D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
You're a fool if you equate left wing and socialism with North Korea.
left wing agitation and John Mcdonnell (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter eastwoodsdustman
- Start date
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
Are you getting confused between socialism and communism?
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Funny hopw it never works in reverse, and a Tory government is never Godwinned to a Hitler comparison.
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westcountry_skyblue
Guest
Same thing
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westcountry_skyblue
Guest
I'm no fan of Hitler and his views,But didn't Stalin and Mao kill a few more than he did?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
would be a bit unfair on hitler.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Becomes a Hitler sympathiser in order to make a shit point about Labour.
It's like an interactive Daily Mail front page...
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westcountry_skyblue
Guest
Right wing but not that far mate
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
Same thing
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Rather Hitler than Stalin, well there's a lovely choice.
In the next skybluestalk chat, it'll be whether you prefer to be Dennis Nilsen or Ted Bundy.
In the next skybluestalk chat, it'll be whether you prefer to be Dennis Nilsen or Ted Bundy.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Got to be Nilsen. Lovely rendition of Without You, although Coconut was a bit crap.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Looking at what was said in context he might have a valid point. It was said during a debate titled 'Is Democracy Working'. The full quote from McDonnell was:
“Is democracy working? It didn’t work if you were a family living on the 20th floor of Grenfell Tower. Those families, those individuals – 79 so far and there will be more – were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades. The decisions not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need, made by politicians over decades, murdered those families, the decision to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 firefighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably and they were political decisions.”
Clint you can't just peddle bullshit and expect people not to respond. I'm all for sensible debates but this is why I can't be bothered with arguing with people on here (who twist figures and lie to get their point across)
In response
Growth lower than Greece.
Have you seen the base Greece are coming from ? Also check out the growth last year (even following on from the post brexit mess). We were fastest growing in the G7. You know full well the uncertainty caused by brexit etc will ultimately have an impact on growth whoever is in government
Wages contracted by 10% since 2007.
You've picked a date from before the financial crisis which is more than a bit unfair. Agree though that there is an issue with wage growth. Nobody can question the employment stats though. Under the challenging circumstances of recent times the employment numbers have been impressive and are not even comparible with most European countries (check their employment and in particular youth employment numbers across Europe - why do you think so many young from Europe inc France have come to the UK ?). The wage growth suppression has not been helped by high net migration figures (as well as large corporates taking advantage of this)
Missed it's targets on debt reduction, not only that but borrowing through the roof.
How any labour supporter dares to mention the deficit is beyond me, especially when in the same breath complains about austerity. I think the annual deficit is down from something like 150bn a year to 50bn.
Slashed police numbers leading to security issues.
The terrorist/security issues have not been caused by police cuts (we all know they have been caused by a variety of reasons). We'd all like more police on the streets but I'm not sure they would've made a huge difference to the recent attacks. I don't have the numbers but I presume whilst police numbers have reduced recently, anti terrorist spending would've increased significantly in recent years ?
I'm just glad you didn't try to throw the Grenfell tower tragedy back in the mix.
In response
Growth lower than Greece.
Have you seen the base Greece are coming from ? Also check out the growth last year (even following on from the post brexit mess). We were fastest growing in the G7. You know full well the uncertainty caused by brexit etc will ultimately have an impact on growth whoever is in government
Wages contracted by 10% since 2007.
You've picked a date from before the financial crisis which is more than a bit unfair. Agree though that there is an issue with wage growth. Nobody can question the employment stats though. Under the challenging circumstances of recent times the employment numbers have been impressive and are not even comparible with most European countries (check their employment and in particular youth employment numbers across Europe - why do you think so many young from Europe inc France have come to the UK ?). The wage growth suppression has not been helped by high net migration figures (as well as large corporates taking advantage of this)
Missed it's targets on debt reduction, not only that but borrowing through the roof.
How any labour supporter dares to mention the deficit is beyond me, especially when in the same breath complains about austerity. I think the annual deficit is down from something like 150bn a year to 50bn.
Slashed police numbers leading to security issues.
The terrorist/security issues have not been caused by police cuts (we all know they have been caused by a variety of reasons). We'd all like more police on the streets but I'm not sure they would've made a huge difference to the recent attacks. I don't have the numbers but I presume whilst police numbers have reduced recently, anti terrorist spending would've increased significantly in recent years ?
I'm just glad you didn't try to throw the Grenfell tower tragedy back in the mix.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
What is 'employment'?
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to call anybody naive but if you're happy with the way the country is run then you're living in a bubble with no concept of how difficult life has become for millions of people in this country. We're the 5th richest country in the world and working people are missing meals to make sure their children are still fed. Neoliberalism has been in place in this country since 1979 - nearly 40 years. If there was any hope of eliminating poverty using market forces then it would have happened by now. Things need to change.
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westcountry_skyblue
Guest
Socialist labour has not been in power for 37 years does that not tell you something about their record and policies?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
It tells me you can't blame them for the current mess.
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westcountry_skyblue
Guest
Can I ask why you think socialist labour have been inelectable for that long?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
As long as I've been voting (I'm 43) there hasn't been an option to vote for socialist labour so it would have been pretty tricky for them to win. During the same period voter turnout among people my age group and under has been low with a common reason given being 'they're all the same', 'there's nobody who represents me' type comments.
In general over that time we've had a massively imbalanced media. The role of traditional media, whilst still dominant, is diminishing, making it harder for the select few at the top to control the narrative.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
I wonder what McDonnell means by "is democracy working?" Basically telling us what we already know and that is he doesn't believe in democracy. He doesn't even bother to hide it now.
Where is your evidence that people are missing meals to feed their children?
Regards.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
I can tell you I have spoken to parents in my school that do exactly this. As well as having to choose between feeding themselves and putting money on a gas or electric meter so they can keep warm or wash their children in the winter.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Again I have to accept what you say,but without evidence of income and expenditure as well of living style, it is difficult to prove one way or another.
Regards.
People crying about the state of humanity..............it's almost laughable. On pretty much every corner of the planet humanity is expanding, it's numbers doubling up unchecked because the species is so successful. Almost every other form of Flora and Fauna is under pressure, numbers drop on every other kind of living organism. We are polluting the earth and the oceans and stripping out resources quicker than they can be replenished. Deforestation levels and pollutants will without doubt affect air quality in time. Water supplies are under severe pressure.
As for this country and poverty, it would do some people some good to go and take a little look around the world at real poverty. The UK is not generating the taxes to provide for everything now but still we take in a 1/4 million people every year from around the world and the strain on everything increases year on year. Corbyn and others notion that you can take from the rich to feed the 'poor' would of course prove as usual to be impossible as those with real wealth know all the loopholes as to how to hold onto their money. The middle ground brigade would be the losers as is the case with Labour governments, ordinary hard working prudent families who are careful with their earnings would pay the tax hikes in reality.
As for this country and poverty, it would do some people some good to go and take a little look around the world at real poverty. The UK is not generating the taxes to provide for everything now but still we take in a 1/4 million people every year from around the world and the strain on everything increases year on year. Corbyn and others notion that you can take from the rich to feed the 'poor' would of course prove as usual to be impossible as those with real wealth know all the loopholes as to how to hold onto their money. The middle ground brigade would be the losers as is the case with Labour governments, ordinary hard working prudent families who are careful with their earnings would pay the tax hikes in reality.
Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
John Locke argued this in the second treatise of Government and the right to revolution. It has turned into a natural right for all Humans and can be seen in the approach Western Governments had to the Arab Spring and also their own dealings with the occupy movement a little afterwards.
You are very wrong in your assumption.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
perhaps you should aim that post at the 1% who have increased their share of the wealth to 40% purely by loading the system in their favour.
Some common sense at last. Case in point:
France forced to drop 75% supertax after meagre returns
If Corbyn believes he would generate what was needed to deliver his manifesto promises from additional taxing of the "rich" and raising corporation tax by 7% (in the middle of Brexit negotiations when the last thing medium/large corporates need is another excuse to move their operations abroad) I'm afraid he is mistaken.
As Ive said previously, the state/public sector needs reform, not just cash. It cannot continue to cope with ever increasing, and aging, population. The young quite rightly complain about not being able to get on the housing ladder, which I can 100% empathise with (I bought my first house on a 50% ladder scheme), however, when net migration has been c900,000 over the past three years, what do they expect ? Corbyn goes on about being a safe refuge for refugees (again, something that I agree with, within reason), but realistically, how do you get house prices down when incoming numbers are so high ? As I also mentioned before this has been a major reason on negative wage growth, again something he has focussed on, without saying how he would deliver a turnaround ! To be fair to the coalition, whilst not solving the issue, increasing the income tax band and raising the min wage has at least attempted to address it for the poorest.
Whilst in an ideal world I find myself agreeing with a number of Corbyns policies, in the real world they are undeliverable.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I agree in essence with some of your post but Germany has had greater net migration than the UK in the last 5 years. It also has higher corporation tax. It has also seen wages increase by 14% and is still experiencing higher growth than the UK.
In the same period UK wages have contracted and our growth forecast is below that of Greece - we must be doing something wrong.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Reform yes - but that means looking at what systems you have in place and what you can do to effectively improve them for all... that doesn't mean selling everything off so that profit ends up in the hands of individuals and not the state.
Take HS2 as an example, a complete waste of money that could be put into Education and the NHS.
We should not just accept things cannot change because someone deems them undeliverable. It's a lack of desire to make the changes that is the issue.
Germany has a completely different economy to us. Manufacturing high quality goods for an export/import surplus pays a lot better and I guess the Germans grab the most skilled of the incoming people, whereas our economy is now made up more of service industry and distribution { Warehousing }, many of which traditionally pay low. The Chinese, Japanese, Germans and others make it and we buy, store and sell it...............and again in that scenario most of the wealth is retained at the top end of companies.
HS2 is ridiculous I agree, more an opportunity to bring commuter belts in range of London, to funnel yet more talent and cash into the Capital. That's whilst they dish out the lucrative contracts to their bestest buddies of course.
I like history and read a lot on that subject............things have always been the same really, only a whole lot worse for the masses in general. World War One at least was the beginning of the end of the real divide in wealth distribution for many. Those at the top suddenly realised how much they needed those at the bottom to fight for their freedoms.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
and we were supposed to be moving away from a service based economy. But despite the rhetoric we have done nothing to increase the skill base in this country.
Removal of EMA positively discouraged youngsters from gaining skills and qualifications.
Johnnythespider
Well-Known Member
Amazing how different a comment looks when taken in context, nothing in that to get worked up about, he quite clearly blames all governments by blaming political decisions taken over decades.
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Sorry? He called people incorrectly murderers and questions democracy. No not much to get worked up at all.
In fairness I don't know his views on murderers but I know McDonnell loathes democracy. Dangerous and vile. Charming man.