The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (252 Viewers)

[chiefdave]

The Isle of Man arent and never have been in the EU and couldn't vote in the referendum could they?

They aren't in the EU and they didn't vote in the referendum but they currently trade under protocol 3 of the UKs act of ascension so the UK leaving the EU will certainly impact them as that will fall away.

EU citizens are currently free to travel and reside on the Isle of Man so unless that is removed in order to control our borders as promised a hard border needs to be put in place. Of course its not quite as complicated as there isn't a land border as there is between ROI and NI so if you assume that there will be a hard border around the UK then there is no issue, even if there is a freedom of movement agreement with IoM they will still need to cross the UK border and subject to the checks put in place.

 

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[skybluetony176]

They aren't in the EU and they didn't vote in the referendum but they currently trade under protocol 3 of the UKs act of ascension so the UK leaving the EU will certainly impact them as that will fall away.

EU citizens are currently free to travel and reside on the Isle of Man so unless that is removed in order to control our borders as promised a hard border needs to be put in place. Of course its not quite as complicated as there isn't a land border as there is between ROI and NI so if you assume that there will be a hard border around the UK then there is no issue, even if there is a freedom of movement agreement with IoM they will still need to cross the UK border and subject to the checks put in place.

I think grendull is planning on walking to the isle of man for his holidays. I've crossed the Irish channel countless times including to the IOM and I can assure him that it doesn't matter how far the tide goes out it isn't walkable. The IOM police are also very hot at ports as they proudly try to keep the island free of recreational drugs, largely successfully too. They don't mess around in the IOM. Still have the death sentence.

You also need a work permit to work in the IOM if not from the IOM, even if you're British. If you're from the IOM you also don't have the right to work in the EU automatically.

Great place to visit by the way, especially early June.

 

[Grendel]

They aren't in the EU and they didn't vote in the referendum but they currently trade under protocol 3 of the UKs act of ascension so the UK leaving the EU will certainly impact them as that will fall away.

EU citizens are currently free to travel and reside on the Isle of Man so unless that is removed in order to control our borders as promised a hard border needs to be put in place. Of course its not quite as complicated as there isn't a land border as there is between ROI and NI so if you assume that there will be a hard border around the UK then there is no issue, even if there is a freedom of movement agreement with IoM they will still need to cross the UK border and subject to the checks put in place.

"If you assume"

Says it all really. You are making assumptions and guesses (and taking large quoted extracts off wiki)

No one as of yet has any idea what will happen. It's entirely conceivable and possible a border of movement will be allowed between the countries (in fact it's almost certain this will be the outcome) several countries and principalities throughout Europe have this solution.

I'm amazed the likes of you, Martcov and sick boy aren't on the Brexit committee as you seem so knowledgable - I see Tony liked your post.

Skybluetony one time UKIP voter and Nigel Farahe fanboy.

Some things you can't make up.

 

[chiefdave]

"If you assume"
Says it all really. You are making assumptions and guesses (and taking large quoted extracts off wiki)

You assume because we have been repeatedly told by leave voters that they knew exactly what they were voting for and that included control of our borders. To have control of our borders it needs to actually exist, i.e.: a hard border.

Not sure what you think is a quote from Wiki, not that it would really make much difference as long as its factually correct.

No one as of yet has any idea what will happen.

How can that be true if those voting leave knew exactly what they were voting for?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Is that a serious question?

Yes. Apart from media talk about what might be, where has it come forward as a serious proposal.

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[fernandopartridge]

I would say that without any agreements you are a third party state. If you are a third party state your goods will be treated differently to those of a customs union member. That would mean a hard border with trade and passport controls. Or do you think that the EU has open borders?

The negotiation is about making agreements with that EU. Your assumptions are based on the premise of the hardest of Brexit, but suppose that's the pro EU propaganda you believe (Not that there won't be disadvantages to the UK leaving)

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[fernandopartridge]

Great to hear that some on this thread are willing to compromise and retain freedom of movement in exchange for avoiding hard borders.

Yes. As are the British government as you should have read, I saw it in the guardian

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[martcov]

The negotiation is about making agreements with that EU. Your assumptions are based on the premise of the hardest of Brexit, but suppose that's the pro EU propaganda you believe (Not that there won't be disadvantages to the UK leaving)

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My assumption being based on the present situation. If the government said we are definitely staying in the customs union and free movement will continue, then there would be no problem. But then why are we leaving the EU? At the moment we are being told that Brexit is Brexit and the leavers are saying we are leaving, move on. Out is out.

Some leavers on here are enthusing about how easy it is to cross borders because of free movement and the customs union.

It is hard to know what leavers really want. Sounds like having their cake and eating it - which will never happen. At the same time they claim that they knew what they voted for.

To point these contradictions out is called "pro EU propaganda".

The assumption that you just put a cross on a ballot paper and that's that was obviously a pretty naive, if not stupid, assumption.

 

[martcov]

"If you assume"

Says it all really. You are making assumptions and guesses (and taking large quoted extracts off wiki)

No one as of yet has any idea what will happen. It's entirely conceivable and possible a border of movement will be allowed between the countries (in fact it's almost certain this will be the outcome) several countries and principalities throughout Europe have this solution.

I'm amazed the likes of you, Martcov and sick boy aren't on the Brexit committee as you seem so knowledgable - I see Tony liked your post.

Skybluetony one time UKIP voter and Nigel Farahe fanboy.

Some things you can't make up.

Well yes. You are admitting that you and everyone else has no idea what was going to happen with important questions when you voted. Martcov and Sickboy are not on the Brexit Committee because they ask too many questions and want answers from experts- not "out is out", Brexit means Brexit. The Brexiteers have made it clear that they are not interested in experts and have voted against expert advice. We wouldn't be welcome in the Brexit camp. Anyway, who needs people like us when you know what you voted for and claim to know the almost certain outcome. The outcome you suggest being everything stays much the same but we have no say in anything the EU does and we must do our own deals with the rest of the world as a lone country instead of being part of a bloc . The EU have said we cannot have a better deal with them than we already have.

Yes, you really can't make this up.

Apropos Farage. Is he still enthusing about Trump seeing his promises through and his loyalty? Points that he describes as "refreshing'. Any recent pictures of him with his Baseball cap " Make America Great Again"?

 

[skybluetony176]

"If you assume"

Says it all really. You are making assumptions and guesses (and taking large quoted extracts off wiki)

No one as of yet has any idea what will happen. It's entirely conceivable and possible a border of movement will be allowed between the countries (in fact it's almost certain this will be the outcome) several countries and principalities throughout Europe have this solution.

I'm amazed the likes of you, Martcov and sick boy aren't on the Brexit committee as you seem so knowledgable - I see Tony liked your post.

Skybluetony one time UKIP voter and Nigel Farahe fanboy.

Some things you can't make up.

All of who have treaties in place to have free trade access to the single market. We don't want access to the single market because like the countries you mention they have to allow free movement of people. The IOM is a little different as they have back door access by being a crown dependant of the UK. A backdoor access that they will lose when we leave the EU which will effect them. It actually would have been interesting to see how they would have voted. My guess would have to be remain as this back door entrance allows southern Ireland to be their biggest trading partners outside of the UK. Same goes for the channel islands

As for being a Farage fan boy nothing could be further from the truth. Yes I voted UKIP once and once only but it was as a protest to the EU to reform ahead of David Cameron's negotiations ahead of the brexit referendum. It was a tactical vote, not an endorsement. I'm under no disillusions that the EU needs to reform or how difficult it is to get reform within the EU. So I took the decision based on that I believe remaining was the best policy for my country to vote UKIP to fire a warning shot over the bows so to speak of the EU ahead of Cameron's negotiations. I knew that so long as the EU thought we would remain they'd be abrasive to reform. I also knew that without meaningful reform we were likely to vote out as I always thought it would be close anyway. The rest is history.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yes. Apart from media talk about what might be, where has it come forward as a serious proposal.

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Already answered that one if you read back.

 

[skybluetony176]

The assumption that you just put a cross on a ballot paper and that's that was obviously a pretty naive, if not stupid, assumption.

You see it all the time. There was the brexit voting fruit farmer in the news the other week whose now worried he won't have an available workforce to harvest his crops. I myself have mentioned before someone I know who's business is heavily reliant on an EU workforce voted out because he assumed based on Boris's rhetoric that we'd remain in the single market, a rhetoric he was still spouting in his newspaper column the Monday after the referendum. Which was also actually the point Gove stabbed him in the back as they were clearly singing from different hymn sheets. I also know someone who's husband is from the EU who voted out and then realised afterwards that actually he may lose his right to work here and lose benefits like access to the NHS and pension that he's been contributing to practically his whole working life as he came to the UK as a young man and is now nearing retirement age. Although they look to be OK on that from what is being suggested. I also know a guy through work who voted out to keep the imigrunts out and no other reason whatsoever as he doesn't care as he's currently selling up and retiring to France. Yes he is an asshole, if it wasn't for work I personally wouldn't have anything to do with the bloke ever.

 

[chiefdave]

If you're just going to make shit up at least try and remember the shit other people in your party made up and all stick to the same BS.

 

[Sick Boy]

The fact that the corrupt little worm Liam Fox is anywhere near negotiating trade deals says it all!

 

[Ashdown]

If you're just going to make shit up at least try and remember the shit other people in your party made up and all stick to the same BS.

Yes but it should be relatively simple. Or at least it would be if the EU cretins will ever even attempt to negotiate a settlement. Thing is they don't want to, so it will drag on.
In the meantime we start to get common sense policy muted like giving preference to UK workers for unskilled employment opportunities over migrants. If this had been done 15 years ago Brexit would not have happened and the UK would not be nursing half of Europe's lowest skilled and undesirable unchecked characters.

 

[clint van damme]

Yes but it should be relatively simple. Or at least it would be if the EU cretins will ever even attempt to negotiate a settlement. Thing is they don't want to, so it will drag on.
In the meantime we start to get common sense policy muted like giving preference to UK workers for unskilled employment opportunities over migrants. If this had been done 15 years ago Brexit would not have happened and the UK would not be nursing half of Europe's lowest skilled and undesirable unchecked characters.

you don't half talk some utter nonsense.

 

[chiefdave]

In the meantime we start to get common sense policy muted like giving preference to UK workers for unskilled employment opportunities over migrants. If this had been done 15 years ago Brexit would not have happened and the UK would not be nursing half of Europe's lowest skilled and undesirable unchecked characters.

We already have this, we just choose not to enforce it.

Freedom of movement from other EU countries to the UK only applies to economically active (i.e. working) persons. Non economically active persons can only visit for 3 months, the same (or in many cases more restrictive) as we can visit other non-EU countries. To stay longer they would have to provide proof of finance and medical insurance coverage.

As an EU citizen freedom of movement to the UK doesn't apply if you aren't working or have little prospect of getting a job (i.e. unskilled).

EU citizens only acquire access to benefits in the UK they have been in work for a period of time.

We also have the right to suspend freedom of movement for seven years if a new country joins the EU.

So what additional rules do you want put in place and if those rules are put in place what will be different? At present the UK does not track the status of EU citizens and does not enforce the restrictions. That doesn't seem to me to be the fault of the EU or our membership of it.

 

[Sick Boy]

Unsurprisingly the Brexiteers' hero Rees Mogg has show his true colours.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Unsurprisingly the Brexiteers' hero Rees Mogg has show his true colours.

He's no hero of mine

 

[Sick Boy]

He's no hero of mine

I find it bizarre he seems to be so popular, the idea of him as PM is ludicrous.

 

[clint van damme]

I find it bizarre he seems to be so popular, the idea of him as PM is ludicrous.

when the alternative is Boris perhaps not so much!

 

[Sbarcher]

Oh come on chaps, RM would make a spiffing PM.

 

[Ashdown]

We already have this, we just choose not to enforce it.

Freedom of movement from other EU countries to the UK only applies to economically active (i.e. working) persons. Non economically active persons can only visit for 3 months, the same (or in many cases more restrictive) as we can visit other non-EU countries. To stay longer they would have to provide proof of finance and medical insurance coverage.

As an EU citizen freedom of movement to the UK doesn't apply if you aren't working or have little prospect of getting a job (i.e. unskilled).

EU citizens only acquire access to benefits in the UK they have been in work for a period of time.

We also have the right to suspend freedom of movement for seven years if a new country joins the EU.

So what additional rules do you want put in place and if those rules are put in place what will be different? At present the UK does not track the status of EU citizens and does not enforce the restrictions. That doesn't seem to me to be the fault of the EU or our membership of it.

I'm in agreement of your last paragraph for sure, the UK Govt. has been culpable of being slack. But the point I'm making is that there are still 2 million unemployed Brits, many relatively unskilled who should be taking much of the warehouse type employment that is currently being snaffled up by foreigners. I'm not saying that many of the EU and other foreign workers are not important to the UK but promoting our own unemployed over other countries unemployed should indeed be priority and legislation should come in to ensure that companies attempt to employ Brits first.

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm in agreement of your last paragraph for sure, the UK Govt. has been culpable of being slack. But the point I'm making is that there are still 2 million unemployed Brits, many relatively unskilled who should be taking much of the warehouse type employment that is currently being snaffled up by foreigners. I'm not saying that many of the EU and other foreign workers are not important to the UK but promoting our own unemployed over other countries unemployed should indeed be priority and legislation should come in to ensure that companies attempt to employ Brits first.

Problem is a lot of those 2 million won't take those warehouse, fruit picking, working in the service area type of jobs for numerous reasons from unwilling to move area to where those jobs are available (fair enough, it's up to them), see that type of work as beneath them (fair enough again, it's up to them) or simply just don't want to work and EU immigration is a convenient excuse to not have a job and probably another gazillion reasons in between. So that being the case we have a gap in our unskilled workforce as well as our skilled workforce. If someone is willing to come from Poland or wherever in the EU to fill that gap it's only good economical sense to allow them.

Today's announcement shows again what a nonsense the hysteria over EU immigration is. Take fruit pickers for example, come here, work for the summer, go home. How's today's announcement going to change that and make jobs available for the 2 million unemployed? It isn't, even if they were willing to take this seasonal work anyway, which they weren't on the whole hence the immigrant majority workforce.

Look at some of the other sectors like hotel and restaurants, warehousing etc. 3 years as unskilled, 5 as skilled. Who's going to police what is skilled and unskilled? If you have a forklift license are you skilled? Surely the majority of Eastern Europeans who work in a warehouse have a forklift license?

Then there's this whole 3-5 years thing. Most EU migrants that I've met were only ever going to be here 3-5 years anyway before going home set up for life. I'd love to know what the average length of stay is for an EU migrant is. I'm guessing that it's 3-5 years. I don't think that those figures were stumbled upon by accident. Sure some stay and settle permanently but they tend to be hard working and pay taxes so I can't understand why anyone would see that as a problem.

 

[fernandopartridge]

You have to wonder whether you're on the right side of the argument when those champions of the working classes the CBI and the Institute of Directors are wailing about the proposed changes.

 

[chiefdave]

Problem is a lot of those 2 million won't take those warehouse, fruit picking, working in the service area type of jobs for numerous reasons from unwilling to move area to where those jobs are available (fair enough, it's up to them), see that type of work as beneath them (fair enough again, it's up to them) or simply just don't want to work and EU immigration is a convenient excuse to not have a job and probably another gazillion reasons in between.

What should be looked at is why people won't take those jobs. Often its down to pay and conditions. There was a chap on Radio 4 recently who had voted leave but was getting worried that his fruit farm would have to close if unskilled workers aren't let in. He said he'd only ever had one British employee and they left after a day.

Company I work for does some work for a chain of luxury spas. Virtually all their staff are from Eastern Europe. They get paid minimum wage then charged for accommodation which is of an appalling standard and work ridiculous hours with little objection as the spas are all out in the middle of nowhere and they can't afford transport to take them anywhere. Nobody British is going to do that, the Eastern Europeans only do it as it works out OK for sending money back home but its a miserable life and really shouldn't be allowed.

There's a whole society of minimum wage, zero hour contract workers, both British and European that earn so little they are basically homeless. Sofa surfing where they can. At the same time the corporations are saying they can't afford wage increases, despite making millions if not billions in profit, and that any increase will lead to increased prices.

None of that is to do with the EU and the problems won't magically disappear when we leave.

 

[Grendel]

I find it bizarre he seems to be so popular, the idea of him as PM is ludicrous.

He himself finds it ludricous.

He's popular as like Corbyn and Johnson he appears different. He seems a character in a grey sea.

Are you referring to his interview on this morning? I thought he came across well. Certainly better than the squawking gay journalist who typically was crying about allowing free speech and debate on an issue he didn't concur with.

 

[Sick Boy]

He himself finds it ludricous.

He's popular as like Corbyn and Johnson he appears different. He seems a character in a grey sea.

Are you referring to his interview on this morning? I thought he came across well. Certainly better than the squawking gay journalist who typically was crying about allowing free speech and debate on an issue he didn't concur with.

Shocking. What's the problem with a woman's right to abortion, especially in the case of rape?

 

[Grendel]

Shocking. What's the problem with a woman's right to abortion, especially in the case of rape?

There isn't but there also isn't a problem in a free and tolerant society with expression of views is there?

 

[Sick Boy]

There isn't but there also isn't a problem in a free and tolerant society with expression of views is there?

I suppose, especially as it shows him up as the out of touch bigot that he really is.

 

[Ashdown]

you don't half talk some utter nonsense.

Really, have you seen the crime rates soaring and the lists of wanted by the police, MI5 increasing numbers every year to increase surveillance. Burglary, muggings and vandalism are more or less just being referred back to insurance companies.

 

[clint van damme]

Really, have you seen the crime rates soaring and the lists of wanted by the police, MI5 increasing numbers every year to increase surveillance. Burglary, muggings and vandalism are more or less just being referred back to insurance companies.

is that because of immigrants?
And that wasn't the thrust of the post I criticised.
These warehouse type jobs you're on about, immigrants aren't doing them at the expense of locals, they're doing them because the locals can't be arsed, I can tell you that through experience.
And if you think workers come here unchecked then you're misinformed. That doesn't mean there aren't those who circumnavigate the system but for the majority there are procedures in place to make sure they are eligible.
We don't house half of Europes undesirables, but of course there are some. A trip to the Costas or Amsterdam will tell you we export a few as well!

 

[Grendel]

I suppose, especially as it shows him up as the out of touch bigot that he really is.

But if he lived in a society which has his views as the vast majority the out of touch bigot is you.

It'a actually easy to see why he's popular as he gives his real opinion. We've been subjected to a succession of snake oil salesmen like the Blair creature, the hideous heir to Blair in Cameron and the robotic May it's not that difficult to see some reason for his popularity. I'd say the only principalled prime minister weve had since Callaghan was Major. Thatcher was a marketing invention. She was really a hopeless europhile and actually a better actor than Blair.

Corbyn was popular as he also was himself and people warmed to it. Now he believes in his own publicity he is developing many disengenuos traits.

Imagine if McDonnell succeeded him and was contesting against Reece-Mogg. That would be great. Tub thumping Marxism against a Conservative Party (it has existed only in name since the 60's)

Oh and whoever won at least we know they'd persue the hardest of Brexits with much enthusiasm

 

[Sick Boy]

But if he lived in a society which has his views as the vast majority the out of touch bigot is you.

It'a actually easy to see why he's popular as he gives his real opinion. We've been subjected to a succession of snake oil salesmen like the Blair creature, the hideous heir to Blair in Cameron and the robotic May it's not that difficult to see some reason for his popularity. I'd say the only principalled prime minister weve had since Callaghan was Major. Thatcher was a marketing invention. She was really a hopeless europhile and actually a better actor than Blair.

Corbyn was popular as he also was himself and people warmed to it. Now he believes in his own publicity he is developing many disengenuos traits.

Imagine if McDonnell succeeded him and was contesting against Reece-Mogg. That would be great. Tub thumping Marxism against a Conservative Party (it has existed only in name since the 60's)

Oh and whoever won at least we know they'd persue the hardest of Brexits with much enthusiasm

Get a grip of yourself. You're a father defending a man who would be against abortion in the case of rape.

Luckily we live in 2017 and things like gay marriage are widely supported by the general public.

Not sure what this has to do with JC, but oh well.

 

[lifeskyblue]

Even though I disagree fundamentally with JRM's views I do respect his right to hold them. Also, if I'm honest, I feel he is an honest and honourable politician (unlike odious chancer Boris) who, if he ever became Prime Minister, would do his utmost to govern according to his moral code. For some that is a big attraction...for others a nightmare.
In many ways, but for some different reasons, he is like Corbyn with those who love him and those who can't see why.


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