No. We’re the opposition and we aren’t shutting up.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (208 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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No. We’re the opposition and we aren’t shutting up.
dutchman
Well-Known Member
As far as I can tell Britain is leaving in name only. It will still be paying membership fees and abiding by EU rules for the foreseeable future. The rest is just a brainwashing exercising by the media.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
No - as an employee that has worked with such big businesses & their dictators
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SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Nobody...predictive txt at work there methinks. UK most definitely IS leaving voluntarily.
Sorry for any confusion there!
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SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Nor should you shut...but stop going over & over the same old shit that hasn't won the arguments already
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Astute
Well-Known Member
But if we stay the normal vote on everything could be taken away. If you don't like it you would have to leave the EU.
We joined a customs union. It became the EU. Now they want it to become a dictatorship. Yet you call it democracy
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
We joined a customs union. It became the EU. Now they want it to become a dictatorship. Yet you call it democracy
Spoken like a true neutral.
Astute
Well-Known Member
I now want out.
I started out as remain but close to sitting on fence. Remain for me but leave for my younger kids future.
No way do I want the UK to be any part of a dictatorship. It would be dangerous ground.
And instead of going on about neutrality how about your thoughts on the EU becoming a dictatorship?
dutchman
Well-Known Member
It's certainly a million miles different now from how those who founded it envisioned it becoming, and my grandfather (left) was one of them.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
You've always been a leaver, respect for finally coming out with it.
If the EU were a dictatorship, I'm not sure we'd actually be able to leave.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Strangely enough I constantly had a go at about everyone involved. I got accused several times of backing up May. But nobody could find where I did. I got accused of agreeing with Farage several times. But nobody could find anywhere that I did. I got accused of being a Tory because I know Labour could do much better than Corbyn. I mentioned no end of the lies from bith sides before the Brexit vote. But the leavers only remembered me mentioning the remain lies and only mentioned the leave lies constantly. The remoaners can't stand it when I point out where they have been seen to be wrong. The leavers agree most of the time when I say where the leave side were wrong because most of them agree.
Then you have someone like yourself who is so biased and try to make out that I am. But since it has come out that they want one person steering the ship EU enterprise, someone to be able to go into countries and take over their finances and now they want the countries to agree to lose their vote or get kicked out of the EU I am 100% behind leave.
What I do want now is a good deal. And I can't understand anybody who doesn't.
dutchman
Well-Known Member
So you're shit out of luck there then?
Yes, well, if you say so.
I don’t think dictators ask whether people are in agreement or not. And if they are not in agreement, they can take back their so called sovereignty and sail off into a glorious sunset.
Yes the EU has evolved over 40 years and is still evolving. The British Parliament is not the same as in Victorian times either. Did we have a referendum on abolishing property qualifications to be able to vote, or on allowing women to vote?
Of course we didn’t. Why should we have a referendum on every step of the EU? We have a sovereign Parliament of elected MPs who either approved of steps in EU evolution, or in the case of the Euro or Schengen didn’t approve. Then you claim the EU, of which we were in the top 3 most powerful members, is a dictatorship. Too much Daily Express reading.
And trade and cooperation is a million miles more integrated than then. Great.
But if we stay the normal vote on everything could be taken away. If you don't like it you would have to leave the EU.
We joined a customs union. It became the EU. Now they want it to become a dictatorship.
And you call it democracy
Asking people to approve or disapprove new rules, including majority voting, is not a dictatorship.
Look it up in a dictionary.
People like posting new shit.... like saying we are not leaving voluntarily or that the EU wants to become a dictatorship by introducing majority voting. I just like to call them out on it.
I don’t see why they should get away with it.
Astute
Well-Known Member
They will be told what to do. Theu won't get a say on the matter. They will be ruled by Brussels. They said reforms would be made and if they didn't like not being able to veto it they would have to leave.
But as it is Germany who wants it you will be happy.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Who is the 'we'?
The British people apparently.
Astute
Well-Known Member
You said that they were not leaving voluntarily. Are you now saying that they are?
Isn't it amazing how you change your view depending on what is being said at the time. Like the two most voted for parties couldn't join with others to make a majority coalition because the AfD would be the strongest party. And the third strongest party in Germany are racist. But now it looks like they could get together it doesn't matter that the main opposition to the coalition government will be a racist party.
Having a say means deciding if they accept majority voting. How does majority voting mean that one country rules?
The UK are leaving voluntarily. I have always said that. Someone else denied it, not me. Stop making things up.
No one wants the AfD to be the opposition party. But, seeing as the FDP walked out of the coalition talks, it may yet happen. How have I changed my opinion? Ask the FDP why they didn’t stop that.
Astute
Well-Known Member
So where didd he say majority voting?
Schulz said that the EU was going to reform. And if countries didn't like it they had to leave the EU. But Merkel is against it. Why would Merkel be against only needing a majority vote instead of everyone having to vote yes for everything?
Astute
Well-Known Member
You said that they couldn't join together as it would be a catastrophe if the AfD were the biggest party against the coalition. Now it isn't?
Saying that you also said that 1 in 8 Germans voting for a racist party was insignificant. Would you still say the same if they were the largest party in opposition?
Astute
Well-Known Member
So are you now saying that it was democracy and we have chosen voluntarily?
I look forward to the next time you contradict this.
He wants to do away with veto and replace it with majority voting- which is what you want as you are against vetos from small countries.
Merkel‘s Party has other priorities. Immigration, families of refugees, integration. Söder from the CSU who will be the next leader of CSU is right wing and wants to crack down on non EU immigration.
A United States of Europe doesn’t appeal to these conservative parties. CDU reckons Merkel is quite capable of going alone in a minority government.
I have never said anything else. I said imo it was a mistake and that we should never have made this decision based on an advisory referendum. The country is leaving despite it being only an advisory referendum on a voluntary basis.
Yes it is a catastrophe. As I said, and I also said they would join together, but the FDP surprised everyone. And it is still hasn’t been decided if there will be a coalition with the SPD.
I didn’t say the AfD was insignificant. 12,5% against 87,5% puts it in perspective though. I said they would not be in power as no one will have them in a coalition. I also said they are regional.
The surprise is the FDP not wanting to govern.
The SPD don’t want AfD to be the main opposition, but Steinmeier has talked them into having a go at a coalition in the interests of a strong and stable government. They are split on this, but have agreed to enter unconditional talks with CDU/CSU.
Schulz’ Vision: Time for a European government
As he says the European Parliament plus a second chamber made up of representatives of countries. That is without veto and with majority voting as in the German Federal System. Which is more democratic than our two chamber system- but you call it a dictatorship because you read the Express.
Astute
Well-Known Member
https://www.economist.com/blogs/kaffeeklatsch/2017/12/use-value-0
Martin Schulz wants 'United States of Europe' within eight years
Would you like to change your version again? I can supply you as many links as you like to prove it isn't just the majority vote as you say but losing the right to vote against constitutional changes. France wants it to happen before 2024. He has said 2025. Merkel doesn't want it at all.
Astute
Well-Known Member
So you have never said that it isn't democracy? :banghead:
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
The only mandatory voting I have ever heard of came from dictatorships. Personally, I support the right to abstain.
No. It is about replacing the commission with a real government. The EU Parliament and a second chamber made up of countries‘ representatives - as in the German federal system. If they don’t agree to what is, in effect, more democracy, then they automatically leave. This abolishes veto rights.
Your posts confirm what I said.
I also said that the CDU, Merkel‘s Party, don’t want to support this. One reason being they don’t see it as a priority.
You said Merkel doesn’t want it. I only know what her party have said. Maybe she agrees with her party. Her party will decide as she is not a dictator as you claim.
Mandatory or not, it was sold as an advisory referendum.
Yes. That is correct. We agree on that.