The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (64 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

population of germany 2017 - Google Search

And

population of uk 2017 - Google Search

Germanys population has been steady for years. It goes up and down by a small amount each year. After ours shooting up it is now steady at going up by over half a milliin a year. So yes ours is catching up.

Apart from a couple of years ago, eh?

 

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[martcov]

You didn’t answer my question. Why?

I shall answer yours and I repeat I agree with what you said in theory but it’s not the reality. Eastern Europeans who work in these many many car washes we see now aren’t paid £7.20 an hour. So you’re theory goes out the window straight away.

The government does decide or national wage yes but also the solution of £10 an hour and raising another £3 an hour makes Britain more attractive and therefore more people come again. Where do they live? We have a housing crisis. Where is the infrastructure? Railways and roads? Nhs can’t cope already?

It’s a balancing act and I stated before in Bulgaria or Romania the living wage is £1-2 an hour. So it’s not hard to understand why they all come here and then send their money home to their family to support them. I don’t blame any of them but I do blame the rules and coming out the EU (if we have a strong government) can stop it.

It might even raise wages in this country which are massively depressed since open doors in 2004 and living standard for many others.

So what if Britain becomes attractive and people earn good money. If EU migrants come and there are no jobs then £10,00 an hour doesn’t help them. If there are loads of jobs great. I wouldn’t be relying on „it might raise wages“. Let the government enforce a £10,00 mw and then we’re theoretically all happy. Or do you prefer people live in poverty to frighten off EU migrants? I think you forgot to mention the crisis of 2008 which is a reason for depressed wages and austerity.

 

[martcov]

No but open door immigration is and that’s my point. The unskilled labour market such as car cleaners and fruit pickers is massively over subscribed hence the stagnation on wages throughout the country. Someone is willing to do it cheaper basically. Not to mention housing and infrastructure and nhs.

What fruit do they pick in the winter? Are you worried about car cleaning? Whose wages are they holding down? Are there loads of unemployed British car cleaners?

 

[martcov]

In this graph both are growing at similar rates.

bevölkerung deutschland - Google-Suche

 

[clint van damme]

No but open door immigration is and that’s my point. The unskilled labour market such as car cleaners and fruit pickers is massively over subscribed hence the stagnation on wages throughout the country. Someone is willing to do it cheaper basically. Not to mention housing and infrastructure and nhs.

Not sure that's true about fruit pickers.
This article may not refer specifically to fruit but it is the same story over in Norfolk with regards to crops in general.
I'd imagine the only way to recruit from the indigenous population will to be to up the money and the increase will be passed onto the consumer.

Worried Cornwall asks Government for help after voting Brexit

 

[skybluetony176]

You didn’t answer my question. Why?

I shall answer yours and I repeat I agree with what you said in theory but it’s not the reality. Eastern Europeans who work in these many many car washes we see now aren’t paid £7.20 an hour. So you’re theory goes out the window straight away.

The government does decide or national wage yes but also the solution of £10 an hour and raising another £3 an hour makes Britain more attractive and therefore more people come again. Where do they live? We have a housing crisis. Where is the infrastructure? Railways and roads? Nhs can’t cope already?

It’s a balancing act and I stated before in Bulgaria or Romania the living wage is £1-2 an hour. So it’s not hard to understand why they all come here and then send their money home to their family to support them. I don’t blame any of them but I do blame the rules and coming out the EU (if we have a strong government) can stop it.

It might even raise wages in this country which are massively depressed since open doors in 2004 and living standard for many others.

I did answer your question. It’s an issue with enforcement. Again the government can address this should they wish.

Britain would still be less attractive than at least half a dozen other EU countries when you compare the U.K. minimum wage to others and the numbers have always reflected the amount of jobs available, there’s zero evidence that more would come for the simple reason that if there isn’t a job for them the minimum wage rising to £10 is irrelevant. Zero hours equals zero pounds. Although by your own logic it wouldn’t effect it anyway because if I get out of my house non of the Eastern Europeans are earning minimum wage anyway according to you.

It won’t stop anything. The economy produces more jobs than the country can supply so unless you’re willing to accept a major slowdown in the U.K. economy and the pitfalls that come with it the country needs immigrant workers to keep the economy moving and help do things like pay off the national debt. The only thing I suspect is going to change is the demographic of the migrants. Less EU more third world. And I wouldn’t be at all surprised if this forces net migration goes up. The majority of EU immigrants are only here for a short number of years before returning home. Some only come for the summer. It’s a conveyor belt. Are you telling me that a third world immigrant will be rushing home after a summer picking fruit? Or three years after arriving having set themselves up (by third world standards) for life? I doubt it.

 

[Astute]

It is a two way thing anyway. We are part of Europe. We share history and culture. And, we were in an economic union which benefited us.

We benefited a lot more from our colonies than from Europe.

 

[Astute]

Good news, Hammond has found the magic money tree and there's £3bn to plan for a no deal exit from the EU.

Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

Barnier wants us to agree to what we will pay for. But he won't say how much it will cost. We would find that out at the end of all negotiations. Would you be happy if the amount was 100 billion? We are offering a lot of money. But it isn't getting accepted. What is that telling you?

 

[Astute]

Apart from a couple of years ago, eh?

The last 4 years has been about the same.

 

[Astute]

Not sure that's true about fruit pickers.
This article may not refer specifically to fruit but it is the same story over in Norfolk with regards to crops in general.
I'd imagine the only way to recruit from the indigenous population will to be to up the money and the increase will be passed onto the consumer.

Worried Cornwall asks Government for help after voting Brexit

The supermarkets would have to take a hit or we would pay slightly more. If it meant a living wage then where is the problem?

 

[martcov]

We benefited a lot more from our colonies than from Europe.

Yes, we plundered them. Good idea. Try it in Europe.

 

[chiefdave]

Barnier wants us to agree to what we will pay for. But he won't say how much it will cost. We would find that out at the end of all negotiations. Would you be happy if the amount was 100 billion? We are offering a lot of money. But it isn't getting accepted. What is that telling you?

Reading the EU's position paper what they are asking doesn't seem unreasonable. The difficultly is we haven't published our own so its hard to compare and obviously its dealing with things that none of us are experts on.

Don't really have a problem with them not giving a fixed figure given the way it is being calculated. They would have to follow the agreed formula so they wouldn't be able to just randomly increase it.

What payments in the EU's position paper do you not agree we should be paying?

 

[Astute]

Yes, we plundered them. Good idea. Try it in Europe.

They are plundering us. Now Barnier wants to fuck us over a barrel.

 

[Astute]

Reading the EU's position paper what they are asking doesn't seem unreasonable. The difficultly is we haven't published our own so its hard to compare and obviously its dealing with things that none of us are experts on.

Don't really have a problem with them not giving a fixed figure given the way it is being calculated. They would have to follow the agreed formula so they wouldn't be able to just randomly increase it.

What payments in the EU's position paper do you not agree we should be paying?

So how is it being calculated?

How many things do they want us to pay for after 2020 which is after what we have agreed to?

How many more years do they want us to keep paying into the gravy tainers pensions?

How many years are we supposed to give them money to loan out to other countries?

 

[SIR ERNIE]

we should have funded refugee camps in the first safe country.

That's exactly what we did:

David Cameron: EU countries must do more to fund refugee camps
(selected for you Guardian lovers)

Shame the EU didn't follow our example.

 

[Sick Boy]

We benefited a lot more from our colonies than from Europe.

Shocking.

 

[Sick Boy]

They are plundering us. Now Barnier wants to fuck us over a barrel.

LOL

 

[Astute]

LOL

Must be true as you don't have a reply.

 

[Astute]

Shocking.

So what is shocking?

They went to war with us when we were up against Germany twice after they had gone through the rest of Europe.

As it goes yes it is shocking.

 

[skybluetony176]

So what is shocking?

They went to war with us when we were up against Germany twice after they had gone through the rest of Europe.

As it goes yes it is shocking.

They’re former colonies not our colonies. We did plunder them for anything from spices to minerals to slavery. The culture there also helped shape our culture today which some on here seem to resent happening again. The commonwealth meant bringing all the wealth back to England. People think we’re being invaded, try telling that to an aboriginal or Native American and see how long it takes them to stop laughing at you and you’re definition of invaded. And yes a lot of our former colonies fought with us against the Nazi’s and liberated the countries that the Nazis occupied but there is a certain sense of irony in that.

Just to add that a big part of the reason we succeeded in the Second World War was down to the great Winston Churchill. By the way the EU was his idea.

 

[chiefdave]

So how is it being calculated?

How many things do they want us to pay for after 2020 which is after what we have agreed to?

How many more years do they want us to keep paying into the gravy tainers pensions?

How many years are we supposed to give them money to loan out to other countries?

The EU's position is not for ongoing payments, they want a single payment to cover budget commitment, termination of membership of all institutions and already committed payments to specific funds.

The basis for the calculation is

This single financial settlement should be based on the principle that the United Kingdom must honour its share of the financing of all the obligations undertaken while it was a member of the Union. The United Kingdom obligations should be fixed as a percentage of the EU obligations calculated at the date of withdrawal in accordance with a methodology to be agreed in the first phase of the negotiations.

Again what specifically in the EU's published position do you believe we should not agree to?

 

[Astute]

The EU's position is not for ongoing payments, they want a single payment to cover budget commitment, termination of membership of all institutions and already committed payments to specific funds.

The basis for the calculation is

Again what specifically in the EU's published position do you believe we should not agree to?

How many years worth of payments do they want was the question. 2020 is not a cut off point to them.

 

[Astute]

They’re former colonies not our colonies. We did plunder them for anything from spices to minerals to slavery. The culture there also helped shape our culture today which some on here seem to resent happening again. The commonwealth meant bringing all the wealth back to England. People think we’re being invaded, try telling that to an aboriginal or Native American and see how long it takes them to stop laughing at you and you’re definition of invaded. And yes a lot of our former colonies fought with us against the Nazi’s and liberated the countries that the Nazis occupied but there is a certain sense of irony in that.

Just to add that a big part of the reason we succeeded in the Second World War was down to the great Winston Churchill. By the way the EU was his idea.

So you agree but try to word it as though you don't.

So Winston Churchill would be happy with the was a common market has spiralled out of control?

 

[Sick Boy]

So what is shocking?

They went to war with us when we were up against Germany twice after they had gone through the rest of Europe.

As it goes yes it is shocking.

I was talking about the content of your post.

 

[Grendel]

So you agree but try to word it as though you don't.

So Winston Churchill would be happy with the was a common market has spiralled out of control?

The common market was a free trade arrangement. We had no indication of the politicisation of Europe and no say in subsequent implantation of Maastricht and Lisbon.

 

[martcov]

So how is it being calculated?

How many things do they want us to pay for after 2020 which is after what we have agreed to?

How many more years do they want us to keep paying into the gravy tainers pensions?

How many years are we supposed to give them money to loan out to other countries?

We have loaned other countries money over many years - together with the EU. Our liability stays until the loans are repaid. Who is talking about making loans in the future?

 

[martcov]

The common market was a free trade arrangement. We had no indication of the politicisation of Europe and no say in subsequent implantation of Maastricht and Lisbon.

Really? How stupid do you think our governments were?

 

[Grendel]

We have loaned other countries money over many years - together with the EU. Our liability stays until the loans are repaid. Who is talking about making loans in the future?

That sentence makes no sense. If we’ve loaned countries money how are we liable? Surely we are owed money?

 

[Grendel]

Really? How stupid do you think our governments were?

Another senseless comment.

 

[martcov]

So you agree but try to word it as though you don't.

So Winston Churchill would be happy with the was a common market has spiralled out of control?

It hasn’t spiralled out of control.

 

[martcov]

Another senseless comment.

Actually you are quite good at senseless comments, so maybe I have to accept your opinion as an expert on the subject..

 

[martcov]

That sentence makes no sense. If we’ve loaned countries money how are we liable? Surely we are owed money?

We are liable if they don’t pay the money back. Then we share the loss.

 

[Grendel]

We are liable if they don’t pay the money back. Then we share the loss.

Incredible. Well that’s surely a written down loss anyway and would be over a period of over 20 years. So in the interim we’d gain in interest and any payments made.

 

[martcov]

Incredible. Well that’s surely a written down loss anyway and would be over a period of over 20 years. So in the interim we’d gain in interest and any payments made.

The Ukraine has a large credit over many years. It is paying it back. Should things go wrong „we“ won’t get our money back. That is when a loss occurs. We have to agree to cover our share of the loss. As an example.

 

[clint van damme]

The supermarkets would have to take a hit or we would pay slightly more. If it meant a living wage then where is the problem?

for me personally none, for someone already struggling to feed their family, it could be an issue I'd imagine.
And there's no way the supermarkets will take the hit. They're greedy wankers whose profits are already taking a battering due to the budget supermarkets.