The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (280 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

I get all that but the moment that it was declared out means out, we’re having a hard brexit (something wholly applauded by the out camp) how was brexit ever going to be different to what’s happening? Other than being better organised.

Surely if out means out then this is out. The details wouldn’t be any different just the execution.

When you say that you were expecting something that “would protect my best interests” I assumed that meant that you weren’t expecting a hard brexit.

I took 'out means out' to mean that there would be no second referendum, not that it was hard brexit or hard brexit. The again, who knows, it could mean neither and just be another silly soundbite from that idiot Theresa May.

 

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[skybluetony176]

So what is your meaning of a hard Brexit?

We’re finding out aren’t we. It’s one of those phrases that got coined and thrown around and applauded largely by the brexit camp and now the ripples of doubt are starting to come from those very same Applaudees.

I got it from a few angles on here for suggesting that nobody really knew what they were voting for when they voted out. If you’re grumbling about the terms of brexit as they unfold because you were expecting something different then I’m going to say you’re agreeing with my initial judgment even if you didn’t when I delivered it. If you’re complaining about the execution from the government then fair enough, I get that. They are a shower of shit and whether you voted remain or leave, Tory or Labour it’s your equal right to come to that conclusion and I’d agree with you 100% whole heartedly.

But if you voted out, believed out meant out and backed the calls specifically for a hard brexit while shouting down anyone who said you didn’t understand what you were voting for by saying I know what I voted for then you don’t really have grounds to complain about the terms. It is after all what you self proclaimed to have voted for.

 

[skybluetony176]

I took 'out means out' to mean that there would be no second referendum, not that it was hard brexit or hard brexit. The again, who knows, it could mean neither and just be another silly soundbite from that idiot Theresa May.

Do you believe that what you voted for is what is being delivered? I’m not talking about the execution I’m talking about the terms.

 

[Kingokings204]

I voted to leave. I probably still would vote to leave given another opportunity.

The mistake I made was expecting this joke of a Conservative government to be able to manage the process of leaving in a way that would protect my best interests.

This is exactly me. I would vote leave again but not be fooled by having TM ( a remainer) as PM.

I genuinely thought leave would win and I was right and that we would have a true brexit PM and cabinet who would do it correctly which I was clearly wrong about.

As it turns out and yes I will say it again we will be a watered down brexit but be out only by name and that therefore everyone loses.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Do you believe that what you voted for is what is being delivered? I’m not talking about the execution I’m talking about the terms.

I didn't vote for the terms though, I voted for Britain to leave the EU. That is being delivered.

 

[Kingokings204]

I didn't vote for the terms though, I voted for Britain to leave the EU. That is being delivered.

True and you could argue we need a compromise to settle the country down from division. Some things I’m not happy about but yes we are leaving and that’s the main thing to me.

 

[martcov]

Speaking at a security conference in Berlin Michel Barnier accused the UK abandoning the defence of Europe at a time when it should be standing “shoulder to shoulder” with its neighbours in the EU.

The UK government said as recently as September that it wants to remain inside Europol and retain other EU security benefits such as the European Arrest Warrant and shared criminal databases.

Then he says......

But outlining the consequences of Brexit on defence and security, Mr Barnier said Britain would no longer be a member, adding that the UK would be leaving the European Defence Agency and that UK defence ministers and ambassadors would be excluded from international meetings with EU colleagues.

These changes were all a “logical consequence of the sovereign choice made by the British” in the referendum last year, he said.



He says we are abandoning it at a bad time, we say we want to stay in then he says we must leave.

Does anyone spot a contradiction there?

Leavers think that European Defence means an EU army and they want nothing to with it. So they will not be involved in future defence matters. Seems about right.

 

[martcov]

True and you could argue we need a compromise to settle the country down from division. Some things I’m not happy about but yes we are leaving and that’s the main thing to me.

Funny that. But, the main thing for me is that we can somehow be better off than before. That would be a good reason for leaving. Not just leaving for leaving‘s sake. That sounds pretty stupid to me.

 

[skybluetony176]

I didn't vote for the terms though, I voted for Britain to leave the EU. That is being delivered.

Just not one that represents your interests apparently. Why did you vote out again? I can’t ever imagine personally deliberately voting for something that doesn’t represent my interests but that’s what you seem to be admitting to.

 

[martcov]

I didn't vote for the terms though, I voted for Britain to leave the EU. That is being delivered.

Yes, enjoy.

 

[Ashdown]

Funny that. But, the main thing for me is that we can somehow be better off than before. That would be a good reason for leaving. Not just leaving for leaving‘s sake. That sounds pretty stupid to me.

You don't live here as I've said before. You don't see the mess that the NHS is in, the waits for school places, rising crime, traffic congestion, the negative impact on wages etc. You just put your hands over your ears and pretend that somehow its all lies and propaganda. On that basis if incoming numbers are shrunk hugely and services start coping better then yes things could be better.

 

[Sick Boy]

I voted to leave......I still believe in the principles that lead me to that decision, but I'd probably abstain given another opportunity.

The mistake I made was expecting a general election to be called as soon as Cameron & Osborne jumped ship followed by real cross-party cooperation on formulating a transitional plan......

I agree that it should definitely have been a cross parry issue, but why would Labour now want to touch it?

 

[Sick Boy]

You don't live here as I've said before. You don't see the mess that the NHS is in, the waits for school places, rising crime, traffic congestion, the negative impact on wages etc. You just put your hands over your ears and pretend that somehow its all lies and propaganda. On that basis if incoming numbers are shrunk hugely and services start coping better then yes things could be better.

If less people come here, less will go into these services.

 

[Ashdown]

If less people come here, less will go into these services.

You know that old financial argument doesn't stack up. Yes we lose a few tax dollars but the overall impact on services and infrastructure outweigh those gains. We may lose a few decent people too and that is a shame but we'll survive with more investment in training our own. We managed before mass migration and we shall manage again.

 

[Ian1779]

Do you think that if someone said we'd pay €50 billion in a divorce settlement to leave before the referendum that the outcome would have been different?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Just not one that represents your interests apparently. Why did you vote out again? I can’t ever imagine personally deliberately voting for something that doesn’t represent my interests but that’s what you seem to be admitting to.

I am telling you what I voted for. I voted out, at that point there wasn't any talk of a hard brexit. I assumed that we would join the EFTA or similar.

I voted out as I do not believe in the ever closer union envisaged by the European powers that be. I don't believe that our laws should originate from EU commissioners. I want to be absolutely able to hold the British government to account for the legislation they pass.

I know it is often conveniently ignored, but it's EU procurement law that has brought rampant privatisation into public services including the NHS. It is EU law which allows, for example, SISU to take the council to Judicial Review twice under what I know you believe to be spurious grounds. It's the EU Common Agricultural Policy that pays large grants to rich landowners regardless of whether they produce anything on that land.

 

[skybluetony176]

You know that old financial argument doesn't stack up. Yes we lose a few tax dollars but the overall impact on services and infrastructure outweigh those gains. We may lose a few decent people too and that is a shame but we'll survive with more investment in training our own. We managed before mass migration and we shall manage again.

You have to factor in how many EU nationals work in the NHS. You also have to factor in why. Why is because of a lack of investment in the NHS meaning we don’t train enough nurses, doctors and midwives so the quotas are filled by immigrant nurses, doctors and midwives. The failing of the NHS is investment by successive governments. Immigration is a scapegoat that governments have been happy to allowed to be played as it takes the attention of them.

 

[martcov]

You know that old financial argument doesn't stack up. Yes we lose a few tax dollars but the overall impact on services and infrastructure outweigh those gains. We may lose a few decent people too and that is a shame but we'll survive with more investment in training our own. We managed before mass migration and we shall manage again.

Not necessarily. We are an ageing population. One reason the health service is under pressure is because of old people. This will get considerably worse in the next few years as the percentage of older people grows. Less paying in and more needing medical attention. Having less young migrants may well cause more problems than it solves.

 

[dutchman]

You have to factor in how many EU nationals work in the NHS.

I've not witnessed that many myself, they're mostly from Commonwealth countries.

 

[martcov]

You don't live here as I've said before. You don't see the mess that the NHS is in, the waits for school places, rising crime, traffic congestion, the negative impact on wages etc. You just put your hands over your ears and pretend that somehow its all lies and propaganda. On that basis if incoming numbers are shrunk hugely and services start coping better then yes things could be better.

In addition I believe that it is due to austerity measures. That is not pretence.

 

[martcov]

I am telling you what I voted for. I voted out, at that point there wasn't any talk of a hard brexit. I assumed that we would join the EFTA or similar.

I voted out as I do not believe in the ever closer union envisaged by the European powers that be. I don't believe that our laws should originate from EU commissioners. I want to be absolutely able to hold the British government to account for the legislation they pass.

I know it is often conveniently ignored, but it's EU procurement law that has brought rampant privatisation into public services including the NHS. It is EU law which allows, for example, SISU to take the council to Judicial Review twice under what I know you believe to be spurious grounds. It's the EU Common Agricultural Policy that pays large grants to rich landowners regardless of whether they produce anything on that land.

The fact that SISU‘s case is spurious and probably won’t work, shows that the law is working. Let SISU pay the bill and the law has shown itself to be fair.

 

[skybluetony176]

I am telling you what I voted for. I voted out, at that point there wasn't any talk of a hard brexit. I assumed that we would join the EFTA or similar.

I voted out as I do not believe in the ever closer union envisaged by the European powers that be. I don't believe that our laws should originate from EU commissioners. I want to be absolutely able to hold the British government to account for the legislation they pass.

I know it is often conveniently ignored, but it's EU procurement law that has brought rampant privatisation into public services including the NHS. It is EU law which allows, for example, SISU to take the council to Judicial Review twice under what I know you believe to be spurious grounds. It's the EU Common Agricultural Policy that pays large grants to rich landowners regardless of whether they produce anything on that land.

So basically you didn’t know what you voted for. You were voting blind.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I know it is often conveniently ignored, but it's EU procurement law that has brought rampant privatisation into public services including the NHS.

I agree this is a serious issue.

Pretty sure it won't get any better outside of the EU, however!

 

[skybluetony176]

I've not witnessed that many myself, they're mostly from Commonwealth countries.

Undoubtedly most are from the commonwealth I wouldn’t disagree with that, but it still amounts to the same problem. Lack of investment, especially in training meaning that a shortfall has to be made up from somewhere else. Immigrants.

 

[fernandopartridge]

So basically you didn’t know what you voted for.

The question wasn't "Do you wish for Britain to leave the EU on the following terms?". So essentially, I did know what I was voting for. The terms are the next stage which is left to our elected representatives in parliament to decide.

 

[skybluetony176]

The question wasn't "Do you wish for Britain to leave the EU on the following terms?". So essentially, I did know what I was voting for. The terms are the next stage which is left to our elected representatives in parliament to decide.

You gambled on what it would mean then and your gamble hasn’t paid off. Sounds a bit of a silly thing to do if you ask me.

 

[martcov]

The question wasn't "Do you wish for Britain to leave the EU on the following terms?". So essentially, I did know what I was voting for. The terms are the next stage which is left to our elected representatives in parliament to decide.

Are you for a second referendum on the terms? How come you trust parliament to do a deal on the terms, but it has to be a referendum on whether we leave or not? Shouldn’t we have left membership to parliament in the first place?

 

[fernandopartridge]

You gambled on what it would mean then and your gamble hasn’t paid off. Sounds a bit of a silly thing to do if you ask me.

Well, not really. Whether the 'gamble' has paid off remains to be seen.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Are you for a second referendum on the terms? How come you trust parliament to do a deal on the terms, but it has to be a referendum on whether we leave or not? Shouldn’t we have left membership to parliament in the first place?

How could you realistically have a referendum on a range of complex terms? What's the point of parliament if you have a referendum on everything? I thought that the consensus from some of the remain side was that the public were too stupid to make the right decision on the referendum; if that's the case, how can the pubic realistically make a decision on the terms?

 

[skybluetony176]

Well, not really. Whether the 'gamble' has paid off remains to be seen.

You’ve already said it doesn’t represent you. Clearly you already think it hasn’t paid off.

 

[fernandopartridge]

You’ve already said it doesn’t represent you. Clearly you already think it hasn’t paid off.

Whatever Tony. I am talking about the way they're going about it, it still remains to be seen whether or not what they're doing is right but the signs are not good.

The mistake I made was expecting this joke of a Conservative government to be able to manage the process of leaving in a way that would protect my best interests.

 

[Ashdown]

I voted leave not for benefits to this country in 2019 or 2029 for that matter but to begin a process that will one day be able to protect us from the spiralling and burgeoning world population that will overwhelm this little island if measures are not introduced soon. There has to be an end to the cycle of wanton destruction of the landscape for housing and infrastructure sooner or later. Mankind in general has to start to rein itself in before we've passed the point of no return with the environment we live in. Controls on immigration is just the beginning for me, we need incentives for people to procreate responsibly and look after their elder relatives themselves more in the future.

 

[Kingokings204]

You gambled on what it would mean then and your gamble hasn’t paid off. Sounds a bit of a silly thing to do if you ask me.

Here we go all one side again. What about the gamble to remain? People told me I would vote remain for the status quo. Fantasy stuff.

Mr juncker told us only the other month he wants much more closer union with more powers and a defence policy. I know a lot of people who voted remain who would of hated the idea of ever closer union but thought remain was better at the time.

Still i still need to write my apology letter for my vote being “wrong.” Shall I send it to the welsh part of the EU commission where you’re based?

 

[Grendel]

It’s absurd to decide if it’s bad or not. If you witness the escalation of federal control since we joined then it can’t be judged for decades.

If we are by then out of a common tax society with no freedom on fiscal policy and are having to give more and more funds to prop up ever increase poverty stricken states joining it then very obviously we will be better off.

That’s what I believe will happen and that’s why I voted leave.

 

[Sick Boy]

I've not witnessed that many myself, they're mostly from Commonwealth countries.

It's 5% with 10% of doctors from the EU, still a significant amount.