oucho
Well-Known Member
I wasn't belittling you, I was belittling your words and there's a big difference. Where do you recommend I start, the Canary or the Morning Star?
Explosions at Manchester Arena (11 Viewers)
- Thread starter Nick
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I wasn't belittling you, I was belittling your words and there's a big difference. Where do you recommend I start, the Canary or the Morning Star?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
try the link I posted above, or this one from the NY times https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/26/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-islam.html?_r=0
or the New statesman Wahhabism to ISIS: how Saudi Arabia exported the main source of global terrorism
or even look at what trump himself had to say about Saudi and it's extremist links until his amazing about turn on becoming president.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
You've missed out the terrorist attacks in Iraq daily, in Syria, in Turkey, in Lebanon. See the pattern?
Until we treat the life of an 8 year old with the same value wherever they happen to be born in the world we will not learn
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Extremist violence then sorry. Death penalty is no deterrent just sanctions state murder.
What value a life? Think that's my fundamental question to consider. Why do we not value one another's as we do our own?
It's both complex and so so simple
oucho
Well-Known Member
My original point to all this was Ian essentially claimed that Trump was a hypocrite for condemning the Manchester attacker because he has just sold a load of weaponry to the Saudis, who allegedly (we can agree/disagree on that separately) back ISIS.
The reason I called this out is that
1) other than their claim, which I think we can treat with a healthy dose of scepticism as per my original post, there's probably no link to ISIS. Whoever did this was probably not acting as an ISIS operative, even though they claimed the attack after the fact. It's likely to have been this guy and maybe some associates, inspired by, but not by, ISIS. Nor did Trump name ISIS in the comments I quoted.
2) even if ISIS are to be found responsible, there's almost no likelihood that the weapons used in the Manchester attack were provided by the Saudis, much less that the Saudis provided ISIS with US-sourced weapons which were then used in Manchester. The Saudis had nothing to do with this at all (unless there's something we don't know).
On that basis I do not see how Trump's comments can fairly be described as hypocritical. I basically said the same thing myself before I even read his comments, there's fundamentally nothing wrong with that view.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Trump said during his election campaign that the Saudis were extremists, (so did Hilary, it was the only thing they agreed on). Last week he sold them billions of pounds worth of weapons.
You may think that doesn't make him a hypocrite but I do.
D
Deleted member 5849
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You can read any mythic text and take out of it a number of different readings...
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
He's right though, they deserve ridicule. I agree on the oil point. The whole world needs to reduce its reliance on the stuff.
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fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
I think a bullet to the head would be more reliable.
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covcity4life
Well-Known Member
Vigil on sky news right now
skybluebeduff
Well-Known Member
No I've stuck to Europe, a place where this shit has been drifted over to in the first place...
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Yet again "known to security services".They should have more power / freedom when it comes to "being known" and stopping them, bollocks to human rights and red tape.
Couldn’t agree more.
‘Known to security services’. Home grown ‘terrorists’. ‘Hate Preacher in our midst’
I’m tired of hearing those phrases. It’s been going on too long.
The excellent Simon Heffer penned an outstanding article four years ago directly after the murder of Lee Rigby. It stuck in my mind and impressed me at the time. Well worth a read:
Why Drummer Rigby's killers should be charged with treason | Daily Mail Online
ccfc92
Well-Known Member
We can have these Vigils and Hashtags and "Pray for...." all we want.
They clearly aren't working, so what's the answer?
(The victims do deserve prayers and remembrance etc, but they shouldn't be required to start with)
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
This is a big problem
Integration and pride in your country is needed to help combat terrorism too.
I remember asking my cousin why he doesnt support England national team and he said why should i? We are all pakis to white people
I told him it was a misersble outlook on life but lets say there is a person out there who feels like that and also has it in them to hurt people.
Obviously it wont end terrorism but unity would help alot.
Integration and pride in your country is needed to help combat terrorism too.
I remember asking my cousin why he doesnt support England national team and he said why should i? We are all pakis to white people
I told him it was a misersble outlook on life but lets say there is a person out there who feels like that and also has it in them to hurt people.
Obviously it wont end terrorism but unity would help alot.
ccfc92
Well-Known Member
End of the day, if they are British born, it is Treason. No question.
oucho
Well-Known Member
I agree. But that's not the basis of Ian's calling him a hypocrite - he claimed that Trump condemning the Manchester attack was hypocritical because Trump sold arms to the Saudis. There's no real link between the two as far as I can see, so those particular comments in themselves can't be called hypocritical.
Disagree if you like but don't go calling me a clown or an idiot; your subsequent replies do you a lot more credit.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
And that's the problem. Seems to be a lot of people today saying we should bomb them off the planet. How do you do that when its individuals all over the place?
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
British man!
Our response is working, desperately tragic for those affected but the level of violence has reduced for many many years worldwide and will continue to do so.
Peace is not just the absence of war it's intentional, it's sacrificial, it's taking a stand and building peace between homes and communities in the face of provocation.
Rip all those affected but thinking you can change those values we hold dear to fight those who hate those values is folly
Our response is working, desperately tragic for those affected but the level of violence has reduced for many many years worldwide and will continue to do so.
Peace is not just the absence of war it's intentional, it's sacrificial, it's taking a stand and building peace between homes and communities in the face of provocation.
Rip all those affected but thinking you can change those values we hold dear to fight those who hate those values is folly
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
OK - i'll acknowledge that you are right in saying there is no direct correlation between the two things.
However Trump has made a big thing about his beliefs and concerns about Islam, ISIS and the Middle East. And then he goes and sells a fuck load of weapons in that region. Where is the sense in that?
If he really wanted to take a stand then come out and saying he will not trade with them in terms of oil until they get their house in order.
oucho
Well-Known Member
I think it's because he sees the Saudis as a reliable ally against the fanatics.
ccfc92
Well-Known Member
What's that? :S genuine question
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Your interpretation of the Koran indicates that you yourself are extremist...perhaps even radicalised yourself in some way?
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Don't know why I bother
Well-Known Member
The person that blew himself up believed it was about Islam and that he's going to heaven or he wouldn't have killed himself. It has a lot to do with Islam. The IRA never used to blow themselves up, well not on purpose
Wake up and smell the coffee
Wake up and smell the coffee
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Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The lack of empathy displayed earlier said it all.
Westendlad
Well-Known Member
Worrying that there are thousands more potential losers on the 'watch list' in the UK.......
The Lurker
Well-Known Member
however Muslim religion isn't an issue say most on here. they are everywhere too many people throw about racist card instead looking at the bigger picture. muslims dont condemn these acts. they are radicalised in mosques up n down the country. british man he was not. anyone british wouldnt blow there own up
The Lurker
Well-Known Member
The Lurker
Well-Known Member
Ok so usually I am emotionally dead but this has really hit home for me. Somehow we need to break the cycle of hate. Always the innocents that suffer. The young people that died last night, did they support western foreign policy? The young people killed in western air strikes do they support ISIS? What a fucking mess. All I know is that I am glad my youth has been lived and sad my children's has bearly started. What a terrible world
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Stand together in the face of monstrous terrorism. They will never win if we stay firm. Love beats hate, light always overcomes darkness
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Read, educate yourself and work out how one of our allies is the cause of all this shit.
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Wahhabism
Read, educate yourself and work out how one of our allies is the cause of all this shit.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
people keep going on about Muslims this and Muslims that, the groups in the biggest danger from this ideology are non Sunni Muslims groups.
We are in bed with the sponsors of Wahhabism, we have allowed them to spread their mantra worldwide. It needs stopping.