The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (246 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

Oh I've hit a nerve haven't I.

You're German now. I don't see what any of this has to do with you anymore.

What a ridiculous and narrow minded comment.

 

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[Sick Boy]

And trying to show what a forward looking European country we are.... having backed backwards Brexit.

It's becoming increasingly clear it was all about his career as opposed to genuinely thinking it was a good idea.

 

[martcov]

Oh I've hit a nerve haven't I.

You're German now. I don't see what any of this has to do with you anymore.

No. You just made a stupid comment. I am not a snowflake and have given up being polite. I am in the „call it as it is club“ now. I haven’t got my citizenship yet, but now have the necessary certificates for language and „integration“. I will hand them in when I get home. In Berlin at the moment.... Angie and a host of VIPs from all over the world were around this morning.., she didn’t see me though...

Germany allows dual citizenship for EU citizens, so I will remain British. Sigmar Gabriel, Vice Chancellor, wants Brits to keep dual citizenship after Brexit...

There is a case going on in Holland about Brits wanting to stay in Holland after Brexit. Holland doesn’t allow them to get Dutch citizenship/ dual nationality. See what happens there. The EU doesn’t allow rights to be taken away from it’s citizens, unlike Brexit Britain, so what happens to Brits who are EU citizens at the moment living in the EU, after Brexit?

 

[martcov]

And BTW, there are fantastic stands on the Green Week, Berlin from all over the world.. beautiful food and drinks stands. Representatives from governments visiting their country‘s stand. Meetings, receptions talks, discussions etc.. Where is global Britain... ? massive agriculture products - food - fair open to trade and public... We have nothing, whilst Bulgaria has a whole hall and Marocco is partner country. I am opposite Tunisia... no Britain. A disgrace and just shows how fxxked up Britain really is. Don’t we have food products to export? Or are we no longer interested in Europe as a market? I am selling Irish Products.... beer...and whiskey.. so I’m ok.

But I will be called anti British for pointing this out...

 

[Captain Dart]

An alternative idea.

 

[martcov]

I'm glad you used the word fear and not phobia. The latter would suggest that it was irrational, which it clearly is not.

How many of the circa 1 million refugees actually came to Britain? What was Farage‘s poster ( the style copied from the Nazis ) actually suggesting? Did it ever take place as he suggested?

 

[martcov]

An alternative idea.

Would maybe qualify for EU support..... oh wait....

 

[Kingokings204]

Would maybe qualify for EU support..... oh wait....

The money we pay in you mean.

 

[clint van damme]

Would maybe qualify for EU support..... oh wait....

The money we pay in you mean.

Already earmarked for the NHS. The big red bus said so.

Not sure where the money for the tens of billions of PFI payments is going to come from.
I know it won't be from corporate tax increases, high earner tax increases or closed tax evasion loop holes.
But more than likely health budget, education budget, defence budget, security budget or all of the above!

 

[Sick Boy]

Already earmarked for the NHS. The big red bus said so.

Not sure where the money for the tens of billions of PFI payments is going to come from.
I know it won't be from corporate tax increases, high earner tax increases or closed tax evasion loop holes.
But more than likely health budget, education budget, defence budget, security budget or all of the above!

Come on, that's all down to the EUSSR!!!

 

[martcov]

The money we pay in you mean.

Yes. Reducing our net contribution to the SM and CU. Having our cake and eating it.

 

[chiefdave]

 

[skybluetony176]

Basically everything that anyone who’s been “negative” about brexit has been saying. Still probably be our fault though when the shit hits the fan. The blame the people who didn’t vote for it as opposed to those who did stall was set out almost as soon as the result was known.

 

[skybluetony176]

Does this basically mean that Davies has lied twice to the commons? Initially saying that there was impact statements, then saying there wasn’t claiming to have been misunderstood because this looks very much like actually there is impact statements. To quote the article the government are too embarrassed to show them publicly. Embarrassed because of the content or embarrassed as it would implicate (given Davies claim and backtrack) that there’s a Whitehall whitewash happening?

 

[clint van damme]

Does this basically mean that Davies has lied twice to the commons? Initially saying that there was impact statements, then saying there wasn’t claiming to have been misunderstood because this looks very much like actually there is impact statements. To quote the article the government are too embarrassed to show them publicly. Embarrassed because of the content or embarrassed as it would implicate (given Davies claim and backtrack) that there’s a Whitehall whitewash happening?

he's lied to both parliament and the public at least twice and been clearly exposed. Can't think of many governments where he'd have been allowed to remain in his job.

 

[clint van damme]

Basically everything that anyone who’s been “negative” about brexit has been saying. Still probably be our fault though when the shit hits the fan. The blame the people who didn’t vote for it as opposed to those who did stall was set out almost as soon as the result was known.

how can you ignore the blue passports, (which we could have had anyway), and the new stamps, stop being negative.

 

[Sick Boy]

he's lied to both parliament and the public at least twice and been clearly exposed. Can't think of many governments where he'd have been allowed to remain in his job.

Or many other jobs for that matter!!

 

[martcov]

he's lied to both parliament and the public at least twice and been clearly exposed. Can't think of many governments where he'd have been allowed to remain in his job.

The fact that he has to lie is the most significant. If, he and others know that we are hurting ourselves, why are they pushing this disaster forwards? What are their motives? If a government asked for an analysis and got the answer that their actions would hurt the country, then normally they would drop the project. The main protagonists of Brexit in powerful positions are public school boys, wealthy hedge fund owner/ managers or newspaper owners with offshore accounts. Plus a well known career populist politician, ex Dulwich college and ex schoolboy 70s NF fan.

Are these really there to help the Chatham postalworkers, Lincolnshire potatoe pickers and the Northern English workers? Or are they usurping power for their own personal gain by deflecting on to the EU?

 

[skybluetony176]

how can you ignore the blue passports, (which we could have had anyway), and the new stamps, stop being negative.

Not forgetting twice as many pigs ears to China because Heir Merkel makes us put ID tags in one of the ears of pigs. Something is looking like a pigs ear is being made out of.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Basically everything that anyone who’s been “negative” about brexit has been saying. Still probably be our fault though when the shit hits the fan. The blame the people who didn’t vote for it as opposed to those who did stall was set out almost as soon as the result was known.

how can you ignore the blue passports, (which we could have had anyway), and the new stamps, stop being negative.

I can see a storm being whipped up about this again, but in reality it is nothing new. I would hazard a guess at nearly everyone that voted leave did so knowing that the economy would at least suffer in the short term. That being said, we are continuously hearing that it isn't as bad as the scaremongering had indicated so who knows.

This vote was a cultural one, not an economic one, so you are talking about something that roughly half the country do not think is important in comparison to other things. If you want to argue that Brexit was a stupid idea based on economics then you might not be right, but you certainly have a strong argument for thinking that. When it comes to cultural factors, that's where you need to be looking in terms of debating whether it was the right decision or not.

Most Brexiteers will not see this leak to shitty Buzzfeed as anything particularly significant or new I'm afraid.

 

[clint van damme]

I can see a storm being whipped up about this again, but in reality it is nothing new. I would hazard a guess at nearly everyone that voted leave did so knowing that the economy would at least suffer in the short term. That being said, we are continuously hearing that it isn't as bad as the scaremongering had indicated so who knows.

This vote was a cultural one, not an economic one, so you are talking about something that roughly half the country do not think is important in comparison to other things. If you want to argue that Brexit was a stupid idea based on economics then you might not be right, but you certainly have a strong argument for thinking that. When it comes to cultural factors, that's where you need to be looking in terms of debating whether it was the right decision or not.

Most Brexiteers will not see this leak to shitty Buzzfeed as anything particularly significant or new I'm afraid.

and again, many people claim it wasn't a cultural decision but an economic one. Proving that there is no consensus on what the vote actually meant.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

and again, many people claim it wasn't a cultural decision but an economic one. Proving that there is no consensus on what the vote actually meant.

Like who? Sorry, but that's nonsense.

It was a cultural vote.

 

[clint van damme]

Like who? Sorry, but that's nonsense.

It was a cultural vote.

I'm currently sat less that t10 feet away from 2 people who say the economic s of it and not paying into the EU were one of the main factors.
If you think it meant the same thing to 17 million people then you're the one talking nonsense.

.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I'm currently sat less that t10 feet away from 2 people who say the economic s of it and not paying into the EU were one of the main factors.
If you think it meant the same thing to 17 million people then you're the one talking nonsense.

.

I never said the economy is a non-issue, I said it is not as big as cultural factors. The cultural factors were what pushed the winning 2%. It was also largely what pushed people who would have been in the middle to vote leave.

Of course if you word a question in a nice way to two people conveniently sitting next you 'if paying into the EU' is part of why they voted leave, of course they are going to say yes.


It was a cultural vote, not an economic one. If it had been done on economics alone it would not have won, if it was done on cultural reasons alone it probably still would have.

The problem is, Remain know they can't really win when it comes to the cultural factors so they target the economy argument. Trying to force that plays as a home game for them. Sadly, it's mostly a case of barking up the wrong tree.

 

[chiefdave]

This vote was a cultural one, not an economic one

What? According to who? I seem to remember being repeatedly told how much better off we'd be and how we would be in the driving seat as every other country needed us more than we needed them.

 

[clint van damme]

I never said the economy is a non-issue, I said it is not as big as cultural factors. The cultural factors were what pushed the winning 2%. It was also largely what pushed people who would have been in the middle to vote leave.

Of course if you word a question in a nice way to two people conveniently sitting next you 'if paying into the EU' is part of why they voted leave, of course they are going to say yes.


It was a cultural vote, not an economic one. If it had been done on economics alone it would not have won, if it was done on cultural reasons alone it probably still would have.

The problem is, Remain know they can't really win when it comes to the cultural factors so they target the economy argument. Trying to force that plays as a home game for them. Sadly, it's mostly a case of barking up the wrong tree.

I didn't ask the people in my office, they offered their opinion, as those who voted brexit because of immigration did and those who voted remain did whenever we discussed it.

If it's not about the economy why is so much of this thread dominated by talk of the economy? Why is the cabinet split over economic as well as cultural issues?

People aren't targeting the economic arguments, the economy going to shit, (if it does), will affect us all far more than the cultural factors. That's why it is at the forefront of these arguments, (and obviously there is a certain amount of overlap between the two).

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

What? According to who? I seem to remember being repeatedly told how much better off we'd be and how we would be in the driving seat as every other country needed us more than we needed them.

I didn't ask the people in my office, they offered their opinion, as those who voted brexit because of immigration did and those who voted remain did whenever we discussed it.

If it's not about the economy why is so much of this thread dominated by talk of the economy? Why is the cabinet split over economic as well as cultural issues?

People aren't targeting the economic arguments, the economy going to shit, (if it does), will affect us all far more than the cultural factors. That's why it is at the forefront of these arguments, (and obviously there is a certain amount of overlap between the two).

When I raised this point a few months ago you all accepted it. It seems those attitudes may have changed.

The reason this thread is so full of economy talk is because it is full of remain voters trying to continually warn/gloat/worry/scaremonger (not having a go) about the economy. Every time cultural things are brought up they get watered down or brushed aside.

Yes, some people do believe we will be better economically in the long run being out of the EU, and sure that would have been on people's minds, but every time something like the buzzfeed leak comes out it get's the same response from both sides.

Remain: .See, leave voters are thick but blue passports though'.
Leave: 'We've heard this a million times and it doesn't effect my opinion on why I voted.'

The conclusion is that the point is being missed.

 

[clint van damme]

When I raised this point a few months ago you all accepted it. It seems those attitudes may have changed.

The reason this thread is so full of economy talk is because it is full of remain voters trying to continually warn/gloat/worry/scaremonger (not having a go) about the economy. Every time cultural things are brought up they get watered down or brushed aside.

Yes, some people do believe we will be better economically in the long run being out of the EU, and sure that would have been on people's minds, but every time something like the buzzfeed leak comes out it get's the same response from both sides.

Remain: .See, leave voters are thick but blue passports though'.
Leave: 'We've heard this a million times and it doesn't effect my opinion on why I voted.'

The conclusion is that the point is being missed.

I didn't accept any point. People voted for a whole host of reasons. That's why there were several pro leave groups all with different agendas.

Do you seriously think that George Galloway wants the same BrexIt as Aaron banks?

People bring up the econmy because our enconmy is performing poorly compare to to G7 and major Eurpoean ecomonies. That's not scaremongering, it's fact though you'll probably try to deny it despite the evidence. And a poorly performing economy has a direct affect on our daily lives. Wage contraction, steep rise in crime due to police cuts, underfunded NHS - all important issue to me and I would guess most people though I won't claim to speak for millions of others as you are.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I didn't accept any point. People voted for a whole host of reasons. That's why there were several pro leave groups all with different agendas.

Do you seriously think that George Galloway wants the same BrexIt as Aaron banks?

People bring up the econmy because our enconmy is performing poorly compare to to G7 and major Eurpoean ecomonies. That's not scaremongering, it's fact though you'll probably try to deny it despite the evidence. And a poorly performing economy has a direct affect on our daily lives. Wage contraction, steep rise in crime due to police cuts, underfunded NHS - all important issue to me and I would guess most people though I won't claim to speak for millions of others as you are.

All of that was happening with an apparently 'booming' economy. GDP growth has lost all meaning to be people, they don't get a share of it in any case. I'd suggest that a lot of leave voters are fed up of hearing about economic growth, low and middle earners have seen wages decline despite apparent growth. Why would they really be that bothered about these arguments?

 

[skybluetony176]

WTF does cultural reasons mean. I’ve heard it all now. The nearest I can come to have experienced voting out for cultural reasons is a mate who doesn’t want anymore Polish or Eastern European shops opening up. He is a massive racist and open about it mind.

 

[clint van damme]

All of that was happening with an apparently 'booming' economy. GDP growth has lost all meaning to be people, they don't get a share of it in any case. I'd suggest that a lot of leave voters are fed up of hearing about economic growth, low and middle earners have seen wages decline despite apparent growth. Why would they really be that bothered about these arguments?

Agree with you about GDP. It doesn't measure if the growth is fairly distributed or if everyone is benefiting.
I think it's also a bit of an immoral measure.
Natural disasters add to a countries GDP. A pile up on the motorway can add to the GDP.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I didn't accept any point. People voted for a whole host of reasons. That's why there were several pro leave groups all with different agendas.

Do you seriously think that George Galloway wants the same BrexIt as Aaron banks?

People bring up the econmy because our enconmy is performing poorly compare to to G7 and major Eurpoean ecomonies. That's not scaremongering, it's fact though you'll probably try to deny it despite the evidence. And a poorly performing economy has a direct affect on our daily lives. Wage contraction, steep rise in crime due to police cuts, underfunded NHS - all important issue to me and I would guess most people though I won't claim to speak for millions of others as you are.

Why would I try and deny it? I would never try and argue that our economy is fabulous or will be better when we leave. It probably won't, and secondly we don't actually know what is going to happen anyway.

I'm saying you are focusing on completely the wrong thing. I don't claim to speak for 17 million people, but I certainly understand the reasons and the logic behind a leave vote more than you do. You'll also find many leave voters won't discuss Brexit with remain voters largely because they are so scared of getting abuse.

For you, the economy is a bigger issue than many other things, therefore you voted remain. Most leave voters would happily take a hit on the economy to get away from the EU. That's the basics of why the referendum went the way it did.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

WTF does cultural reasons mean. I’ve heard it all now. The nearest I can come to have experienced voting out for cultural reasons is a mate who doesn’t want anymore Polish or Eastern European shops opening up. He is a massive racist and open about it mind.

If you don't understand that then I have no idea what you are doing on a thread for a debate regarding the EU referendum. Of course you don't understand why people voted the way they did, and your arrogance gets in the way of acknowledging why this happened.

Your own exposure to a leave voter kind of confirms my points:

1) Leave voters don't think it's worth bringing up conversations with remainers through getting abuse.
2) You can't accept the vote because you are not prepared to try and understand it.

 

[clint van damme]

Why would I try and deny it? I would never try and argue that our economy is fabulous or will be better when we leave. It probably won't, and secondly we don't actually know what is going to happen anyway.

I'm saying you are focusing on completely the wrong thing. I don't claim to speak for 17 million people, but I certainly understand the reasons and the logic behind a leave vote more than you do. You'll also find many leave voters won't discuss Brexit with remain voters largely because they are so scared of getting abuse.

For you, the economy is a bigger issue than many other things, therefore you voted remain. Most leave voters would happily take a hit on the economy to get away from the EU. That's the basics of why the referendum went the way it did.

i think there was a sizeable amount who believe that getting away from the EU will benefit the economy. I think the graph I posted proves that.
There will also be those who want to stay in the customs union and maintain freedom of movement.

And as usual you're making things up to try and prove your point.
We discuss Brexit at work, no one get's abusive or is scared to give their opinion.
Secondly, I do accept the vote. I have said time and time again that I would not support a 2nd referendum. But when I see people trying to counter poor economic growth with bollocks about new coloured passport covers then I'm going to speak up about it.

 

[fernandopartridge]

WTF does cultural reasons mean. I’ve heard it all now. The nearest I can come to have experienced voting out for cultural reasons is a mate who doesn’t want anymore Polish or Eastern European shops opening up. He is a massive racist and open about it mind.

I love the polish shops myself, they do great stuff like big jars of sauerkraut and that polish mayonnaise (which is superb). Some of them have good ham counters.