General Election (2 Viewers)

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martcov

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
The royal family and the lords ultimately cannot make powers. The EU can and does and much of its power base is totally undemocratic

As for proportional representation weren't you one of those squalling about how undemocratic it was when the Tories formed an alliance with a minor party? Happens all the time with PR doesn't it?
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Yes and yes. If the CDU were to ally with AfD then I would squall even more. But they won't- even if it means not gaining power. The SPD will not ally with Die Linke at national level either. So, no parties do not ally with nut case parties at national level in Germany. The last time was when von Pappen thought it was a good idea allying with the NSDAP. That won't be happening again for a long time, if ever.

And what has May's alliance with the DUP got to do with proportional representation anyway?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
The royal family and the lords ultimately cannot make powers. The EU can and does and much of its power base is totally undemocratic

As for proportional representation weren't you one of those squalling about how undemocratic it was when the Tories formed an alliance with a minor party? Happens all the time with PR doesn't it?
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The lords can delay things or amend things and send them back and the Queen meets weekly with the PM and could refuse to sign an act thus sparking a constitutional crisis. They still have influence. A senate elected on a proportional basis would have more credibility. The Queen is a great head of state as she maintains continuity and has a great knowledge of the history of modern U.K. Politics. I would keep her ( and Charles ), but reform the Lords. Either way the EU is more democratic in this case. There are no hereditary monarchies or peers in the system.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
martcov said:
Yes and yes. If the CDU were to ally with AfD then I would squall even more. But they won't- even if it means not gaining power. The SPD will not ally with Die Linke at national level either. So, no parties do not ally with nut case parties at national level in Germany. The last time was when von Pappen thought it was a good idea allying with the NSDAP. That won't be happening again for a long time, if ever.

And what has May's alliance with the DUP got to do with proportional representation anyway?
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Proportional representation doesn't produce a majority government and forced alliances - as shown in the EU elections parties like UKIP and the BNP do traditionally poll well - Corbyn would have never gained the votes he did under PR

The DUP in Enoch powells day had the Tory whip it's hardly a radical move. Also they are democratically elected and have the majority seats in parliament from Ireland. Are you saying Irish people are stupid for voting for them or are they not representative of the people of Ireland?
 
lifeskyblue

lifeskyblue

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
Proportional representation doesn't produce a majority government and forced alliances - as shown in the EU elections parties like UKIP and the BNP do traditionally poll well - Corbyn would have never gained the votes he did under PR

The DUP in Enoch powells day had the Tory whip it's hardly a radical move. Also they are democratically elected and have the majority seats in parliament from Ireland. Are you saying Irish people are stupid for voting for them or are they not representative of the people of Ireland?
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True, proportional representation doesn't produce majority government but then neither has first past the post on two of the last three uk elections.
Also true that Corbyn wouldn't have got as many votes (in England but may have polled more a n Scotland) but then again may probably wouldn't have either. A lot more minor parties would take a seat or two and we would end up with broad based alliances. Is that better or worse than we have? Who knows until it happens. Countries with both systems are fairly stable. The issue for me is what is better for the average voter and I like our current system as my mp represents me whatever their party or my views. But PR would mean my and everyone else's vote would count unlike in the present system.


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M

martcov

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
Proportional representation doesn't produce a majority government and forced alliances - as shown in the EU elections parties like UKIP and the BNP do traditionally poll well - Corbyn would have never gained the votes he did under PR

The DUP in Enoch powells day had the Tory whip it's hardly a radical move. Also they are democratically elected and have the majority seats in parliament from Ireland. Are you saying Irish people are stupid for voting for them or are they not representative of the people of Ireland?
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Are you claiming that the GroKo doesn't have a majority? The CDU and SPD signed a coalition contract which they have generally held. The government has been stable and they didn't have to bung a billion. The coalition contract was give and take, with both parties getting some things through that they wanted. I don't see it as a bad thing as everyone ( both party's supporters ) got something out of it. It also moderates the government.

I hope for CDU/ FDP next time as I am not really CDU, but believe Merkel is the right person to be steering the ship. She represents Western values and the FDP are the only party who may make life easier for small businesses. I would take SPD/ FDP or greens as an alternative. I wouldn't go for AfD or the Linke in any form though.

You refer to DUP as having the majority seats in Ireland. That is bullshit. Sinn Fein has more seats in Ireland as a whole. They almost caught up with the DUP because of the DUP's leader's scandalous behaviour. Nothing to inspire confidence in them as a part of the British Government in as far as they can pull the plug at some future time.
 
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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
Sick Boy said:
The notion that the EU is a socialist super-state is absurd. No doubt you refer to it as the EUSSR as well.
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What would you liken it to? It is either a socialist state or a Corporation. It only really cares about money & business...people are token & disposable items. Don't get me wrong they do lots of good to some, but in reality so do/would the Tories, Labour, Liberals of the UK. They also do a lot of damage to some others

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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
martcov said:
How many new burocrats have we employed because of Brexit? How many years does our poer bloc need to entangle us from the EU? What guarantee is there that we will be better off after all that?
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If you always do what you have always done...etc - you will know the rest.

The UK is being bold & stepping into the relative unknown. But who knows for sure tat staying in the EU would be a good thing? What guarantees can anyone give on that? The Remain campaign didn't come up with much convincing stuff did they?

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S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
martcov said:
The lords can delay things or amend things and send them back and the Queen meets weekly with the PM and could refuse to sign an act thus sparking a constitutional crisis. They still have influence. A senate elected on a proportional basis would have more credibility. The Queen is a great head of state as she maintains continuity and has a great knowledge of the history of modern U.K. Politics. I would keep her ( and Charles ), but reform the Lords. Either way the EU is more democratic in this case. There are no hereditary monarchies or peers in the system.
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The constitutional stuff you describe has never will never happen - we all know that! It's merely ceremonial tradition that draws attention globally because of the pomp & ceremony - & brings £££

Were even the Queen to exercise her theoretical power - they'd simply nullify the power of the monarch

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M

martcov

Well-Known Member
SkyblueBazza said:
The constitutional stuff you describe has never will never happen - we all know that! It's merely ceremonial tradition that draws attention globally because of the pomp & ceremony - & brings £££

Were even the Queen to exercise her theoretical power - they'd simply nullify the power of the monarch

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Are you claiming that the Lords never pass amendments to bills? I said the Queen could cause a constitutional crisis as a last resort. It should never happen, but could happen.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
SkyblueBazza said:
If you always do what you have always done...etc - you will know the rest.

The UK is being bold & stepping into the relative unknown. But who knows for sure tat staying in the EU would be a good thing? What guarantees can anyone give on that? The Remain campaign didn't come up with much convincing stuff did they?

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No one knows the future, but there was no immediate crisis big enough to justify jettisoning the U.K. Into the unknown. Most of the big leave claims are now definitely not taking place or look like being watered down. The rest is chaotic. Hardly a better situation than we had a year ago.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
SkyblueBazza said:
What would you liken it to? It is either a socialist state or a Corporation. It only really cares about money & business...people are token & disposable items. Don't get me wrong they do lots of good to some, but in reality so do/would the Tories, Labour, Liberals of the UK. They also do a lot of damage to some others

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It is neither nor. These are just labels used by critics from left and right. You just take your pick of these opposing phrases according to your political preferences. Which sort of shows that at least one must be wrong and because of the flexibility of use, probably both descriptions are wrong.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
Liquid Gold said:
If we sort out a free trade deal with Japan then it'ill really fuck those EU cunts over


Oh shit
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Don't worry Trump has just said we are getting a US trade deal very quickly and it will be great for both parties.

Nothing to worry about there.................
 
S

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
martcov said:
Are you claiming that the Lords never pass amendments to bills? I said the Queen could cause a constitutional crisis as a last resort. It should never happen, but could happen.
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The Lords do...but a majority gov't can just ignore the Lords & push things through as they wish anyway. Rarely do they choose to - but they can!

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Johnnythespider

Johnnythespider

Well-Known Member
SkyblueBazza said:
Her own party is looking as much a liability to her as she is to it given the 'unintentional'(???) use of offensive metaphors in public speeches

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Suspended for a unspecified period, or in other words until her vote is needed in parliament.

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chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
What a stoke of luck. Just when Jeremy Hunt was having problems meeting any ambulance response targets he finds out that heart attacks and strokes aren't really emergencies. So now instead of a target of getting a paramedic to you in 8 minutes it's been changes to 40 minutes. :mad:
 
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
martcov said:
What? I should stop moaning about too much burocracy serving potentially no valid purpose? No I won't.
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Yet you champion the EU. Yet you ignore the bureaucracy that comes with it. And we didn't even vote any of them in.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
Astute said:
Yet you champion the EU. Yet you ignore the bureaucracy that comes with it. And we didn't even vote any of them in.
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We vote for the European Parliament.... our elected representatives vote for the members of the European Council....elected representatives appoint people like Junker.... the EU is not the House of Lords or the Monarchy.

Championing the EU... maybe seen from your neutral viewpoint, but pointing out that is not totally evil designed for the Germans to rule Britain from my viewpoint.

With 28 countries having to follow the same or similar procedures on a huge range of products and administrative practices, it can only be burocratic. That is a necessary evil. Maybe it can and should be more efficient- wouldn't argue with any good suggestions to achieve that. The difference between EU and Brexit burocracy, is that EU burocracy is necessary ( to some point ) and Brexit burocracy is a massive expense and distraction from the normal running of the country put upon the UK by itself with no guarantee that at the end of Brexit the U.K. Will be ib
 
Captain Dart

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Captain Dart said:
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That is a shocking level of economic understanding from the Eye there. Hardly surprising TBF.

We aren't a fucking person, a national economy is fuck all like a household budget.

The governments job is to ensure the economy is running well, not to get bogged down in ideology. Inflation and growth reduce debt, not "paying it down". And even if we do pass debt on, so what? They can pass it on too! As long as we can make the payments we need debt in and of itself isn't an issue. The question is will growth and inflation be a the right level.
 
Captain Dart

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
Here is some really shocking incompetence, she's at it again.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
Not happy about having my retirement age increased. Don't remember that being in the Conservative manifesto.
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It isn't a Conservative government.
 
Ian1779

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
I see the Scum and the Mail flat out lying about Labour's comments on university tuition fees and student debt.

Whilst the Tories are selling student debt to companies charging 9% interest.
 
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