Nick
Administrator
It depends if clowns like you with no interest in CCFC still keep trying to blow smoke up their arses at every opportunity or try to make out they aren't giving tickets away.
Positive News for the Academy - Wasps pull out of Higgs (12 Viewers)
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
It depends if clowns like you with no interest in CCFC still keep trying to blow smoke up their arses at every opportunity or try to make out they aren't giving tickets away.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Your paranoia is showing again.
Nick
Administrator
It's a shame your reply to my PM explaining why you needed 2 accounts to push your nonsense licking the arse of everybody but CCFC at the same time isn't showing either.
It isn't paranoia either, it's fact.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Average attendance 6 mths to 31/12/2015 - 15331
Average attendance 6 mths to 31/12/2016 - 16102
Average league attendance 6 mths to 31/12/2017- 16207 (with one game still to play)
F&B spend per head at rugby matches 2016 £6.32 2015 £5.84
How many free tickets are actually taken up ? Clearly the published accounts show significant Sporting income. It costs Wasps next to nothing to offer empty seats for free in a stadium that is statistically half empty on average but it could gain them income contribution from other sources, even attract future paying customers. I would guess actual take up of free tickets (ie those actually used) is significantly less than 1000 for league games. There might be more for cup games but most clubs budget cup games as extra income above the budget. It is irrelevant to focus on the numbers on offer, it is the take up of free tickets that is significant, clearly the sporting income of Wasps compares favourably with other leading rugby teams and yet Wasps are still not the best supported. Wasps are still trying to endear themselves to the local community free tickets is a tried and tested marketing ploy and they would know the take up and plan accordingly as to whether it is worth it. A group game against a French team that will bring few fans in a match that could be irrelevant in terms of qualification is not a match to judge the financial performance of the group but to create atmosphere and maximise income then free tickets would seem a sensible ploy in a ground half full or less
in year to 30/06/2016 Wasps had Sporting turnover of 12m out of total of 31m and loans outstanding 43m the same year Saracens the European champions 2017 had a sporting turnover of £11.2m out of a turnover of 15m and loans outstanding of 43m. In 2016 Turnovers total Exeter 17m Leicester £19m Northampton £9M Bath £17m Gloucester £15m
F&B is clearly significant at 6.32 per head if that is maintained. Rugby fans are a different breed to football fans. Significant numbers turn up several hours before the match and stay after the match to drink & eat. If the 6.32 per head has been maintained then so far this season just on league games Wasps have a F&B turnover of £512k so far after 5 matches in the league
I do wish people would look at the easily available facts rather than dress up hearsay and hopeful opinion as certainty
Average attendance 6 mths to 31/12/2016 - 16102
Average league attendance 6 mths to 31/12/2017- 16207 (with one game still to play)
F&B spend per head at rugby matches 2016 £6.32 2015 £5.84
How many free tickets are actually taken up ? Clearly the published accounts show significant Sporting income. It costs Wasps next to nothing to offer empty seats for free in a stadium that is statistically half empty on average but it could gain them income contribution from other sources, even attract future paying customers. I would guess actual take up of free tickets (ie those actually used) is significantly less than 1000 for league games. There might be more for cup games but most clubs budget cup games as extra income above the budget. It is irrelevant to focus on the numbers on offer, it is the take up of free tickets that is significant, clearly the sporting income of Wasps compares favourably with other leading rugby teams and yet Wasps are still not the best supported. Wasps are still trying to endear themselves to the local community free tickets is a tried and tested marketing ploy and they would know the take up and plan accordingly as to whether it is worth it. A group game against a French team that will bring few fans in a match that could be irrelevant in terms of qualification is not a match to judge the financial performance of the group but to create atmosphere and maximise income then free tickets would seem a sensible ploy in a ground half full or less
in year to 30/06/2016 Wasps had Sporting turnover of 12m out of total of 31m and loans outstanding 43m the same year Saracens the European champions 2017 had a sporting turnover of £11.2m out of a turnover of 15m and loans outstanding of 43m. In 2016 Turnovers total Exeter 17m Leicester £19m Northampton £9M Bath £17m Gloucester £15m
F&B is clearly significant at 6.32 per head if that is maintained. Rugby fans are a different breed to football fans. Significant numbers turn up several hours before the match and stay after the match to drink & eat. If the 6.32 per head has been maintained then so far this season just on league games Wasps have a F&B turnover of £512k so far after 5 matches in the league
I do wish people would look at the easily available facts rather than dress up hearsay and hopeful opinion as certainty
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
I think you need to check your blood pressure.
Nick
Administrator
Fuck me how long did that take to whack up?
You can keep banging the drum reg Wasps till your hearts content but you know as well as everyone else Wasps gates (paying customer) are looking like there going down. Now I’m pretty sure like others here who have posted it’s been mentioned are a heck more than the 1,000 tickets your post indicated dishes out.
You don’t know nor do I but don’t belittle anyone just because they believe or make assumptions. My belief like many others close to Wasps is there is a problem around the corner.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Lol. You haven't read the conversation have you.
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stupot07
Well-Known Member
Where are you getting all the attendance figures from. Most of thr time they don't release the figure's especially when its a lower crowd?
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D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Wouldn't that be terrific!
Think it's as much to bear in mind their average attendance is impossible to know what's 'real' atm. They might be getting 15k, they might be getting 1500!
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
£80k from 13k tickets but without the ticket price to cover the increase staffing and security etc. £6 per head spend likely to be heavily skewed by corporate attendees in any case.
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D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Yup.
I'd point out that with the need to embed, they're absolutely right from their POV to give away masses of free tickets and hope to convert some to paying customers. They've got little option other than that really.
It'd be far more amusing if they didn't manage that conversion, and people just took the freebies...
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I did say IF they maintained the per head figure fp but it is very probable that 12800 extra tickets that cost little would generate income isn't it. There are some costs but the stewarding and police costs etc are not as big as for football and all stands are already open . Is it skewed by hospitality yes quite likely but not entirely and perhaps people with free tickets might feel free to spend on other things. The likelihood of 12800 free ticket holders actually turning up is pretty remote though isn't it ?
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
It's all on the internet stupot. Companies house, the London stock exchange, online newspapers, the aviva premiership stats wasps website even the CT.
Nick
Administrator
Not always the case, I know people who are mad on freebies and go because it's free (not just that) but groupon etc too. They would quite easily go and get a free meal or day out and not spend a penny there.
Don't doubt that some will go and buy a few beers though.
I think I know about 7 people who have been on freebies, none of them would actually pay to go. A couple of them would have bought 3 pints or so though.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Sorry if you feel belittled but come up with some provable facts for your assertions. So far the only thing put forward is that there are a lot of free tickets available something most accept but have no idea as to how many are taken up. In theory with average crowds of 16k then there is a possible 16k free tickets available every match on top of those given away already. But they don't affect the financials.
Not banging any drum for wasps. I do not want them here and never have. But it is about know your enemy. Because unless you do then it is harder to understand how it all affects Ccfc which is the club important to me for the last 50 years. Wasps are here and in my opinion though there might be peaks and troughs I don't see them leaving in any manner or soon Also understanding and investigating finances is what I do and I am good at it - that doesn't mean I always get it right but I give an informed opinion based on knowledge and experience
In terms of crowds head to head in fixtures crowds are down 17% currently. Year on year comparing financial periods they are fractionally up. It is the finances that will make or break.
- So how did they achieve a 12m sporting turnover in 2016 if it is all based on free tickets?
- how many free tickets are taken up? Unless you know that you have no idea about how the finances are affected so assertions of going bust because of it have no firm basis
- is the wasps operation unusual financially?
- why is something close that brings it all down and what is it?
- what is it that brings wasps down?
- "like many others close to Wasps" who and in what way close to Wasps?
So prove your points. I enjoy an informed discussion just ask NW or fp
Finally about 10 minutes...... but like I said finances are my expertise and I know where and what to look for...... and no thanks Mrs OSB is more than enough for me
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Hobo
Well-Known Member
A hell of a lot. They would have to in their first season. It would have been madness not too.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Just had a look at the fixtures for this season vs last season in terms of corresponding fixtures
Wasps home attendance's (corresponding fixture last season) [+/-% crowd]
Sale 12,108 (12329) [-2.3%]
Quins 12,806 (16,004)[-20%]
Bath 15,488 (26,292) [-41.1%]
Newcastle 16,073 (15, 033) [+7%]
Leicester 22,148 ( 27,930) [-20.7%]
Total 78,623 (97,588) [-18965 (-20%)]
Ave 15,724 (19,516)
Down 20% on last season.
Will be interesting to see the next set of accounts. I'll be surprised if they are as healthy as the last set.
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Wasps home attendance's (corresponding fixture last season) [+/-% crowd]
Sale 12,108 (12329) [-2.3%]
Quins 12,806 (16,004)[-20%]
Bath 15,488 (26,292) [-41.1%]
Newcastle 16,073 (15, 033) [+7%]
Leicester 22,148 ( 27,930) [-20.7%]
Total 78,623 (97,588) [-18965 (-20%)]
Ave 15,724 (19,516)
Down 20% on last season.
Will be interesting to see the next set of accounts. I'll be surprised if they are as healthy as the last set.
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Sorry for been slow I was just quoting the actual statement when the rental agreement was announced. Obviously a stupid thing to do. !!!!
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
That won’t go down well at all!!!
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
And I know people who have taken their while families as the kids were going free but they themselves were paying. Then they have ended up buying Wasps merchandise enjoyed the day and now go as a family as paying customers.
They don’t go every week but around once a month and they live in Sutton Coldfield.
I am sure there are lots of examples each way. Wasps marketing people will have weighed up the pros and cons.
Personally wouldn’t touch it as have no interest. However whenever I see people on here thinking its a sign that they are in the brown stuff. I look at it and think it is a sign that they know what they are doing and unfortunately will nick some of our potential custom.
Amcoventry
Well-Known Member
Don't think its been mentioned but where do these freebies come from? In New Zealand company's take up sponsorships with local grounds/rugby/football teams and included in the sponsorship are x amount of tickets per game/event to be given to who ever they want to. So in affect on gameday they are free tickets but in reality paid via annual sponsorship,.
Knew I was right! Great bit of work.
20% down on gates and stacks of free tickets included in those attendances.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Quite correct, wishful thinking is no substitute for understanding the issues.
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
I agree with those stats but as OSB has mentioned, those stats are pretty meaningless if they’re somehow managing to get more revenue from those attending.
If anything, anyone wanting Wasps to fail (hi) shouldn’t be bothered about attendances but about how much cash they bring in per game.
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
The official aviva premiership site gives the total league attendance for the 5 home games so far as 81305. Think you have included the wrong figure for the Quins game. They have played them twice and the figure you include is for the European cup game, I made the same mistake when originally did the calculation. No matter on a head to head basis attendance is down compared to last year same fixture, a point I made on this thread two weeks ago and repeated several times since. I am not arguing against that at any point. The reduction overall is between 17 & 18%.
We still don't know how many free tickets are taken up. I don't care how many might be available clearly with the ground only have half full potentially there is more than 16k. We have been told that from day one thousands of free tickets have been available almost every game. So my question would be where do they get their match day income from if it is all based on free tickets.?
To get anywhere close to the financial damage potentially being done you have to look at the previous financial information and extrapolate from there with no current information available. The average attendance for the current season is 16207 marginally up on the same period last year. The catch is they will need very significant crowds in the remaining 6 league games to match the average of over 21k for the whole of 2016/17 season.
The reason I compare the 6 months to 31/12/16 to 31/12/17 is that we have access to the 2016 period figures. That gives a starting point to try to gauge current performance. Turnover from match day income in 6 months to 31/12/16 was 8.2m on a similar average attendance including the many free tickets apparently made available then too. A rough estimate is that 2.5m of that figure is central distribution that leaves 5.7m from the ricoh match days. Given similar attendance in corresponding period in 2017 has income dropped? Are more free tickets available and taken up this season? Have people maintained their interest in having free tickets? Have central distributions increased this season ? If there are so many free tickets available each and every year where do they get their audited rugby income from?
Comparing the two periods in 2016 around 49% of the turnover was from match days. Of that 2.5m was guaranteed central distribution. If there has been a drop in paying attendance in the corresponding period 2017 then there are significant ways in other parts of the business to generate additional turnover or to save cost. Some of the turnover drop would bring with it a saving on direct costs too. A 20% drop in paying attendance could affect the turnover so far by 1m but these things are not one sided there are direct cost savings and we are all saying that they have been making cost savings elsewhere e.g. not replacing senior staff at ACL. Got to look at the whole picture and people focussing on the amount of free tickets available without having a clue about take up and saying Wasps are in terminal trouble seems on the data available a nonsense to me.
Have they got problems yes in the same way most teams have. But that is just a guess. I have seen nothing to suggest they are in terminal trouble. The availability of free tickets does not prove it unless it is backed up by more substantial evidence.
As for the 2017 accounts I am not at all sure they are going to show a big disaster. Central distributions were up, average crowds were 21k, it was a very successful season, the hotel was in full operation, there were concerts in the period, cost cutting had started etc
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D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I'd agree, and you'd assume it was always in their plan to hand out masses of free tickets.
Of course, they also use it in their marketing to show how popular the Wasps move has been, and I think it's worth pointing out it's only popular in the same way the Formula Renault series was at Silverstone, in terms of you're handing somebody a free ticket rather than them actively *wanting* to go.
So (as with just about everything Wasps!) I'd say it's just not possible to say if the plan is working out for them yet or not.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
I get all that OSB and I understand why you're comparing time periods but that's not comparing like for like.
For example last season vs bristol is in that 6 month window (12,250), whilst the biggest fixture of the season Leicester (22k) is in this 6 month window (it was was in April last season IIRC) - that makes a big difference, especially as they would have probably given a fair few free tickets or offers for the Bristol game, whereas Leicester probably wouldn't have had any offer and limited freebies. (Yes apologies, it was the wrong quins fixture, it was c15k down by about 700).
Not saying they are in trouble and I get exactly why they are giving away tickets and I'm not saying they are in trouble, but like us when we moved into the Ricoh, their is a steady drop off in attendance, whether that's paying customers or freebies, but I would say giving up to 13k free tickets suggests there are concerns creeping in. Don't forget their catchment is a lot bigger, they are actively trying to recruit from Birmingham, solihull, and the wider midlands area - and for a lot of the games they're getting less than we were getting on occasions in the 3rd tier of English football. We know that the lower thr crowds the worse the atmosphere and match day experience so that will impact on them too.
I don't think they will fail, but I do feel they will be uncomfortable and all may not be hunky dory.
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For example last season vs bristol is in that 6 month window (12,250), whilst the biggest fixture of the season Leicester (22k) is in this 6 month window (it was was in April last season IIRC) - that makes a big difference, especially as they would have probably given a fair few free tickets or offers for the Bristol game, whereas Leicester probably wouldn't have had any offer and limited freebies. (Yes apologies, it was the wrong quins fixture, it was c15k down by about 700).
Not saying they are in trouble and I get exactly why they are giving away tickets and I'm not saying they are in trouble, but like us when we moved into the Ricoh, their is a steady drop off in attendance, whether that's paying customers or freebies, but I would say giving up to 13k free tickets suggests there are concerns creeping in. Don't forget their catchment is a lot bigger, they are actively trying to recruit from Birmingham, solihull, and the wider midlands area - and for a lot of the games they're getting less than we were getting on occasions in the 3rd tier of English football. We know that the lower thr crowds the worse the atmosphere and match day experience so that will impact on them too.
I don't think they will fail, but I do feel they will be uncomfortable and all may not be hunky dory.
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stupot07
Well-Known Member
peeler
Well-Known Member
You cannot compare the gates of corresponding fixtures and draw any meaningful conclusions.
Lots of factors come in to play that may affect the overall attendances on a particular day, these same factors apply equally to football as they do rugby.
The weather.
What else is on that day.
The significance of the game.
This years price increases.
Early season games.
The day of the week it's played.
Examples:
The Bath game last year, that was on Christmas Eve and included a firework display after the game.
Winning the Leicester game last year meant the team would go top of the league.
The Newcastle game this year was on the same day as an England international game.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Likewise you can't compare last 6 months to the corresponding period last season and drawer any valid conclusions. We're literally talking 5-6 games and different teams, ticket promotions, etc. Christmas gates are always higher, so I imagine this seasons Xmas fixture against Gloucester will be significantly higher than last seasons 15,700.
But you can see gates are dropping off, jut like they did for us after the new stadium/team appeal/ novelty effect is wearing off.
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Stupot we are not far apart really are we. Yes you have to compare like for like head to head fixtures to get a handle on attendances. On that basis they have declined. I do not disagree with you but attendances are not the finances. Unlike Ccfc wasps are not wholly dependent on attendance for their income.
The argument put forward is that they are currently in financial trouble because the attendances so far this season are down. In total they are not but I don't believe that will be the case come end of season. Whilst a slide in attendance might bring comfort to some or indeed the free tickets, the real important thing is to get a handle on the current finances not the current attendances largely because of the other incomes the group have and the cost savings we believe have happened
Yes attendance feeds in to part of the finances. Overall attendances in the six months we can compare or calculate are almost the same. It would not be unreasonable on that basis to expect similar overall financial outcomes currently to those in the six months to 31/12/2016 when despite a £1m loss they were deemed not to be in trouble. So why are they in terminal trouble now?
The unknown is whether they can achieve the 21k average for the season. Personally I don't think they can or will. Have they made sufficient cost savings or generated sufficient extra income elsewhere to balance the books and hit the bond covenants in that case.
Are they in terminal trouble I think we both agree no. Do they have problems to address yes and again we agree.
What the financial problems might be are not wholly or largely dependent upon the amount of free tickets available. They have options to decide and decisions to take certainly. At this stage there are solutions in their control.
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