The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (270 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

But what I am saying is right.

Is it? Why? Because yo say so? Grendull says you’re right also but then provides evidence that actually when analysed says the opposite. As always the devil is in the detail.

 

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[martcov]

Unlike you who twists everything into something to attack the EU, while bizarrely claiming to be neutral in the whole debate. I guess you can never be wrong up their on the fence though.

That is what is so bizarre. No one jumps up and down as much Astute- not even Farage fan K of K.

 

[skybluetony176]

In other words no one had a clue about the „whole“ of what they were voting for and now cannot handle being criticised for the current mess.

If you make a major decision and it looks like going pear shaped, you have to take the responsibility. If it was going well, you would take the glory of having made the right decision. Until things start looking better you will be criticised.

You may be right in the end, but for now you are going to be called out for the decision.

It’s democracy, get over it,

Stop being negative. If it fails it will be your fault not the fault of the people who voted for it blah blah blah

 

[skybluetony176]

UK's Brexit offer worth up to 50bn euros

The BBC’s coverage is quite good. Points out things like MEP and EU staff pension contributions. Presumably Farage, other UKIP MEP’s and staff are going to waiver their rights to there’s as they want no part of the euro gravy train.

 

[Kingokings204]

You voted for border controls. As it is there are none in Ireland. What do you want? Border controls or no border controls?

Border controls for Britain. Clear enough even for you now?

Not Britain and Ireland. It was made clear in the referendum no one wanted Ireland and the peace process to change.

 

[Kingokings204]

You don’t get democracy do you? Just because you voted doesn’t mean you cannot be criticised. That is a dictator attitude. I think you should read up on democracy and democratic responsibility.

You were the one telling me to “be ashamed” for having my vote. That sir is dictatorship.

 

[martcov]

Border controls for Britain. Clear enough even for you now?

Not Britain and Ireland. It was made clear in the referendum no one wanted Ireland and the peace process to change.

Oh great. The referendum only asked UK citizens what they wanted. It didn’t go into details as to how these things would work and no one consulted the people sharing our land border with the EU.

Show me a voting slip where it clearly states what would happen with Ireland, or a joint paper from ROI and UK explaining what you claim was made clear.

 

[martcov]

You were the one telling me to “be ashamed” for having my vote. That sir is dictatorship.

No it isn’t. In a democracy there is always an opposition. In this referendum the remoaners are the opposition. The ones who call the opposition fucking pricks and say „get over it“ when criticised are the wannabe dictators.

Note: I also say „get over it“, but that is sarcasm to make my point about your hypocrisy.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Yes, because people were led to believe millions of refugees were coming to the UK as a result. A lie backed up by some turd standing in front of a massive nazi style Poster of Syrian refugees crossing into Croatia.

They were told that Merkel was ruling the EU from Brussels and the UK would end up having to take millions of non EU refugees.

It never happened. Merkel received little support from the other EU countries as regards sharing the responsibility under the Geneva Convention in the absence of an EU refugee policy, other than the basic Dublin agreement. Which sort of confirms that Merkel doesn’t control the EU and that we have control over our borders - despite what some say on here.

But still people believed the poster and what the turd said.

Are you serious? You believe that this migration is not an issue, and that it is just another right wing conspiracy theory? This is another reason, on top of Merkel's insane policy, why people voted leave. People like you, people in power, and much of the media are completely ignoring the crime wave that has come with this 'invasion' and try to water it down at every opportunity. It's insanely frustrating and complete nonsense.

Merkel received little support? FFS. The EU have been threatening sanctions against Poland and Hungary for not taking the migrants.

Like you blame the bus, the poster was little to do with it. People are waking up to what is happening, and a poster is not something that has done that. Europe is changing due to the introduction of third world migrants on mass. You might live in Germany, but I go there regularly and the bile you are serving up is not something that checks out. Likewise in Sweden. The most shocking thing is the outright denial.

Look at the woman who got raped in Sweden by 20 migrants a week or so ago. That only just reached the main stream media, who have been ignoring everything else going on there. Here's another one, a grenade attack on a police station in Uppsala - I've found an English article for you to read and deny: Police suspect they were targeted in Uppsala hand grenade revenge attack

Essentially this was a revenge attack after a police operation in Gottsunda. Yep, you guessed it. A heavily populated migrant area which is now a no-go zone. You know, just another right wing conspiracy theory...

You really are a looney.

 

[Kingokings204]

No it isn’t. In a democracy there is always an opposition. In this referendum the remoaners are the opposition. The ones who call the opposition fucking pricks and say „get over it“ when criticised are the wannabe dictators.

Note: I also say „get over it“, but that is sarcasm to make my point about your hypocrisy.

Oh ok then is that the rules ok then i think you should be ashamed of your vote. Actually no it doesn’t I don’t want to stoop to your level. I respect the way you voted but disagree, you disagree and are ashamed of how I voted.

You don’t look any better than trump or Putin.

 

[Kingokings204]

Oh great. The referendum only asked UK citizens what they wanted. It didn’t go into details as to how these things would work and no one consulted the people sharing our land border with the EU.

Show me a voting slip where it clearly states what would happen with Ireland, or a joint paper from ROI and UK explaining what you claim was made clear.

You’re delusional. Where on the ballot paper did it show me remain asking for more countries to join and to give up more legislations and laws? An eu army? To join the euro? An eu superstate?

 

[skybluetony176]

Border controls for Britain. Clear enough even for you now?

Not Britain and Ireland. It was made clear in the referendum no one wanted Ireland and the peace process to change.

Just so you know the island of Ireland is split into two. The North or Ulster if you prefer is part of the U.K. and therefore British. The rest isn’t. It’s a stand alone country called Ireland or Eire if you prefer. It’s also an EU member state and will remain so after Brexit. If you want border controls for Britain the Northern Irish border with Ireland will need to have border controls with Ireland. Otherwise we won’t have border controls for Britain and immigrants will be able to cross the border into the U.K. across the only land border that the U.K. has with the EU.

 

[Astute]

Is it? Why? Because yo say so? Grendull says you’re right also but then provides evidence that actually when analysed says the opposite. As always the devil is in the detail.

So how about doing something you have failed to do so far?

Prove I am wrong instead of making comments that you think are smart.

 

[Kingokings204]

Just so you know the island of Ireland is split into two. The North or Ulster if you prefer is part of the U.K. and therefore British. The rest isn’t. It’s a stand alone country called Ireland or Eire if you prefer. It’s also an EU member state and will remain so after Brexit. If you want border controls for Britain the Northern Irish border with Ireland will need to have border controls with Ireland. Otherwise we won’t have border controls for Britain and immigrants will be able to cross the border into the U.K. across the only land border that the U.K. has with the EU.

Just so you know we have had a common travel area dating back to early 1920’s when North and Southern Ireland split. Over 50 years before we joined the EU. Hope this helps.

 

[skybluetony176]

You’re delusional. Where on the ballot paper did it show me remain asking for more countries to join and to give up more legislations and laws? An eu army? To join the euro? An eu superstate?

You do realise that as EU members we have the power of veto? It’s the same power Ireland is threatening to use to stop trade talks with the U.K. unless the border issue is sorted first. And no one could force us to join the euro anyway and I would think had there ever been a referendum on joining the euro the country would have voted no by a far far greater margin than voted out. There’s practically zero appetite to join the euro in the U.K. it’s just more brexit scaremongering nonsense.

 

[skybluetony176]

So how about doing something you have failed to do so far?

Prove I am wrong instead of making comments that you think are smart.

I refer you to the evidence supplied by Grendull yet again. Why don’t you prove me wrong.

 

[Kingokings204]

You do realise that as EU members we have the power of veto? It’s the same power Ireland is threatening to use to stop trade talks with the U.K. unless the border issue is sorted first. And no one could force us to join the euro anyway and I would think had there ever been a referendum on joining the euro the country would have voted no by a far far greater margin than voted out. There’s practically zero appetite to join the euro in the U.K. it’s just more brexit scaremongering nonsense.

Ah got ya, like a referendum every other country got when they joined the euro?

Sorry my mistake.

Oh and the aim of the EU is to have one currency one border one army. So yes we would have to have the euro at some point. It’s the whole purpose to the EU. I’m sure you know that.

 

[martcov]

Are you serious? You believe that this migration is not an issue, and that it is just another right wing conspiracy theory? This is another reason, on top of Merkel's insane policy, why people voted leave. People like you, people in power, and much of the media are completely ignoring the crime wave that has come with this 'invasion' and try to water it down at every opportunity. It's insanely frustrating and complete nonsense.

Merkel received little support? FFS. The EU have been threatening sanctions against Poland and Hungary for not taking the migrants.

Like you blame the bus, the poster was little to do with it. People are waking up to what is happening, and a poster is not something that has done that. Europe is changing due to the introduction of third world migrants on mass. You might live in Germany, but I go there regularly and the bile you are serving up is not something that checks out. Likewise in Sweden. The most shocking thing is the outright denial.

Look at the woman who got raped in Sweden by 20 migrants a week or so ago. That only just reached the main stream media, who have been ignoring everything else going on there. Here's another one, a grenade attack on a police station in Uppsala - I've found an English article for you to read and deny: Police suspect they were targeted in Uppsala hand grenade revenge attack

Essentially this was a revenge attack after a police operation in Gottsunda. Yep, you guessed it. A heavily populated migrant area which is now a no-go zone. You know, just another right wing conspiracy theory...

You really are a looney.

What crime wave? The number of violent crimes committed by extreme groups has rocketed, especially right wing groups. Burglary from Croatian, Hungarian and Ukrainian gangs.

 

[Astute]

You do realise that as EU members we have the power of veto? It’s the same power Ireland is threatening to use to stop trade talks with the U.K. unless the border issue is sorted first. And no one could force us to join the euro anyway and I would think had there ever been a referendum on joining the euro the country would have voted no by a far far greater margin than voted out. There’s practically zero appetite to join the euro in the U.K. it’s just more brexit scaremongering nonsense.

All new entrans to the EU now have to take up the Euro.

Can you guarantee that we wouldn't have to take it up in the future?

 

[Astute]

I refer you to the evidence supplied by Grendull yet again. Why don’t you prove me wrong.

How about replying to what you said about me for once?

You can't because you know that I am right.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Wow. It's gotten pretty intimate in here the last 24 hours or so.

The problem for me is that voting to leave was always considered the 'wrong' answer. It was made out to be a thick persons vote, or a racists vote. There was barely any dialogue or genuine debates on what is good about the EU and what is bad. Let's face it, there are good things about it, and there are bad things about it.

I, as you know, was originally very much on the fence. I could see these good and bad things, but as time went on, I found that being in the middle actually made me an enemy of remain. The right answer was to remain and nothing else. I got so much shit from people, and so many derogatory comments from friends, the media, people I met etc. Now, as the days go by, I am more sure on leaving every day. Not because I think our lives in 20 years will definitely be better than they are now, but because I think there is a realistic chance, and I think we should give it a go. By trying to force an opinion on me, and by trying to scare me into submission, it has had the complete opposite effect.

Look at some of the shit coming out here, 'you should be ashamed of your vote', and 'you should be held accountable if it goes wrong'. Yeah sure, I will admit in 20 years time, if we have given it a really good go and it hasn't worked, that I am wrong. I am also not stubborn enough or a big enough wanker to say in 20 years time if they had a 'shall we rejoin the EU' vote, that I would 100% say 'no'.

Are we going to give it a really good go though? The government are the ones that represent us and ultimately have do the transition and exit for us. They have very little interest in doing this well it seems, and May must be one of the weakest leaders on the planet right now (for the record I think Corbyn is just as bad and any alternative should not be him either). It is not the fault of people who voted to leave that we shouldn't have picked that answer because the government are incapable, or that we are useless without the big helpful brother - The EU. We all should have voted on what we think was the right thing to do.

Top this with much of the media trying to derail it, and many people who don't want to leave still clinging on to the bit of hope that this will come to an end, and we are stuck in complete no mans land. Insults are flying, failure (and sorry but this is true) is wanted by some, so that we can reverse it, or in some cases that they can be proved right.

I am desperate for this to succeed, for our country to prosper first and foremost. Let's face it, if it does work out, leavers will not get any credit, so there is no point going down that route. We will still be hearing 'you didn't know what you were voting for', and 'you got lucky'. Frankly, all this bullshit needs to stop. I am sick and tired of both sides talking bollocks and failing to see it from the other side. That said, honestly speaking, from a man who was on the fence, more leavers are prepared to argue the good and bad of the EU, whilst I feel more (not all) remainers are more inclined to argue the EU is great on everything, all of the time.

The reality is, we are leaving the EU. It is happening. Let's try and make the most of it for everyone, and use the opportunities that will come out of this as a chance to thrive. Then, in 20 years, if we are in absolute dire straights, I will come back on here, and admit fully well that I was wrong.

 

[skybluetony176]

Just so you know we have had a common travel area dating back to early 1920’s when North and Southern Ireland split. Over 50 years before we joined the EU. Hope this helps.

Just so you know there’s been border checks both customs and security in my lifetime. The customs buildings are still there at most crossing. Customs checks stopped in 1993 and security checks stopped with the good Friday piece agreement. Having crossed the border dozens if not hundreds of times myself I can assure you that although crossing without a passport has always been allowed but it was far from simple and that is what we could go back to unless we agree a two tier brexit where the only British land border has free movement of people while the rest doesn’t.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

What crime wave? The number of violent crimes committed by extreme groups has rocketed, especially right wing groups. Burglary from Croatian, Hungarian and Ukrainian gangs.

 

[Kingokings204]

Just so you know there’s been border checks both customs and security in my lifetime. The customs buildings are still there at most crossing. Customs checks stopped in 1993 and security checks stopped with the good Friday piece agreement. Having crossed the border dozens if not hundreds of times myself I can assure you that although crossing without a passport has always been allowed but it was far from simple and that is what we could go back to unless we agree a two tier brexit where the only British land border has free movement of people while the rest doesn’t.

Just so you know it doesn’t have to be impossible. You are making it out like it’s impossible whilst admitting you’ve done it hundreds of times yourself. And you are the same person who wants people to be accountable for their vote. I will go and write my apology letter for you now. Or shall I get on the wooden block? Clown.

 

[Grendel]

Just so you know it doesn’t have to be impossible. You are making it out like it’s impossible whilst admitting you’ve done it hundreds of times yourself. And you are the same person who wants people to be accountable for their vote. I will go and write my apology letter for you now. Or shall I get on the wooden block? Clown.

Is this Tony. Tony has extensive knowledge of the EU. He’s the only person who knows that there’s a Welsh arm of the European Commission and a ukip voter.

 

[skybluetony176]

How about replying to what you said about me for once?

You can't because you know that I am right.

Again. See evidence provided by Grendull.

 

[skybluetony176]

Is this Tony. Tony has extensive knowledge of the EU. He’s the only person who knows that there’s a Welsh arm of the European Commission and a ukip voter.

Again. I really don’t and am not.

 

[skybluetony176]

All new entrans to the EU now have to take up the Euro.

Can you guarantee that we wouldn't have to take it up in the future?

Again. It’s called the power of veto.

 

[Grendel]

I've also seen multiple articles claiming different figures. None of them are in £ either. You're claim that I hate Britain is utterly ridiculous as well, considering you've condemned the oaf Farage in the past, I'm surprised you're resorting down to his level.

Can you link some of these “multiple articles?”

 

[skybluetony176]

Just so you know it doesn’t have to be impossible. You are making it out like it’s impossible whilst admitting you’ve done it hundreds of times yourself. And you are the same person who wants people to be accountable for their vote. I will go and write my apology letter for you now. Or shall I get on the wooden block? Clown.

I’m not saying it’s impossible in fact I’m saying it’s likely. What people voted for though was control, that word again, control of our borders. This won’t be control of our borders. They’ll be nothing stopping anyone from the EU traveling to Ireland as is their right under free movement of people and then waltzing into the U.K. unopposed and uncontrolled. Which apparently isn’t what people voted for. You either voted for free movement of people and no border control with other EU countries or you didn’t. I did and I take responsibility for that, you didn’t and you’re failing to understand what you actually did vote for with your constant contradiction over the EU border.

 

[Grendel]

In fact if you take the gross figure suggested in the article you link £84b and then deduct the rebate as the article suggests that puts the nett figure that the EU were looking for in the region of £40b - £50b by my calculations. I’m struggling to see here we’re the EU have compromised at all. You’re proclamation that the EU can’t call all the shots looks premature to naive when you work through the evidence that you yourself provided.

Oh hello tiny. This is an article that appeared in the Times. It actually says although it would be less than £84 billion net it’s considerably more than the £50 billion originally proposed by Junke. It says that in the article Tiny.

Furthermore the £40 billion includes funding the two year transition so the net figure comparison is less than £20 billion

Anyway this might be all confusing for you so the devils in the detail

The detail being in the article stating the net figure is considerably more than the £50 billion originally proposed.

Can’t you read Tiny?

 

[Astute]

Wow. It's gotten pretty intimate in here the last 24 hours or so.

The problem for me is that voting to leave was always considered the 'wrong' answer. It was made out to be a thick persons vote, or a racists vote. There was barely any dialogue or genuine debates on what is good about the EU and what is bad. Let's face it, there are good things about it, and there are bad things about it.

I, as you know, was originally very much on the fence. I could see these good and bad things, but as time went on, I found that being in the middle actually made me an enemy of remain. The right answer was to remain and nothing else. I got so much shit from people, and so many derogatory comments from friends, the media, people I met etc. Now, as the days go by, I am more sure on leaving every day. Not because I think our lives in 20 years will definitely be better than they are now, but because I think there is a realistic chance, and I think we should give it a go. By trying to force an opinion on me, and by trying to scare me into submission, it has had the complete opposite effect.

Look at some of the shit coming out here, 'you should be ashamed of your vote', and 'you should be held accountable if it goes wrong'. Yeah sure, I will admit in 20 years time, if we have given it a really good go and it hasn't worked, that I am wrong. I am also not stubborn enough or a big enough wanker to say in 20 years time if they had a 'shall we rejoin the EU' vote, that I would 100% say 'no'.

Are we going to give it a really good go though? The government are the ones that represent us and ultimately have do the transition and exit for us. They have very little interest in doing this well it seems, and May must be one of the weakest leaders on the planet right now (for the record I think Corbyn is just as bad and any alternative should not be him either). It is not the fault of people who voted to leave that we shouldn't have picked that answer because the government are incapable, or that we are useless without the big helpful brother - The EU. We all should have voted on what we think was the right thing to do.

Top this with much of the media trying to derail it, and many people who don't want to leave still clinging on to the bit of hope that this will come to an end, and we are stuck in complete no mans land. Insults are flying, failure (and sorry but this is true) is wanted by some, so that we can reverse it, or in some cases that they can be proved right.

I am desperate for this to succeed, for our country to prosper first and foremost. Let's face it, if it does work out, leavers will not get any credit, so there is no point going down that route. We will still be hearing 'you didn't know what you were voting for', and 'you got lucky'. Frankly, all this bullshit needs to stop. I am sick and tired of both sides talking bollocks and failing to see it from the other side. That said, honestly speaking, from a man who was on the fence, more leavers are prepared to argue the good and bad of the EU, whilst I feel more (not all) remainers are more inclined to argue the EU is great on everything, all of the time.

The reality is, we are leaving the EU. It is happening. Let's try and make the most of it for everyone, and use the opportunities that will come out of this as a chance to thrive. Then, in 20 years, if we are in absolute dire straights, I will come back on here, and admit fully well that I was wrong.

Exactly how I am starting to feel.

It seems that those who are desperate for us to stay in for whatever reason do not want a debate. They just want to tell the world how bad it is and how wrong over half of the population is. They don't have an answer for many things. They just want you to hear their version and nothing else. And they will come out with any old crap.

I can't see us doing badly for years. Having our own currency will help if it does go wrong. And we are not starting from a lower base.

I just want the whole thing done now.

 

[Sick Boy]

Can you link some of these “multiple articles?”

Will do later on am at work at the moment, had to avoid coming on here as they start going through our Internet history haha

 

[Astute]

Again. See evidence provided by Grendull.

So as usual you throw an accusation at me and can't back it up.

 

[Grendel]

I have the full breakdown of what he demands but will not be able to link as it’s an FT article.

Just to put Tony’s mind (lol) at rest and save him checking with the welsh branch of the EU the total projection that barnier demanded was e111 billion and the rebate around 35 billion (min 29 max 42) so the net figure is around 75 to 80 billion.