The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (362 Viewers)

[Kingokings204]

We haven’t got a free trade deal. We won’t get as a good a deal as we have st the moment. That is a fact. Plus the UK won’t allow free movement of EU citizens. What if, say, Poles and Estonians walk across the border? How will you control that? And the millions of Muslim refugees forced on to ROI by Merkel?

Finally some humour and a decent point.

That can happen now and I’m assuming for non EU citizens.

Look no one has said on here they want a hard border. There isn’t an appetite for one. It has been in operation since 1921-22. (Before EU) it can be sorted and it will be imo.

 

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[skybluetony176]

Yes that’s correct but you have a free trade deal and nothing changes? What’s the mess? Nothing would change from what it is now. You’re making it sound impossible again. Why?

The mess is that to transport goods from one part of the U.K. to another part of the U.K. said goods will have to go through a customs check. Will that have to happen wether the goods are being forwarded to the south or not? Will it have to be done regardless because the simple fact is that with no border between north and south goods will inevitably cross the border.

It’s the other way also. Goods leaving Northern Ireland will have to go through the customs process to come to the mainland.

Which leaves you with the scenario that the mainland U.K. is out and Northern Ireland is neither in or out.

 

[Kingokings204]

Are you seriously claiming that nobody voted leave as they wanted control of our borders?

How on earth can you say we're going to leave the EU but then have a completely open border between the EU and UK?

No idea why you said you’re first sentence. It’s silly point scoring that is just that it’s silly. You’re better than that. It’s not what I said.

We as leavers do want border controls. I repeat I don’t know one leaver who wants a border with Ireland. I assume you want a border the way you seem to demand it?

 

[skybluetony176]

Thats what I can't get my head round.

You get people saying there was never any intention of having a hard border. In which case what was all that about taking back control. There will be an open border from the EU to the UK.

Equally you get people saying there should be a hard border with all the consequences to the peace agreement that entails.

You've even got people saying NI should stay in the customs union. That's ridiculous, NI voted remain yet they should stay half in while the rest of the UK is totally out. Scotland voted remain as well, do they get the same option?

These are the sort of things that should have been made clear prior to the vote. Sure the EU were never going to agree a leave settlement or anything like that prior to the vote but there should have been more indication of what leave entailed. The phrase 'I hadn't realised that' is all too common when discussing what needs to happen now.

Yeah exactly. What’s to stop Scotland demanding the same deal as Northern Ireland? Then we’d have two custom borders within the “United” Kingdom.

 

[skybluetony176]

What to a free trade deal?

They have stated today that Northern Ireland must have the same brexit deal as the rest of the U.K. otherwise they’ll pull their support of the minority Tory government. Which could possibly force another general election, or possibly completely change the face of brexit. Maybe even to the point where the only brexit deal that could ever possibly get through Parliament is leave the EU but join the EEA. Which no one apparently voted for as that includes free movement of people and a substantial contribution to the EU with no say. As per Norway.

 

[skybluetony176]

Northern Ireland is a unique situation. I’ve not met person correct me if I’m wrong by all means who want a hard border? Or a border different to what it is now?

Who would want that and why?

The solution that’s now being suggested is still a hard border. Only it’s moved from between north and south to between the UK and the UK. The DUP would rather see a hard border between the north and south than they would between Northern Ireland and the mainland. The problem hasn’t gone away, it’s just been shifted in that scenario.

 

[Kingokings204]

They have stated today that Northern Ireland must have the same brexit deal as the rest of the U.K. otherwise they’ll pull their support of the minority Tory government. Which could possibly force another general election, or possibly completely change the face of brexit. Maybe even to the point where the only brexit deal that could ever possibly get through Parliament is leave the EU but join the EEA. Which no one apparently voted for as that includes free movement of people and a substantial contribution to the EU with no say. As per Norway.

Fine good point, we are getting somewhere and can debate this. I wish you were always like this.

Right yes I did see that in the news today and I understand the DUP entirely. This was my original point Tony that they are royalist and want to be the same as Britain they don’t want a two tier brexit.

Now I am no Tory fan and i don’t like May. I find her weak and it’s a matter of time before she goes. Another general election is possible in my opinion although not likely.

We will have to see but I see Britain doing a good deal and Northern Ireland keeping the same rules as Britain. The border will become clearer nearer the time. Although I accept it’s not clear cut.

 

[Kingokings204]

The solution that’s now being suggested is still a hard border. Only it’s moved from between north and south to between the UK and the UK. The DUP would rather see a hard border between the north and south than they would between Northern Ireland and the mainland. The problem hasn’t gone away, it’s just been shifted in that scenario.

Yeah again I agree and did see this today. Posing thought for sure.

Surely it’s got to be better to find a solution close to what we have now. I know about borders and voting but leave all the rhetoric to one side and actually what is sensible and that’s for things to stay as close to now as possible. Find a way. The way seems to be a free trade deal.

 

[skybluetony176]

Plus, on the question of the EU some protestants must have voted remain as it was a clear majority.

I literally couldn’t name one person in my family who voted leave. Admittedly I have a big family (46 first cousins, I kid you not) and I don’t pretend to be close enough to all of them to know how they all voted but yes Protestants voted remain on mass. Especially in border areas where economies and livelihoods rely on the border arrangement as it is. I would guess conservatively that of my family that is still of working age a third of them work in the south. Simply because that is where the work is.

 

[skybluetony176]

Fine good point, we are getting somewhere and can debate this. I wish you were always like this.

Right yes I did see that in the news today and I understand the DUP entirely. This was my original point Tony that they are royalist and want to be the same as Britain they don’t want a two tier brexit.

Now I am no Tory fan and i don’t like May. I find her weak and it’s a matter of time before she goes. Another general election is possible in my opinion although not likely.

We will have to see but I see Britain doing a good deal and Northern Ireland keeping the same rules as Britain. The border will become clearer nearer the time. Although I accept it’s not clear cut.

Just to be pedantic the term is loyalists not royalists when it comes to politics. Although it’s probably fair to say that they are royalist too.

I don’t think that the DUP care one way or the other what the brexit deal is so long as it’s the same as the rest of the U.K. that might only leave two options on the table and neither is what people voted for.

 

[skybluetony176]

Finally some humour and a decent point.

That can happen now and I’m assuming for non EU citizens.

Look no one has said on here they want a hard border. There isn’t an appetite for one. It has been in operation since 1921-22. (Before EU) it can be sorted and it will be imo.

There was always checks at the border crossings. The shells of customs buildings are still there at most crossings just abandoned. For now. During the troubles there was security checks also on the border roads also and sometimes a second one the other side of a town in the north if it was a border town, this was certainly true of my families home town, we couldn’t even travel to the next town in the north without going through a permanent security check. Crossing the border was never as easy as some would have you believe it was. I know this first hand.

 

[Astute]

Thats what I can't get my head round.

You get people saying there was never any intention of having a hard border. In which case what was all that about taking back control. There will be an open border from the EU to the UK.

Equally you get people saying there should be a hard border with all the consequences to the peace agreement that entails.

You've even got people saying NI should stay in the customs union. That's ridiculous, NI voted remain yet they should stay half in while the rest of the UK is totally out. Scotland voted remain as well, do they get the same option?

These are the sort of things that should have been made clear prior to the vote. Sure the EU were never going to agree a leave settlement or anything like that prior to the vote but there should have been more indication of what leave entailed. The phrase 'I hadn't realised that' is all too common when discussing what needs to happen now.

So now do you understand why the remain lot were wrong to do project fear?

But it is hard to get remoaners to even admit about all the bullshit they came out with. If you believed them you would think the bullshit only came from one side.

 

[Astute]

So after all the talk of controlling our borders we're going to have an open border from the UK to the EU that doesn't even require you to have a passport to cross? What happens if thousands of Eastern Europeans wander across the border and lodge asylum claims or just decide to live there undetected?

Do you go to Ireland?

You still need photographic proof on who you are. So most take their passport.

Is this as much as a hardship as sime are trying to make out?

 

[Sick Boy]

That’s not what I was getting at. In my last reply to Mart I was explaining again correct me if I am wrong. No one wants a hard border in Ireland.

I’m saying Northern Ireland are British and the Republic of Ireland aren’t. Everyone wants things to stay as they are. Without being funny I’ve not spoken to one leaver who makes it out to be a problem. On here all the remainers make it seem like it’s impossible. I don’t understand why because it isn’t impossible.

I know a few people from the north who prefer to describe themselves as Northern Irish, not British. They also want NI to remain in the CU and SM. It's not going to be possible for NI to leave both and avoid a hard border.

 

[Sick Boy]

Do you go to Ireland?

You still need photographic proof on who you are. So most take their passport.

Is this as much as a hardship as sime are trying to make out?

Do you? It doesn't sound like it

You don't need a passport to cross in Ireland, which I believe he is referring to.

 

[Kingokings204]

I know a few people from the north who prefer to describe themselves as Northern Irish, not British. They also want NI to remain in the CU and SM. It's not going to be possible for NI to leave both and avoid a hard border.

Yes I know that to be true also. It’s the same everywhere though. We probably know some Scottish folk who see themselves as Scottish and English folk who are purely English. End of the day we all British (for now)

It’s funny actually I did some research on the 2016 referendum vote in NI and many areas Belfast and around there voted leave as a majority and all the areas on the Irish border chose to remain as a majority.

 

[clint van damme]

Yes that’s correct but you have a free trade deal and nothing changes? What’s the mess? Nothing would change from what it is now. You’re making it sound impossible again. Why?

The Good Friday agreement states no hard border between the North and the Republic. To maintain that there would have to be a soft border between the two which would possibly mean a hard border between the province and the mainland.
I'm not sure how that constitutes no change. The alternative would be a hard border between the North and the South which has all sorts of political ramifications.

 

[Sick Boy]

Fine good point, we are getting somewhere and can debate this. I wish you were always like this.

Right yes I did see that in the news today and I understand the DUP entirely. This was my original point Tony that they are royalist and want to be the same as Britain they don’t want a two tier brexit.

Now I am no Tory fan and i don’t like May. I find her weak and it’s a matter of time before she goes. Another general election is possible in my opinion although not likely.

We will have to see but I see Britain doing a good deal and Northern Ireland keeping the same rules as Britain. The border will become clearer nearer the time. Although I accept it’s not clear cut.

Then presumably a hard border is acceptable to you? The peace process would likely fall apart, which would most certainly not be worth it.

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes I know that to be true also. It’s the same everywhere though. We probably know some Scottish folk who see themselves as Scottish and English folk who are purely English. End of the day we all British (for now)

It’s funny actually I did some research on the 2016 referendum vote in NI and many areas Belfast and around there voted leave as a majority and all the areas on the Irish border chose to remain as a majority.

Apart from those in NI who opt for Irish over British passports, a lot of the younger generations are going for both.

Not sure it's like everywhere and is much more complicated. Some see themselves as Northern Irish, some as British and some Irish. To claim they are all British is not true, and ignores the complexity of it all.

 

[Sick Boy]

So now do you understand why the remain lot were wrong to do project fear?

But it is hard to get remoaners to even admit about all the bullshit they came out with. If you believed them you would think the bullshit only came from one side.

That has nothing to do with what Dave posted whatsoever. Why not join in the debate and demonatrate your neutrality rather than coming out with soundbites from the Mail?

 

[Kingokings204]

Then presumably a hard border is acceptable to you? The peace process would likely fall apart, which would most certainly not be worth it.

Not that’s not correct. I don’t want a hard border and as yet as not seen anyone either on here or in the media as yet.

 

[Sick Boy]

Not that’s not correct. I don’t want a hard border and as yet as not seen anyone either on here or in the media as yet.

Peter Robinson once proposed an electric fence. It's going to be inevitable if NI leaves under the same conditions as the rest of the UK though. People go on about taking back control and toughening up the borders and then act surprised when it happens.

Not many gave the Irish issue a second thought and didn't really seem to consider the consequences. The whole thing is very worrying.

 

[Kingokings204]

Apart from those in NI who opt for Irish over British passports, a lot of the younger generations are going for both.

Not sure it's like everywhere and is much more complicated. Some see themselves as Northern Irish, some as British and some Irish. To claim they are all British is not true, and ignores the complexity of it all.

I’m stating Northern Ireland is British. No more or less. You’re going to in depth to a very complicated situation. I try and keep it simple and Northern Ireland are a British country and Ireland is a republic. There is the border problem to solve as a result.

I don’t want to go into every Irish citizen and ask them as I don’t have the time these days.:wideyed:

 

[Sick Boy]

I’m stating Northern Ireland is British. No more or less. You’re going to in depth to a very complicated situation. I try and keep it simple and Northern Ireland are a British country and Ireland is a republic. There is the border problem to solve as a result.

I don’t want to go into every Irish citizen and ask them as I don’t have the time these days.:wideyed:

Glad you admit it's complicated! It was a very serious issue that seemed to get forgotten about. I'm not sure how May will get out of this one.

Whatever floats your boat with your last comment.

 

[Kingokings204]

Peter Robinson once proposed an electric fence. It's going to be inevitable if NI leaves under the same conditions as the rest of the UK though. People go on about taking back control and toughening up the borders and then act surprised when it happens.

Not many gave the Irish issue a second thought and didn't really seem to consider the consequences. The whole thing is very worrying.

It can be worrying but my opinion is it will solve itself and it remains to be seen for now. You agree with me then that no hard border should be in place?

Some didn’t give it a thought you are right but voters in a heavy leave area like Boston weren’t going to think entirely about Irish borders tbf.

 

[Sick Boy]

It can be worrying but my opinion is it will solve itself and it remains to be seen for now. You agree with me then that no hard border should be in place?

Some didn’t give it a thought you are right but voters in a heavy leave area like Boston weren’t going to think entirely about Irish borders tbf.

I absolutely don't want a hard border and any return to violence over this would be a disaster. This is very much a mess for the government to resolve and find a solution.

I strongly disagree that it'll solve itself though.

Of course they weren't going to, most people in England couldn't care less about it.

 

[Kingokings204]

I absolutely don't want a hard border and any return to violence over this would be a disaster. This is very much a mess for the government to resolve and find a solution.

I strongly disagree that it'll solve itself though.

Of course they weren't going to, most people in England couldn't care less about it.

Fair enough,

 

[Sick Boy]

What to a free trade deal?

No to having an internal customs border in the UK.

 

[martcov]

Fine good point, we are getting somewhere and can debate this. I wish you were always like this.

Right yes I did see that in the news today and I understand the DUP entirely. This was my original point Tony that they are royalist and want to be the same as Britain they don’t want a two tier brexit.

Now I am no Tory fan and i don’t like May. I find her weak and it’s a matter of time before she goes. Another general election is possible in my opinion although not likely.

We will have to see but I see Britain doing a good deal and Northern Ireland keeping the same rules as Britain. The border will become clearer nearer the time. Although I accept it’s not clear cut.

The border will be clearer, but not clear cut? Explain.

 

[Ashdown]

I saw through Farage years ago.

Didn’t KoK vote for Farage‘s party?

My mad brother actually stood as candidate for UKIP. He left on bad terms after discovering how they were milking the EU - fiddling - when he worked as a researcher for a UKIP MEP in Brussels. He never got paid and the MEP was eventually caught.

My mad brother‘s last project was campaigning for labour leave.

We don’t speak to each other.

Needless to say it is strange that you suggest I might admire anyone who supports Farage.

PS I have forgiven Tony for his Protest vote. ;-)

I think that madness must be endemic in the family mate !! I'm guessing his fervent dodgy politics sent you over the edge the other way ?!

 

[skybluetony176]

Do you go to Ireland?

You still need photographic proof on who you are. So most take their passport.

Is this as much as a hardship as sime are trying to make out?

You don’t need photographic proof of who you are to cross from north to south. The only reason you need photographic evidence of who you are to cross the water into Ireland is as a result of the September 11th attacks and zero to do with anything discussed. If you flew to Newcastle from Birmingham you need the same photographic evidence of who you are.

 

[martcov]

I’m stating Northern Ireland is British. No more or less. You’re going to in depth to a very complicated situation. I try and keep it simple and Northern Ireland are a British country and Ireland is a republic. There is the border problem to solve as a result.

I don’t want to go into every Irish citizen and ask them as I don’t have the time these days.:wideyed:

No, but you claim that a referendum in the UK is democracy. Are you for an all Ireland referendum to clear the point?

 

[skybluetony176]

I know a few people from the north who prefer to describe themselves as Northern Irish, not British. They also want NI to remain in the CU and SM. It's not going to be possible for NI to leave both and avoid a hard border.

The saying is our wee country. Which they’re all very proud of, especially when it comes to the achievements of the football team.

 

[martcov]

I think that madness must be endemic in the family mate !! I'm guessing his fervent dodgy politics sent you over the edge the other way ?!

No. His fervent dodgy politics is similar to some on here. I am more neutral. What’s your excuse?

 

[skybluetony176]

There is the border problem to solve as a result.

Which is why I said it’s a mess.