Sick Boy
Super Moderator
You're getting more and more Farage-like with each month that goes by!
See Europe? I though one of the many slogans of the leave campaign was 'love eu rope not the eu'?
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (16 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
You're getting more and more Farage-like with each month that goes by!
See Europe? I though one of the many slogans of the leave campaign was 'love eu rope not the eu'?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
What happened to your sneering predictions of a Tory landslide? May's/The Tories' lack of authority has made a final vote on the deal more than likely.
I'm just glad that the Tories will forever own Brexit.
Oh yes talking of sneering predictions you'll owe a charity of my choice £20 soon. I'm sure I'll find a worthwhile public school that needs the money.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Be worth every penny for the shambolic Tories to own this massive fuck up!!
Still, it was hardly as embarrassing as your absurd sneering of a Tory landslide and the end of Labour.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I honestly thought you were better than denying the people a say.
If you don't approve of referenda then fair enough... let's disregard the result of an advisory one, that didn't actually commit the government to anyone. If that makes you happy...
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I have to admit, I'm not very comfortable with the idea of a second referendum no matter how much my disdain for the leading brexit campaigners and the type of campaign they conducted.
I wasn't impressed by the way the Irish Government held a 2nd vote on the Lisbon treaty when the vote didn't go their way a few years ago so it would be hypocritical to support one on Brexit.
I agree with Sick boy as well, think this could be an albatross round tory necks for a long time to come.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I have absolutely no idea why we wouldn't have one to ratify we were actually happy with any deal made to leave the EU, given there were so many different reasons people voted as they did.
Sure if it's the great deal for the UK we've been promised, it'll be an overwhelming majority after all...
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Indeed! We were told there were so many advantages and that we would all be better off, so what's the problem?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
So now you quote Nigel Farage as the voice of reason
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Which is exactly what Robert Mugawbwe says when he gets the wrong result.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
We haven't had a result about the deal.
I never had you down as an autocrat anti-democrat, I thought you were better than being a clone of Franco.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Indeed. In fact in the 'second vote', 80% of those who voted, voted for a party who pledged to honour the result of the referendum.
It seems that's not enough for some.
Oh really...? Which one party or ones support a soft Brexit as policy? Or a hard Brexit? Or a medium Brexit? As far as I recall the election wasn't purely based on Brexit, and if it were, no party has committed itself 100% to a certain Brexit. No one knows how this going to pan out and everyone has a different opinion as to what Brexit entails. In these circumstances who can claim that the election was confirmation of anyone's wishes? I think it was more of a vote against the party that brought this Brexit nightmare upon us. You could argue that there was a lot of dissent against the Tories for their involvement with Brexit. Let's see what Brexit actually is and then vote on it.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
In the BBC today (2016 weekly figures)
£350m budgeted to the EU
£327m actual figure
-£75m rebate
-£87m subsidies
-£19m direct to U.K. private sector
=£146m per week
65.64m population estimate for 2016
That works out at £115m per head we pay annually to the EU.
Contrast that with figures from fullfact about Norway who contribute £740m annually with an estimated 12% of that coming back. Leaving a figure of £651.2m split between a poppulation of 5.23m - a total contribution of £125 per head. This is just for access to the EEA. They still have to abide by all EU regulations while have no say in them whatsoever. Still, they see this as a price worth paying for access to the worlds largest trading bloc, somewhere that Canada and Japan are desperate to be involved in.
To my mind I can see no sound economic logic to leaving the EU. We've been told that it will free us to make deals around the world, what happened when we tried to court India? They asked for visa requirements to be loosened meaning more migration.
I just can't see how we're better off outside the EU than in.
£350m budgeted to the EU
£327m actual figure
-£75m rebate
-£87m subsidies
-£19m direct to U.K. private sector
=£146m per week
65.64m population estimate for 2016
That works out at £115m per head we pay annually to the EU.
Contrast that with figures from fullfact about Norway who contribute £740m annually with an estimated 12% of that coming back. Leaving a figure of £651.2m split between a poppulation of 5.23m - a total contribution of £125 per head. This is just for access to the EEA. They still have to abide by all EU regulations while have no say in them whatsoever. Still, they see this as a price worth paying for access to the worlds largest trading bloc, somewhere that Canada and Japan are desperate to be involved in.
To my mind I can see no sound economic logic to leaving the EU. We've been told that it will free us to make deals around the world, what happened when we tried to court India? They asked for visa requirements to be loosened meaning more migration.
I just can't see how we're better off outside the EU than in.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
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made the point about Indias immigration requirements to someone at work. We may end up cutting free movement fro EU citizens but relaxing it for those from India.
I a little confused about Canada as well. The EU has agreed this new CETA deal with Canada which will see 98% of trade tariffs removed.
Does this mean that the best we an hope for if a totally free trade agreement and if so. is that 2% really wroth the hassle?
May has also said she wants to pursue a similar deal with Japan as the EU has negotiated with them in principal which is tariff free - again, how do we improve on a tariff free deal?
I may be looking at this all wrong and I don't know the finer details but I can't help but think this whole process isn't really going to take us forward.
made the point about Indias immigration requirements to someone at work. We may end up cutting free movement fro EU citizens but relaxing it for those from India.
I a little confused about Canada as well. The EU has agreed this new CETA deal with Canada which will see 98% of trade tariffs removed.
Does this mean that the best we an hope for if a totally free trade agreement and if so. is that 2% really wroth the hassle?
May has also said she wants to pursue a similar deal with Japan as the EU has negotiated with them in principal which is tariff free - again, how do we improve on a tariff free deal?
I may be looking at this all wrong and I don't know the finer details but I can't help but think this whole process isn't really going to take us forward.
That's what's always struck me.
It's no more than a cheap house insurance policy or a monthly subscription to a quality magazine etc.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I honestly believe the vote was not an economical one whatsoever. It was a cultural one combined with an up yours to the establishment.
Maybe there is a thought that we will be worse short term but better long term economic wise, but if you are trying to make sense of the vote or argue staying in is better, I think you are looking in the wrong place if you're going down the economics route. Not saying you're wrong at all by the way.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
If what you're saying is correct re the reasons for the vote, and I suspect it is, then the claims made by the foreign secretary can only be viewed as personally politically motivated. In what possible world does he think now is a good time to start undermining the PM. I'm no Conservative, as you know, so the infighting looks good for Labour but how the man can put himself before his party and his country is beyond me.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
yet there are plenty of people who voted Breixt who say the exact opposite. I actually think you're assessment is more accurate.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
...and this is probably the most pertinent question of all.
I must say I did smile when the preening Barnier smugly announced that all he could hear was a clock ticking...how profound.
At this moment in time the EU is pulling together and the British government is fighting itself over what Brexit means. BoJo being the latest example. So Barnier can watch and wait...
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Ahhh yes, Britain was supposed to be the first to leave the crumbling bloc. What happened to the Brexiteers' predictions of Austria, Holland and France joining them? If anything, Brexit will make the EU even more unified.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Assume you got your wish, & the deal was rejected. Then we would need to negotiate another & another & another etc. OR have another in/out referendum.
The fact is that if that resulted in an 'in' vote it would not simply just be a sigh of relief & business as usual. It would be as much chaos as is predicted for Brexit. Things offered in negotiations would be used as vehicles for ongoing negotiations over other stuff & all sides would lose just the same.
We are leaving the EU...that is the mentality we (in the UK) have to accept
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SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
I remember hearing Cameron & the remain team saying as part of project fear that this is "a one-off in or out referendum".
There was no talk of having to ratify previous negotiations on deals with EU. Just a vote in Parliament at best.
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Astute
Well-Known Member
I won a lot of money on people voting to leave. I won a lot of money on the Tories not getting the majority.
So what experts are you going on about? Those who said that if we voted leave that the unemployment rate would go through the roof and interest rates would rocket?
Astute
Well-Known Member
Oh yes. Forgot all is well in the EU.
Not even Germany are happy with the way Juncker is trying to take it. And they benefit the most.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
True, but wage contraction is appalling and growth is poor compared to other G7 countries,(though there is still economic growth).
I've said it before, the economic indicators are very mixed at the moment and I don't think they currently point in any particular direction with regard to the health of the economy.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
I certainly didn't think about economic argument in the way posters above do, the net wealth of the country is one thing but I was more concerned about suppression of wages for the 20% of the workforce with the lowest qualifications, combined with which I want the benefits culture to be driven back. I say if you are capable of work then you should work & contribute to society or pay your own way and not get state handouts for year after year.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
The Tories will ensure wage suppression continues and the wealth gap continues to widen whether we are in or our of the EU.
As for benefit culture, our welfare spend is relatively low and would be even lower if we didn't have to pay benefits to working people who can't afford to live on their wages, we are effectively subsidising the companies profits.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Oh dear.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Couldn't agree more on that. I personally think the infighting makes us look like idiots when it comes to the negotiations. I'm not sure however, if that is because we have some avid remainers there who obviously want things to go in a different direction, I expect that is probably a factor.
You're both going to hate this, but I'd rather have a consortium led by Farrage leading the talks. It might not be smooth (would it be anyway?). but at least he would know what he was talking about and would hold the EU to account, whilst also trying to get the best outcome for us.
Brexit is very hard, especially when a proportion of the country are siding with the EU over everything no matter what it is. I do honestly believe most people would have voted to leave due to cultural and establishment reasons rather than economical, with most knowing that we aren't going to be immediately richer (at the very best). As I've said before, I bet a lot of those also did so due to the refugee quotas and the Merkel policy, which we have seen has come back to bite us in the last few days.
The problem is, and I have said this before too, is that there was so much backlash and harassment before and after the vote, that people are scared to speak out on why they voted, or what they want, because they get branded as racist and bigoted etc, which simply isn't the case. It's a big problem, and why I always bang on about it. We can't have an honest debate otherwise.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Farage is a bigot, as well as a hypocrite, that's undeniable. He's the last man who should be anywhere near the negotiations, I'd even keep boris there ahead of him.
What is he going to hold the EU to account for? Whatever your view of the EU this isn't time for anyone to hold anyone to account, this is a time for grown up negotiations to try and get the best deal possible that is acceptable to both parties.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
His claims during the referendum debate suggest otherwise.
However you also get people such as kingofkings saying nonsensical things such as 'Brexit means Brexit' and that everybody knew they were voting for a hard Brexit when they went to the polls. This too, stymies debate, and silences not just the more moderate outers, but the more moderate remainers too. As with, well... just about everything, there's probably a consensus to be had in the moderate areas of both parties, where pragmatism takes over, and a culture of trying to work with the EU comes into play and deals are made because they're as good as they're likely to get, not because of ideological dictat. That, then, allows for a 'better' deal going forward as people aren't working against one another, and aren't polarised. Push people into corners, they bite against things.