of the reporting spectrum......... neither comparison being helpful, useful, factual or correct

 

[Nick]

or bad when compared to the "£70m investment" at the other end of the reporting spectrum......... neither comparison being helpful, useful, factual or correct

Exactly.

Not sure why they haven't got any of the "experts" they draft in to work out the real debt and then break it down simply for people to understand.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

or bad when compared to the "£70m investment" at the other end of the reporting spectrum......... neither comparison being helpful, useful, factual or correct

I don't disagree with that.

I don't, really, even expect a newspaper to do the in-depth analyses you do, but ome things are a little... extreme and provocative, atm.

 

[Nick]

I don't disagree with that.

I don't, really, even expect a newspaper to do the in-depth analyses you do, but ome things are a little... extreme and provocative, atm.

It's the perfect time for a freelance journo to nip in and be in the middle and just report facts.

 

[torchomatic]

On the face of it without any information with just the headlines it looks good. Especially when it's paired with "SISU only paid £1".

And even better if you don't ask questions and just say "Brilliant deal. It's Gary Hoffman ain't it? He's a fan you know. Stop questioning the bid you SISU lover, etc".

 

[SkyblueBazza]

What Hoffman is doing is not bidding for either company. He is picking and choosing the assets & liabilities he takes on. He doesn't want any of the ARVO debt or the preference shares in Otium and the £28m is isolated in SBS&L a company he has no interest in acquiring at all. Out of choice he would only take the assets but FA /EFL do not permit you to not honour what they call "football debt"

That's the point really he isn't directly settling any of the borrowings up front and is providing a future promise of something or may be nothing

That is quite clearly going to be a problem for SISU & ARVO. For any deal to work then from their point of view the outstanding loans, especially ARVO, need to be dealt with by something more substantial than a promise to pay 50% of sales or transfers that may never happen

To me this points to one of two things: -

1. Their own tangled, clever-cock web constructed with the administrator's collusion has caught up with them...they can't afford to sell
2. There is something which makes it attractive to them/their investors in keeping saddled with the debt - the structure they have created makes it virtually impossible to get a good deal from buying the club

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[Nick]

To me this points to one of two things: -

1. Their own tangled, clever-cock web constructed with the administrator's collusion has caught up with them...they can't afford to sell
2. There is something which makes it attractive to them/their investors in keeping saddled with the debt - the structure they have created makes it virtually impossible to get a good deal from buying the club

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They don't have to sell, they will just cut costs until it ticks over and breaks even on it's own.

1,000 ST sales, they will just slash budgets accordingly or sell players.

 

[Godiva]

It's the perfect time for a freelance journo to nip in and be in the middle and just report facts.

Hmm - facts alone are just 'dots'. We need someone who can connect the dots.

Not long ago reports of mediation popped up - that's a dot. Then loud pleas not to buy ST's - that's another dot. Now this take-over offer - that's the latest dot.
Do the dots connect?

 

[Nick]

Hmm - facts alone are just 'dots'. We need someone who can connect the dots.

Not long ago reports of mediation popped up - that's a dot. Then loud pleas not to buy ST's - that's another dot. Now this take-over offer - that's the latest dot.
Do the dots connect?

There are plenty of dots and plenty of co-incidences aren't there?

 

[Godiva]

There are plenty of dots and plenty of co-incidences aren't there?

There are indeed.
Early 2012 - CCFC and ACL agree a roadmap for CCFC to acquire half ACL. Summer 2012 negotitiations break down. Summer 2012 Wasps starts talking to ACL.
Do the dots connect? Co-incidence? Where were Hoffman then?

 

[Sub]

They don't have to sell, they will just cut costs until it ticks over and breaks even on it's own.

1,000 ST sales, they will just slash budgets accordingly or sell players.

You can only cut cost till you go bust. If you dont invest you get less customers less money. At some point they will have to sell or put money in becsuse the customer base is constantly reducing to a point where there will not be enough money to pay rent,bills, wages ect. Then what ??

 

[MatthewWallis]

Surely the buyer would sort that at the same time?

Well yeah I imagine they would, I just didn't know if there was such a scenario where that could happen

 

[Houdi]

They don't have to sell, they will just cut costs until it ticks over and breaks even on it's own.

1,000 ST sales, they will just slash budgets accordingly or sell players.

A slashed budget will invariably weaken the side,which will drive even more fans away. I'm not sure there will be a queue of clubs clamouring to sign players ,who helped get us relegated weeks before the season's end. But the biggest weakness for SISU, is we still don't have a ground to play at,in just over 12 months. The clock is ticking,and they can't put this issue off for very much longer.

 

[Captain Dart]

I find the whole setup of the bid... curious.

Opening gambit.

 

[Captain Dart]

They don't have to sell, they will just cut costs until it ticks over and breaks even on it's own.

1,000 ST sales, they will just slash budgets accordingly or sell players.

They will end up not being 'the only game in town' if they take that attitude for too long.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

They don't have to sell, they will just cut costs until it ticks over and breaks even on it's own.

1,000 ST sales, they will just slash budgets accordingly or sell players.

Exactly...they don't want to sell for a reason. The only other thing I can possibly think of is the ongoing court case over the Ricoh

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[Nick]

Exactly...they don't want to sell for a reason. The only other thing I can possibly think of is the ongoing court case over the Ricoh

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or because the offer isn't very good

 

[shmmeee]

or because the offer isn't very good

But why though?

What's the point in making the bid, unless it's a hail Mary play, but if it's a hail Mary, why triple the bid after the first one.

As ever with our club, none of it makes much sense.

Occam's Razor would suggest decent if naive people trying to buy the club, and two papers with a grudge playing their side as they do. I'm not sure how Hoffman gains from a joke bid otherwise.