The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (36 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

That's a joke about Spain right?

Spain
GDP per capita: 25,831.58 USD (2015) World Bank
Unemployment rate: 18.4% (Dec 2016) Eurostat
Gross domestic product: 1.199 trillion USD (2015) World Bank
Minimum wage: 825.65 EUR per month (Jan 2017) Eurostat
Government debt: 99.8% of GDP (2015) Eurostat
GDP growth rate: 3.2% annual change (2015) World Bank

UK
GDP per capita: 43,734.00 USD (2015) World Bank
Unemployment rate: 4.8% (Oct 2016) Eurostat
Gross domestic product: 2.849 trillion USD (2015) World Bank
Minimum wage: 1,396.90 EUR per month (Jan 2017) Eurostat
Government debt: 89.1% of GDP (2015) Eurostat
GDP growth rate: 2.3% annual change (2015) World Bank

which part of currently are people failing to grasp.
Not it's economy is in better shape, not it has a better economy, just it is currently performing better.

And those GDP projections for the UK are well out based on the latest information.

 

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[skybluetony176]

which part of currently are people failing to grasp.
Not it's economy is in better shape, not it has a better economy, just it is currently performing better.

And those GDP projections for the UK are well out based on the latest information.

Think the UK's fell to 2% for 2016, not sure about Spain.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

An absolutely ridiculous post and sums you up pretty well.

Yes...Brighton has an area called Kemptown where when I used to work the Brighton area (& "everyone who visits Brighton must surely be gay" attitude prevailed nationally at the time) had a population of about 15% gay, 20% junkie...& everyone else was just partying &/or leading a typical family life

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[SkyblueBazza]

which part of currently are people failing to grasp.
Not it's economy is in better shape, not it has a better economy, just it is currently performing better.

And those GDP projections for the UK are well out based on the latest information.

What like TODAY you mean? That's coz they have lots of trade thanks to tourism whereas in the main we put our feet up at the weekend!

The fact is - there are 9 or more paprmeters to judge a nations economic performance. And if all 9 show that a country is performing badly - you can bet yer arse they will come out with a 10th in order to look better

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[Astute]

Out of interest how does that compare to the respective 2016 figures between the two countries?

A country mile difference unless you are trying to defend the EU in every way you can.

 

[clint van damme]

A country mile difference unless you are trying to defend the EU in every way you can.

the debate wasn't about trying to defend the EU though was it?
It was about trying to blame immigration for the woes of the nation, you've let yourself get side tracked.

 

[Astute]

I never said Greece was performing better than us, I said in some areas. Our wage contraction is worse than Greece for example.
Spain is currently performing better than us.

In what way is Greece better than the UK other than the weather and having a massive debt that they can't keep up with repayments on?

 

[clint van damme]

In what way is Greece better than the UK other than the weather and having a massive debt that they can't keep up with repayments on?

wage contraction, ours is worse than theres. I think, and I could be wrong, that wage contraction in the UK is at it's worse ever, 3 quarters on the trot.

 

[Astute]

the debate wasn't about trying to defend the EU though was it?
It was about trying to blame immigration for the woes of the nation, you've let yourself get side tracked.

Who blames all of our woes on immigration?

What I do see is stupid claims that Spain and Greece are doing better than us. And the same people try to gloss over the faults of the EU.

There are good parts about the EU. Just like there are bad.

And now I have been informed that there is no such thing as racism if both are the same colour. What a joke.

 

[Astute]

wage contraction, ours is worse than theres. I think, and I could be wrong, that wage contraction in the UK is at it's worse ever, 3 quarters on the trot.

So what do they earn on average and what do we earn?

You would make a good politician with the way you can twist the truth.

 

[Astute]

And it isn't wage contraction here. It is wages going up slower than inflation. So what is inflation in Spain and Greece?

 

[clint van damme]

Who blames all of our woes on immigration?

What I do see is stupid claims that Spain and Greece are doing better than us. And the same people try to gloss over the faults of the EU.

There are good parts about the EU. Just like there are bad.

And now I have been informed that there is no such thing as racism if both are the same colour. What a joke.

Spains predicted growth is better than ours, whatever else you say that's true.
Can't find the report which said UK wage contraction worse than Greece so until I do then fair enough. we're 2nd worse, just ahead of Greece, what a proud boast!

There's a much bigger picture with the NHS than the pressure put on it by immigration line even if that may have been the case in your particular experience.

 

[clint van damme]

And it isn't wage contraction here. It is wages going up slower than inflation. So what is inflation in Spain and Greece?

yeah, that's contraction.

 

[clint van damme]

So what do they earn on average and what do we earn?

You would make a good politician with the way you can twist the truth.

and so would you the way you go off topic when it suits.

 

[Astute]

Spains predicted growth is better than ours, whatever else you say that's true.
Can't find the report which said UK wage contraction worse than Greece so until I do then fair enough. we're 2nd worse, just ahead of Greece, what a proud boast!

There's a much bigger picture with the NHS than the pressure put on it by immigration line even if that may have been the case in your particular experience.

Spains predicted growth is from a very low base. They have been in recession for many years. Yet you want everyone to see it as a good point for Spain and a bad point for us.

 

[Astute]

and so would you the way you go off topic when it suits.

That is the very point. Try telling their unemployed that they are doing better than us. Without tourists from the UK they would be on a par with Greece. They earn much less than us. Their future prospects are massively lower than ours. Yet you are trying to make out that they are doing better than us :banghead:

 

[clint van damme]

Spains predicted growth is from a very low base. They have been in recession for many years. Yet you want everyone to see it as a good point for Spain and a bad point for us.

the original argument was regarding the effects of immigration on the NHS and the wider economy.
I used some examples of economies with greater immigration out performing us who have higher percentage immigration. You've chosen to move away from that topic and keep going on about Spain for some reason.
I stand by my assertion that the main reason the NHS is in crisis isn't because of immigration.

 

[Grendel]

the original argument was regarding the effects of immigration on the NHS and the wider economy.
I used some examples of economies with greater immigration out performing us who have higher percentage immigration. You've chosen to move away from that topic and keep going on about Spain for some reason.
I stand by my assertion that the main reason the NHS is in crisis isn't because of immigration.

Maybe not but it doesn't help. The most interesting bit in this article is on the EU card

If the NHS needs more money, why not collect from health tourists? | The Spectator

 

[clint van damme]

Maybe not but it doesn't help. The most interesting bit in this article is on the EU card

If the NHS needs more money, why not collect from health tourists? | The Spectator

Can't argue with that. Wonder how promptly other EU countries collect their dues from us?

 

[Astute]

the original argument was regarding the effects of immigration on the NHS and the wider economy.
I used some examples of economies with greater immigration out performing us who have higher percentage immigration. You've chosen to move away from that topic and keep going on about Spain for some reason.
I stand by my assertion that the main reason the NHS is in crisis isn't because of immigration.

So the millions of people who have come to live here have had no effect on the NHS?

 

[clint van damme]

So the millions of people who have come to live here have had no effect on the NHS?

I didn't say they had no effect, but I think you know that. I said, more than once, that they are not the main reason for the NHS crisis.

 

[Sick Boy]

This is ridiculous, without migrants the NHS would collapse.

 

[Grendel]

This is ridiculous, without migrants the NHS would collapse.

But that would be controlled migration whereby those who were considered as contributors would be granted access and those who didn't would not.

 

[Sick Boy]

But that would be controlled migration whereby those who were considered as contributors would be granted access and those who didn't would not.

Good luck with maintaining the same level over the next few years in the current climate. How would you address the ever inceasing shortage of nurses and midwives, especially over the last year?

There's plenty of bile on this thread about migrants on here an bizarrely mixing them up with refugees in some cases.

 

[clint van damme]

But that would be controlled migration whereby those who were considered as contributors would be granted access and those who didn't would not.

Is Astute not referring to resident immigrants though who are potentially contributors through NI payments as opposed to the 'NHS tourists' in the article you linked.

 

[Captain Dart]

Out of interest how does that compare to the respective 2016 figures between the two countries?

I don't have them, but it isn't like there has been an marked change in either is it! Spains unemployment rate will still be terrible compared the UK & the Spaniards will still be paid a lot less. They would have to perform better than the UK for decades to catch up, that won't happen.

 

[skybluetony176]

Good luck with maintaining the same level over the next few years in the current climate. How would you address the ever inceasing shortage of nurses and midwives, especially over the last year?

There's plenty of bile on this thread about migrants on here an bizarrely mixing them up with refugees in some cases.

There was a midwife (British) in the question time audience in the week talking about how midwives are abandoning the NHS in their droves (both British and immigrant midwives) because of pay and conditions.

The notion that there could be selective immigration to fill gaps in the NHS seems very naive and ignoring the bigger issues in the NHS and the brexit effect on attracting, or not attracting as the case may be, the "right" sort of immigrants.

Brexit is making the UK less attractive to immigrants whether they be the "right" type or not and that's before we even leave.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Facts like it has caused a housing shortage, shortage in hospital beds and that you can't get to see a doctor or dentist easily in many areas.

It hasn't.

 

[clint van damme]

I don't have them, but it isn't like there has been an marked change in either is it! Spains unemployment rate will still be terrible compared the UK & the Spaniards will still be paid a lot less. They would have to perform better than the UK for decades to catch up, that won't happen.

No it won't but it's predicted that the UK will slip to between 7th or 9th by 2020/21.
I'm not sure how accurate those predictions can be given the current volatility surrounding brexit but hopefully they're either scaremongering or our wealth won't change it will just be emerging economies over taking us.

 

[skybluetony176]

It hasn't.

It really hasn't. We're set to be an estimated one million homes short in the UK within a few years yet net migration in the UK stands at around 250K and falling so the maths simply don't back up the theory that immigration has caused a housing crisis. And that's before you consider many immigrants live in HMO's and many are here building homes so actually benefiting the housing stock. The problem is a lack of investment in house building.

Same arguments go for the NHS, immigrants are net contributors to the UK economy so therefore help fund the NHS and the NHS is full of immigrant workers working to bring down things like waiting lists. A lack of investment is again the real issue.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

This is ridiculous, without migrants the NHS would collapse.

No it wouldn't - but without so much management hierarchy dogma it could thrive!

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[SkyblueBazza]

Good luck with maintaining the same level over the next few years in the current climate. How would you address the ever inceasing shortage of nurses and midwives, especially over the last year?

There's plenty of bile on this thread about migrants on here an bizarrely mixing them up with refugees in some cases.

There isn't a shortage of British Nurses. We just need to entice them back from Australia, NZ & US

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[Kingokings204]

It really hasn't. We're set to be an estimated one million homes short in the UK within a few years yet net migration in the UK stands at around 250K and falling so the maths simply don't back up the theory that immigration has caused a housing crisis. And that's before you consider many immigrants live in HMO's and many are here building homes so actually benefiting the housing stock. The problem is a lack of investment in house building.

Same arguments go for the NHS, immigrants are net contributors to the UK economy so therefore help fund the NHS and the NHS is full of immigrant workers working to bring down things like waiting lists. A lack of investment is again the real issue.

But circa 600k came into the country and many Brits are emigrating so if many are coming in unqualified or unskilled and the British nurses and doctors etc are leaving then in the end we end up with a skills shortage and a worse society. I don't know the exact figures on this but the point is surely valid.

 

[clint van damme]

There isn't a shortage of British Nurses. We just need to entice them back from Australia, NZ & US

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think the horse has bolted on that one after the cheering tories voted not to give them a pay rise.

 

[chiefdave]

Dominic Cummings, director of the leave campaign, was asked on twitter last night 'Is there anything which could now happen (or not happen) which would make you now wish Leave had not won the referendum result?", his response was 'Lots! I said before ref was dumb idea, other things shdve been tried 1st. In some possible branches of the future leaving will be an error'.