The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (35 Viewers)

[Deleted member 5849]

Where I work people always talk about leaving. But other than retiring our staff turnover runs between 1 and 2%.

Nobody ever talks about leaving where I work, they just leave because of budget cuts...

And we're talking a significant multiple of your staff turnover. Many of the rest of us have also had to accept changes in conditions and hours (not to our benefit) to stay.

 

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[Astute]

Immigrants especially from the EU are coming here to work, the reason they're doing that is because jobs in both skilled and "unskilled" sectors are available, immigrants especially those from the EU are net contributors to the UK economy. Which means it works. You've been tricked into thinking that somehow it's broken. It might not be perfect but it certainly isn't broken.

If people are not coming from the EU to fill these employment gaps who is? Or are you suggesting that these jobs will simply go away and we won't need an immigrant workforce to fill these holes? If these jobs do simply disappear because there isn't an immigrant workforce to fill the positions what effect will that have on the UK economy? Will it be a gain for the UK economy or a loss? If a loss are you seriously suggesting that a government will deliberately allow a shrinkage in the UK economy so they can say we're only letting in skilled workers like astute wanted or will they make it easier for immigrants to come into the country wether they be from the EU, the commonwealth of wherever?

Nothing will change regarding numbers overall, just the demographics. Only we'll probably end up with a unskilled, poorly educated, unlikely to go home immigrant workforce. But it's OK because you'll be able to say we control the borders. Biting of your nose to spite your face springs to mind.

So where have I said that jobs are not available? Wasn't it you that tried to say that our unemployment rate went up in June when it went down yet again and we now have record employment?

My point has always been the same. We don't have enough housing for people already here after record immigration to the UK. You can blame who you want. But it is still a fact. Yet anyone from the EU can still come here to live. In some areas you can't even get a doctors appointment for 2 weeks or more. Blame who you want but it is still a fact. In some areas hospitals can't cope. But people still move into them areas. Blame who you want but it is still a fact.

 

[Astute]

So what happens when the minimum salary threshold of £35K kicks in given that nursing isn't an exempt profession? And what happens when we leave the EU if we haven't agreed to freedom of movement and those same rules therefore apply to EU nurses?

Minimum of 35k? The average is 50% lower than that now. So how long will the minimum wage take to nearly treble?

And I suppose it was a serious post by you?

 

[Liquid Gold]

@Astute for someone that's not a Tory and didn't vote for Brexit you don't half like to argue on their behalf.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

We don't have enough housing for people already here after record immigration to the UK.

Yet immigrants are net contributors to the economy.

Without that, there's less cash available to build social housing.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

There is not a lack of housing in this country.......there are over 1.3 million empty homes......

What there is (and has been for the last 20 years) is complete political inertia to resolve or even propose a sensible solution to the housing problem......

Aside from political failure, its banks, buy-to-let, help-to-buy, land-banking, poor planning & even fucking airB&B that have had a larger detrimental effect on housing than immigration.....

I voted leave & I'm sick of the scapegoating of immigrants for all the nations ills.....

 

[Liquid Gold]

There is not a lack of housing in this country.......there are over 1.3 million empty homes......

What there is (and has been for the last 20 years) is complete political inertia to resolve or even propose a sensible solution to the housing problem......

Aside from political failure, its banks, buy-to-let, help-to-buy, land-banking, poor planning & even fucking airB&B that have had a larger detrimental effect on housing than immigration.....

I voted leave & I'm sick of the scapegoating of immigrants for all the nations ills.....

 

[chiefdave]

Minimum of 35k? The average is 50% lower than that now. So how long will the minimum wage take to nearly treble?

And I suppose it was a serious post by you?

Didn't make the figure up its the threshold that the home office and May are bringing in for Tier 2 Visas. At present it will only impact non-EU immigrants but once we leave the EU unless we have special arrangements in place then that will be the rule for everyone from outside the UK.

 

[Astute]

@Astute for someone that's not a Tory and didn't vote for Brexit you don't half like to argue on their behalf.

I'm not arguing on anyone's behalf. But I will always point out what I see as false statements. And there has been many on this thread.

 

[Astute]

Yet immigrants are net contributors to the economy.

Without that, there's less cash available to build social housing.

What social housing? It doesn't get built anymore. But when large building projects get the OK they are supposed to have a certain % as affordable housing. But even that gets reduced by half on average. The whole thing is an absolute joke.

 

[Astute]

There is not a lack of housing in this country.......there are over 1.3 million empty homes......

What there is (and has been for the last 20 years) is complete political inertia to resolve or even propose a sensible solution to the housing problem......

Aside from political failure, its banks, buy-to-let, help-to-buy, land-banking, poor planning & even fucking airB&B that have had a larger detrimental effect on housing than immigration.....

I voted leave & I'm sick of the scapegoating of immigrants for all the nations ills.....

Buy to let? They are all rented out. Land banks are the biggest problem. They sit on the land for years. They limit the amount of houses that they build to keep the prices high. So they make more money.

Me blaming immigration? We have millions of people without a permanent home. If you don't have children you are not able to get housing help. There is a massive amount of people renting sheds in some parts of London. Bit a blind eye is turned to it a lot of the time as there is nowhere to house them.

So I am wrong to say that we should try and house people who already live here before letting anyone entrance to the UK who wants to come?

 

[Astute]

Didn't make the figure up its the threshold that the home office and May are bringing in for Tier 2 Visas. At present it will only impact non-EU immigrants but once we leave the EU unless we have special arrangements in place then that will be the rule for everyone from outside the UK.

Are you saying that we won't be able to let people in who have the skills we need?

 

[skybluetony176]

So where have I said that jobs are not available? Wasn't it you that tried to say that our unemployment rate went up in June when it went down yet again and we now have record employment?

My point has always been the same. We don't have enough housing for people already here after record immigration to the UK. You can blame who you want. But it is still a fact. Yet anyone from the EU can still come here to live. In some areas you can't even get a doctors appointment for 2 weeks or more. Blame who you want but it is still a fact. In some areas hospitals can't cope. But people still move into them areas. Blame who you want but it is still a fact.

So where have I said that you said that jobs aren't available? That's the whole point of my post. They're coming because those jobs are available. If they don't come what are we supposed to do? Shrink our economy so there isn't more jobs than people either already here or willing to come here to take up the slack. This whole control our own borders is bollocks, they're controlled to the largest extent by the amount of available jobs for immigrants. If there wasn't the jobs the majority wouldn't come, they'd go somewhere else where there was jobs, that's how being an economic migration works and that's what immigration from the EU is.

No I didn't say unemployment went up but you can pretend I did if it helps you out.

The housing shortage is down to many issues from lack of investment to a lack of both skilled and unskilled workforce in the building industry. I worked my of my life as a tradesman in the house building industry, I've seen it first hand and the problems also include things like the major house builders sitting on land banks until the economic conditions suits their profit projections for that site. There's nothing stopping major house builders selling land at a reasonable price to local government and then building social housing for a reasonable price on it except A) they don't want to as there isn't the profit margin in it and B) even if they wanted to local government doesn't have the capital to do it. So you're left with a scenario where the major house builders build at their own pace and that's a pace that maximises profit for the shareholders and housing authorities left to try and take up the slack. That's a failure of successive governments and the current government don't have any hunger to address it. And why would they when we can blame both the EU and immigrants.

 

[chiefdave]

Are you saying that we won't be able to let people in who have the skills we need?

If the rules that apply to non-EU applicants come into force for EU applicants then yes that is what will happen. It is already happening with non EU applicants.

In the first 8 months since the Home Office implemented the change 2,341 tier 2 applications by NHS Trusts were rejected. As the phased increase in minimum salary requirements comes in that will only get worse. As things stand when we leave the EU those who currently qualify under freedom of movement would be classed the same as non-EU applicants and be in the same situation.

As I said when you combine that with nurses leaving in record numbers and UK applicants falling there's a pretty obvious problem round the corner.

 

[Nick]

What social housing? It doesn't get built anymore. But when large building projects get the OK they are supposed to have a certain % as affordable housing. But even that gets reduced by half on average. The whole thing is an absolute joke.

They do, there's multiple estates full of them.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What social housing? It doesn't get built anymore.

And there's your problem, not immigrants!

Immigrants add to the money available for projects, not take it away. As it currently stands you take immigration away, we'll all be worse off.

So what will be done to stop that happening if you remove immigrants? Higher taxes is the obvious one...

 

[Astute]

I haven't blamed immigration. But immigration has exasperated the problem.

It all started off when Maggie started the right to buy. It wouldn't have been a problem if councils were allowed to use the money to build more. Private landlords have taken over from them. But of course they charge much more. So now a lot of taxpayers money goes to private landlords. Many of them rent out slums. The tenants are too scared to complain because they can't get anywhere else. Council properties have been handed over to housing associations. Now there is nowhere near enough to house the needy. All the land that should be built on is held by the big building companies. But they won't build because they want to keep the prices up. It is all about supply and demand.

Yes I do get it.

But even if all councils started building again and the building companies were forced to build it would take many years just to catch up with where we need to be now. And with the population growing at a fast rate it would take even longer.

So what is the answer from those that say we should allow anyone in who wants to come and live here? We certainly need countless people in the building trade.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The trouble with data is deciding what to believe given that it was annpunced this week that the official calculated unemployed figures have a 'glitch' in them.
It's those sort of sources that fullfact.org (which i prefer to read over newspapers) use. If even official sources of raw data is providing inaccurate data we don't stand a chance of knowing or understanding wtf is going on or planning ahead effectively as individuals or as a nation

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[SkyblueBazza]

Are you saying that we won't be able to let people in who have the skills we need?

I say short term yes...medium term improve training...long term skills available domestically...lower unemployment rates...stronger economy...better paid...more taxes raised...but less needed. The nations that we currently get these skilled people from then benefit by keeping their own cup full too.

Win-win-win-win-win

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[Grendel]

And there's your problem, not immigrants!

Immigrants add to the money available for projects, not take it away. As it currently stands you take immigration away, we'll all be worse off.

So what will be done to stop that happening if you remove immigrants? Higher taxes is the obvious one...

There is actually no evidence at all to say immigration is a net contributor if you then factor out per person cost for required social services. The assumption made is total expenditure they make remained inside the UK.

There is no statistics to back up your comment it's just an opinion.

 

[martcov]

The trouble with data is deciding what to believe given that it was annpunced this week that the official calculated unemployed figures have a 'glitch' in them.
It's those sort of sources that fullfact.org (which i prefer to read over newspapers) use. If even official sources of raw data is providing inaccurate data we don't stand a chance of knowing or understanding wtf is going on or planning ahead effectively as individuals or as a nation

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Faux Facts - The disturbing Truth About fullfact.org

Google that for a second opinion and who is behind fullfacts

 

[Deleted member 5849]

There is actually no evidence at all to say immigration is a net contributor if you then factor out per person cost for required social services. The assumption made is total expenditure they make remained inside the UK.

There is no statistics to back up your comment it's just an opinion.

Positive economic impact of UK immigration from the European Union: new evidence

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Faux Facts - The disturbing Truth About fullfact.org

Google that for a second opinion and who is behind fullfacts

I have no real knowledge of the case they're citing so am unable to comment one way or the other than my noting that the case was back in 2012. However virtually all the stuff I look at it to do with the economy & political claims...which I have seen them discredit using official data sources which it is hard to discredit as the politicians often choose not to use them (probably because they can't easily twist it to meet their own end)

Only other question would be who is UK Column? Who founded & supports it? How independent & unbiased is it? Who is the editor & what credibility to call themselves as independent have they?

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[Grendel]

Positive economic impact of UK immigration from the European Union: new evidence

Which proves my point - it refers only to taxation vs benefits and not the overall cost on schools, health and public expenditure.

 

[Astute]

Positive economic impact of UK immigration from the European Union: new evidence

Have you checked their negative points? They seem to agree with me and many others.

 

[Kingokings204]

Positive economic impact of UK immigration from the European Union: new evidence

Isn't your our link at uni site? Very pro EU institutions at worst. And as some have said where are the negatives to balance the argument. In my opinion it works out about level.

We need immigration but good and positive immigration not open borders.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Isn't your our link at uni site? Very pro EU institutions at worst. And as some have said where are the negatives to balance the argument. In my opinion it works out about level.

We need immigration but good and positive immigration not open borders.

Christ, it's the disbelieve experts now.

Maybe they're positive having, you know, researched it objectively and come to that conclusion.

But of course they're biased, because their research doesn't say what you want it to say having, you know, done some research.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Christ, it's the disbelieve experts now.

Maybe they're positive having, you know, researched it objectively and come to that conclusion.

But of course they're biased, because their research doesn't say what you want it to say having, you know, done some research.

Maybe they're positive having, you know, researched it objectively and come to that conclusion.

But of course they're biased, because their research doesn't say what you want it to say having, you know, done some research.[/QUOTE]
Well just a quick scan tells me that this might well be genuinely independent research by 'experts' (researchers miss things, can have personal bias, subsequently proven wrong etc...think 'Red wine is good for the heart', fire regulations & Grenful Tower erc - & 'experts' are just as prone to disagree as imbeciles, the arguments are simply more intellectual)...but although immigrants contribute more in taxes than they receive in benefits...how much does their arrival cost in benefits paid to members of the indigenous population over a lifetime because they can't get work they would otherwise be eligible for?
Immigrants do unskilled work as well as skilled.

So it's all just like SISU approach to dealing with their public...smoke & mirrors. We believe what we choose to believe based on experience & some knowledge. At the end of the day they're all bastards...full of ego, & self promotional & happy to misguide others to pursue & their own end

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[martcov]

I have no real knowledge of the case they're citing so am unable to comment one way or the other than my noting that the case was back in 2012. However virtually all the stuff I look at it to do with the economy & political claims...which I have seen them discredit using official data sources which it is hard to discredit as the politicians often choose not to use them (probably because they can't easily twist it to meet their own end)

Only other question would be who is UK Column? Who founded & supports it? How independent & unbiased is it? Who is the editor & what credibility to call themselves as independent have they?

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According to that logic nobody is completely neutral - not even Astute. Unfortunately that appears to be the case. I really can't say who is better ( I haven't been following either ), but I think that just because it's called "fullfact" it doesn't necessarily mean that it is. In the time in which we live in, where people like Donald Trump just say whatever they feel like on a certain day regardless of the facts, then we have to read several sources to get the jist of what is really happening.

 

[martcov]

Isn't your our link at uni site? Very pro EU institutions at worst. And as some have said where are the negatives to balance the argument. In my opinion it works out about level.

We need immigration but good and positive immigration not open borders.

We don't have open borders.

 

[Astute]

We don't have open borders.

We do to EU residents. It is those from elsewhere that have a problem getting in. That is why we have slums in places like Calais. No human being should be treated like they are. You would get arrested if you treated an animal in the same way.

 

[Astute]

According to that logic nobody is completely neutral - not even Astute. Unfortunately that appears to be the case. I really can't say who is better ( I haven't been following either ), but I think that just because it's called "fullfact" it doesn't necessarily mean that it is. In the time in which we live in, where people like Donald Trump just say whatever they feel like on a certain day regardless of the facts, then we have to read several sources to get the jist of what is really happening.

They certainly seem biased towards the EU. It wouldn't surprise me if they got funding from it. But they do mention some of the bad parts of being in the EU. They say it using politically correct phrases though. As in might and maybe. But state the good things as a certainly.

 

[martcov]

They certainly seem biased towards the EU. It wouldn't surprise me if they got funding from it. But they do mention some of the bad parts of being in the EU. They say it using politically correct phrases though. As in might and maybe. But state the good things as a certainly.

The opposite of you then. But you are neutral.

 

[Astute]

The opposite of you then. But you are neutral.

I'm not biased on leaving or staying. I can see good and bad on both leaving and staying. But yes you could say that I am biased if we are talking about people having somewhere to live and have the chance of healthcare when needed. Yet if you believe what you read on here I should be looking at someone to blame for homelessness than wanting a solution for it.

 

[martcov]

I'm not biased on leaving or staying. I can see good and bad on both leaving and staying. But yes you could say that I am biased if we are talking about people having somewhere to live and have the chance of healthcare when needed. Yet if you believe what you read on here I should be looking at someone to blame for homelessness than wanting a solution for it.

So leaving the EU is the solution for homelessness? That's easy then.