The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (4 Viewers)

[Astute]

Apologies, haven't seen you mention that. NI doing so would make this a lot easier and likely mean checks or people to the mainland could be implemented as well.

Ireland being an island gives all sorts of possibilities. We shouldn't discount anything.

Now it is all down to making the best out of a shit situation. Both leave and remain voters should want the same. What is best going forward for the UK.

Many wonder why the talks are not going forward. But all you have to do is look at what is happening on a football forum. Some still haven't been able to move on from the vote that was well over a year ago.

 

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[Sick Boy]

Ireland being an island gives all sorts of possibilities. We shouldn't discount anything.

Now it is all down to making the best out of a shit situation. Both leave and remain voters should want the same. What is best going forward for the UK.

Many wonder why the talks are not going forward. But all you have to do is look at what is happening on a football forum. Some still haven't been able to move on from the vote that was well over a year ago.

That way well have been easier if the government appeared to have a clue about it was doing. So far it has been an utter shambles and they don't appear to have bee doing a lot since the vote. I'm still incredibly concerned about the polarisation of the country in the long-term, I expect I will increase once those with an attachment to the EU have their rights revoked. Let's hope that the UK government actually considers the prospect of associate citizenship for those who want it. I expect you'd end up getting one too.

 

[martcov]

A decent post ruined by the last line.

I say again. It isn't millions of Euro's they are after. It is billions.

The EU divorce bill

Hope this explains it to you a bit.

Yes, I have edited it. I meant billions. And according to your link it will be hard to give an accurate bill in a short time. Partly because some things won’t happen until years in the future. For example the UK shares of guaranteeing loans that the EU want in advance. We will have to wait until the loans are repaid to be clear of the liabilities and get our money back, or if we don’t pay in advance, we may get more bills in the future if the creditor countries cannot or will not pay.

You can also see the projects designed to create cohesion by raising living standards in recently joined countries. Something you would probably like if it was applied to the country you went on holiday to. These projects, if successful, would create wealth for, say, Romanians at home thus reducing migration to the UK. in the future.

Knocking these projects by not honouring commitments would be a very selfish and shortsighted move.

 

[Astute]

Here's what Tony said:

"Will we be able to make a free trade agreement with India without relaxing control of our border with India beyond what it is currently as an EU member state?"

He was talking about relaxation of the border not open border, that's what India want in return for a favourable trade deal and stated so during Mays visit.

That was not the only comment made on the subject.

It has been funny at times on here looking at what has been said. Sometimes I have been left wondering if the truth has been twisted or the person actually thinks they are right.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

No one in Ireland deserves this. We have a GFA which assumes we are in the EU. By leaving we’re breaking the agreement. There may well be violence if there is a hard border. The Brexiteers caused this problem. The government could solve the problem by leaving NI in the Customs Union as suggested by the EU. But, they cannot because they are reliant on the DUP.

There is always a way. They will find one if they want it enough

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[martcov]

Try to not look at it through pro EU goggles.

Ireland should be treated as one country. Nobody should want any risk of past atrocities returning. So who wants a hard border splitting the country into two?

The UK certainly doesn't want a hard border. I would love to see the day that Ireland could be fully united. Just like what happened with Germany.

So who holds all the cards on how borders will look like? It certainly isn't the Irish or the UK government.

Yet you try and blame it all on those who voted to leave.

It is the British government. They only have to allow Northern Ireland to keep its customs union status. If they decide to pull NI out of the customs union, which they will because the DUP has said they won’t allow NI to stay in as it is going too far in the direction of a United Ireland, then there will be a Hard border. The DUP determines how long the Conservatives remain in power which gives them disproportionate leverage.

The EU wants all Ireland in the customs union as a sea border is easier to control.

You seem to be on the side of the EU on this one.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Yes it is...or rather could be construed as a reason. Brexit is certainly a reason for being discontent.

No it isn't - nobody knows what it will look like properly yet. And discontent is not a reason for violence

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[martcov]

That was not the only comment made on the subject.

It has been funny at times on here looking at what has been said. Sometimes I have been left wondering if the truth has been twisted or the person actually thinks they are right.

Not unusual on this thread as is apparently not understanding when it suits.

 

[Astute]

That way well have been easier if the government appeared to have a clue about it was doing. So far it has been an utter shambles and they don't appear to have bee doing a lot since the vote. I'm still incredibly concerned about the polarisation of the country in the long-term, I expect I will increase once those with an attachment to the EU have their rights revoked. Let's hope that the UK government actually considers the prospect of associate citizenship for those who want it. I expect you'd end up getting one too.

I agree. They seem to be inept at best.

But it comes down to many things. Those who are dealing with leaving didn't want to leave. Those in the EU didn't want us to leave. So those dealing with the finer points of us leaving don't want it to happen. Not a good starting point.

The EU will need every Euro out of us they can get. We can't afford to give every Euro they are after. We will have major restructuring to do before we even start on what we need for our present population to have a decent standard of living. And this is without knowing what sort of deal will happen after the monetary side of leaving will cost.

You see school playgrounds where the kids act more like adults than those involved in this mess.

 

[martcov]

No it isn't - nobody knows what it will look like properly yet. And discontent is not a reason for violence

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I am not saying violence is right, but there were discontented people who were using violence before the GFA. If we pull NI out of the customs union we will breaking the spirit and maybe the letter of the agreement by creating a customs border which would otherwise not have existed.

That is a pretty bad breach of faith and a good excuse for bad people to resort to violence to protest it.

 

[clint van damme]

That was not the only comment made on the subject.

It has been funny at times on here looking at what has been said. Sometimes I have been left wondering if the truth has been twisted or the person actually thinks they are right.

OK. Just looked at the comment you quoted, haven't got time to trawl through the whole lot.

 

[Astute]

Yes, I have edited it. I meant billions. And according to your link it will be hard to give an accurate bill in a short time. Partly because some things won’t happen until years in the future. For example the UK shares of guaranteeing loans that the EU want in advance. We will have to wait until the loans are repaid to be clear of the liabilities and get our money back, or if we don’t pay in advance, we may get more bills in the future if the creditor countries cannot or will not pay.

You can also see the projects designed to create cohesion by raising living standards in recently joined countries. Something you would probably like if it was applied to the country you went on holiday to. These projects, if successful, would create wealth for, say, Romanians at home thus reducing migration to the UK. in the future.

Knocking these projects by not honouring commitments would be a very selfish and shortsighted move.

So where have I said that we shouldn't pay for commitments already made?

But the EU is after much more. The link I put up gives an idea.

We had already put in the money that has gone out in loans through our payments to the EU. Now they want us to guarantee that this money comes back to the EU from loans we didn't make but had contributed to.

 

[Sick Boy]

I agree. They seem to be inept at best.

But it comes down to many things. Those who are dealing with leaving didn't want to leave. Those in the EU didn't want us to leave. So those dealing with the finer points of us leaving don't want it to happen. Not a good starting point.

The EU will need every Euro out of us they can get. We can't afford to give every Euro they are after. We will have major restructuring to do before we even start on what we need for our present population to have a decent standard of living. And this is without knowing what sort of deal will happen after the monetary side of leaving will cost.

You see school playgrounds where the kids act more like adults than those involved in this mess.

David Davis has been a long term Eurosceptic. I suppose the devaluation of the £ is going to end up costing the UK even more when it comes to paying the final bill.

 

[martcov]

So where have I said that we shouldn't pay for commitments already made?

But the EU is after much more. The link I put up gives an idea.

We had already put in the money that has gone out in loans through our payments to the EU. Now they want us to guarantee that this money comes back to the EU from loans we didn't make but had contributed to.

We agreed the loans and should get our money back - or rather the EU including us. But we don’t know for sure and if the countries don’t pay we share the loss as we were part of the lender.

 

[Astute]

It is the British government. They only have to allow Northern Ireland to keep its customs union status. If they decide to pull NI out of the customs union, which they will because the DUP has said they won’t allow NI to stay in as it is going too far in the direction of a United Ireland, then there will be a Hard border. The DUP determines how long the Conservatives remain in power which gives them disproportionate leverage.

The EU wants all Ireland in the customs union as a sea border is easier to control.

You seem to be on the side of the EU on this one.

Maybe you will understand soon that I am not pro or anti EU. We look as though we are leaving the EU. So now I want what is best for the residents of the UK. This includes those who have come here to live and those who have gone to live elsewhere in the EU.

 

[Grendel]

David Davis has been a long term Eurosceptic. I suppose the devaluation of the £ is going to end up costing the UK even more when it comes to paying the final bill.

Why?

 

[Astute]

Not unusual on this thread as is apparently not understanding when it suits.

And you are innocent of this :smuggrin:

 

[Sick Boy]

Sadly the DUP have already said that they will not tolerate being kept in the CU.

 

[Astute]

David Davis has been a long term Eurosceptic. I suppose the devaluation of the £ is going to end up costing the UK even more when it comes to paying the final bill.

More guesswork I see. Nobody knows which way it will go. But just state it as a fact and have the German agree as usual

 

[Sick Boy]

Why?

Because it will be paid in €

 

[Captain Dart]

He is in effect a senior civil servant. He doesn’t have to be elected. Maybe we should have a Professional leading out negotiating team? We might get a better deal.

Nonsense, he is an politician appointed to a top job by other politicians, members of a self perpetuating oligarchy.

 

[Grendel]

Because it will be paid in €

You just think we pay at the exchange at the time do you and it's paid in one go?

 

[Astute]

We agreed the loans and should get our money back - or rather the EU including us. But we don’t know for sure and if the countries don’t pay we share the loss as we were part of the lender.

When did we agree to any loans? We just paid for them. We never had a say in the matter.

So where did the money come from to loan to them to start with?

 

[Sick Boy]

You just think we pay at the exchange at the time do you and it's paid in one go?

No of course not but we are more likely to see € for £ in the long term for a while, which I thought was hailed as something glorious?

 

[Grendel]

No of course not but we are more likely to see € for £ in the long term for a while, which I thought was hailed as something glorious?

Why long term?

 

[Astute]

Sadly the DUP have already said that they will not tolerate being kept in the CU.

And they would have the final say in anything?

I still say that after Brexit there will be an immediate general election. And that is if May can keep it all together until then.

 

[Astute]

No of course not but we are more likely to see € for £ in the long term for a while, which I thought was hailed as something glorious?

Bu who? Where?

Another true fact that is a lie.

 

[skybluetony176]

Why long term?

The exchange rate might have something to do with it. It’s being suggested that we’ll pay it off over a number of agreed years so the cost of settling the bill is going to fluctuate given it’s likely to be a € amount.

 

[Sick Boy]

Bu who? Where?

Another true fact that is a lie.

I can't be bothered to go through the thread for those praising the devaluation and that the £ was too high anyway.

 

[Astute]

The exchange rate might have something to do with it. It’s being suggested that we’ll pay it off over a number of agreed years so the cost of settling the bill is going to fluctuate given it’s likely to be a € amount.

And you know that the exchange rate won't go the other way over the years even if your massive guess on the short term comes true?

 

[Astute]

I can't be bothered to go through the thread for those praising the devaluation and that the £ was too high anyway.

You never can be bothered to look for anything that proves you wrong.

I have made many comments on the subject. But you need to understand economics before you understand what has been said.

A devalued currency makes products being sold cheaper. So sales made to other currencies grow. This then strengthens the currency.

This is why claims that the £ will crash and stay low for many years are ludicrous. Or made by someone who doesn't have a clue.

And it is the same reason why Germany has a massive advantage with the Euro and the poorer countries in the Euro will never be able to compete.

 

[chiefdave]

They don't have a clue. They are plucking figures out of the sky. There is no detailed bill and no acknowledge we have spent hundred of billions since we joined for "free trade"

The EU have published their positon so I don't see them as making it up as they go along:
Position paper transmitted to the UK: essential principles on the financial settlement

As far as I can tell we haven't published our version.

 

[Astute]

The EU have published their positon so I don't see them as making it up as they go along:
Position paper transmitted to the UK: essential principles on the financial settlement

As far as I can tell we haven't published our version.

So if they have published their position how much do they say the UK owes?

Oh yes. We don't have the exact numbers. Most probably don't have a clue on some of them. Yet we are supposed to know what we are negotiating against.

And is all of it what we should pay or is some of it put in there to muddy the waters?

Not as simple as you make out Dave.

 

[skybluetony176]

And you know that the exchange rate won't go the other way over the years even if your massive guess on the short term comes true?

I haven’t massive guessed anything. I’ve stated that exchange rates fluctuate, which they do. There’s plenty of data out there if you don’t believe me. Log onto the BBC’s business page and you will find a link to markets. You can compare the pounds performance on the world stage against a few dozen different currencies over a twelve month period. The difference of a few cents to pennies could easily alter the amount of pounds we could have to pay on instalments by millions of pounds. Could be in our favour but equally could be to our detriment.

 

[Astute]

David Davis has been a long term Eurosceptic. I suppose the devaluation of the £ is going to end up costing the UK even more when it comes to paying the final bill.

No of course not but we are more likely to see € for £ in the long term for a while, which I thought was hailed as something glorious?

I haven’t massive guessed anything. I’ve stated that exchange rates fluctuate, which they do. There’s plenty of data out there if you don’t believe me. Log onto the BBC’s business page and you will find a link to markets. You can compare the pounds performance on the world stage against a few dozen different currencies over a twelve month period. The difference of a few cents to pennies could easily alter the amount of pounds we could have to pay on instalments by millions of pounds. Could be in our favour but equally could be to our detriment.

Not me who needs lessons in exchange rates and how they move. You quoted the wrong person