Bearing in mind the threadbare nature of the team... (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter Mary_Mungo_Midge
- Start date
Colonel Mustard
New Member
I don't believe that a full season is necessary or always possible. Obviously the longer a manager is in charge, the fuller the assessment can be. But football is played in a league system with both the stick of relegation and carrot of promotion making it a particularly transitory business.
Now, ownership can and should be judged over a long period of time. Norwich's ownership, for example, did a fine long-term job of increasing attendance through intuitive schemes. But with the manager, sometimes you have to make an educated guess before all the results are in if it means staving off relegation. Take Iain Dowie as an example - many look on him fondly, mainly due to his cup heroics, but a glance at the league form shows that the team was nosediving for three months. Maybe he would have turned things around, but there was no good reason to believe that was the case, so I supported his sacking.
Depends somewhat. If CCFC survived because one or two clubs suffered a points deduction, then one must take that into account (as well as perhaps giving SISU some credit for not putting CCFC into an administration situation). Would survival be on the basis of a total turnaround from the side, romping to multiple big wins, or scraping by because other teams faltered? The surest way of assessment is to look at what AT does with what he has, and he has not been impressive as a low-budget manager...so far.
I wasn't saying that Norwood or Nimely represent a significant cash injection. I was saying that any manager can reasonably expect their results to improve with better signings; that doesn't necessarily make them better managers. You can only assess based on what they do with what they've got. I am not yet won over to the idea that AT is doing as much as is possible with the resources at his disposal.
BackRoomRummermill
Well-Known Member
The point is Torchy nothing would please me more if we stayed up, I cant see it wth AT I am afraid. We won tonight not on form or any rational reason other that we got two breaks which we are overdue.
I hope I am never in the situation to say I told you so, unfortunately I am already there with AT and would not want to be smug as of course that will spell disater for the Sky Blues when relegated.
I appreciate the stick with the manger theory but in this case we need to actually get a manager with experience as I believe the team can get us out of this.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Sorry BRR, you try and castigate me for being personal, yet half an hour earlier you deemed Thorn a 'clusterfuck manager'? Are you being deliberately disingenuous?
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
I would love to stay and debate away, CM; as I see frailties in your debate which I think need to stand further scrutinty. Alas, for now I have to withdraw my sword as I have an early start. Night all
Grendel
Well-Known Member
It is a curiosity that people can smirk after one win and say where are the Thorn out brigade now yet by the same token hurl abuse at said people if they dare criticise the manager after defeat after defeat. Do they not appreciate the irony of that behaviour?
The truth was that tonight was a good night. For one of the few times this season the team played with intensity and they certainly deployed width and were pressing for a win late in the game. This is where the paradox of course does exist. Constantly we are lectured by those who know better this is an awful squad of players, worst in the league and yet they can match superior sides and can compete on an equal basis on occasions especially when at home.
Generally my frustration has always been that this is a tight league and commitment, organisation and tactical awareness are vital in securing points that are needed. We have ditched points for sure which should have been gained (Palace, Blackpool, Ipswich etc.) and these will be key determinants at the end of the season. Even Thorn admirers have to question why the away form is so poor and acknowledge if the team can match a lot of teams at home why not away at all?
It is equally disingenuous to suggest in victory Thorn has to be applauded but in defeat he can preach the Third Amendment.
The truth was that tonight was a good night. For one of the few times this season the team played with intensity and they certainly deployed width and were pressing for a win late in the game. This is where the paradox of course does exist. Constantly we are lectured by those who know better this is an awful squad of players, worst in the league and yet they can match superior sides and can compete on an equal basis on occasions especially when at home.
Generally my frustration has always been that this is a tight league and commitment, organisation and tactical awareness are vital in securing points that are needed. We have ditched points for sure which should have been gained (Palace, Blackpool, Ipswich etc.) and these will be key determinants at the end of the season. Even Thorn admirers have to question why the away form is so poor and acknowledge if the team can match a lot of teams at home why not away at all?
It is equally disingenuous to suggest in victory Thorn has to be applauded but in defeat he can preach the Third Amendment.
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Bang on. It's what me and my mate said when we got on top of them first half-"This really is an incredible performance for the side we have out: down to the bare bones!"
The other thing that stood out was the spirit. To see a team that should have given up, or at least have a right to let their head drops, battle with such passion and ferocity was truly inspiring, and a huge credit to the managers motivational prowess. They're as fired up as they can be, despite everything.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I submit to your power of your intellectual debate
Short and to the point, waffle is your speciality
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Admit it there were a few big words in there and it got you all confused.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Fair enough
Astute
Well-Known Member
And then there is you and Duffy
Give AT shit when he gets it wrong, but never a pat on the back or aknowledgement when right. I have said all along we have missed the link from midfield to the goal. We now have that link. With the way AT has had a threadbare and quite poor squad playing and losing by a single goal I have also seen us not relegated like yourself. You just seem to get pleasure out of having a go at AT and anyone that can see the good in what he is doing. And as for DUFF
@richh87
Member
See this is the problem I have with the Thorn out brigade. They refuse to acknowledge the decimated squad due to SISU and take the very simplistic route of 'looking at the table' and reacting based on what they see there.
I suppose you think Paul Lambert and Brennan Rogers are doing 'average' jobs at their clubs because they're mid-table and that Mancini is doing an incredible job because they're top.
You have to weigh up the situation as a whole if you want to give a FAIR appraisal.
Otis
Well-Known Member
I do think most rational Sky Blue supporters do of course understand the limitations. It's just a tiny minority who totally blame just Thorn for our woes. There are so many factors invloved and I have always said we would struggle whoever was at the helm.
Most City fans are sensible and looking at it last night, that was the only team Thorn could have put out. The spirit of the players was great and I sincerely hope Thorn had something to do with instilling that in the team.
One thing we do need to get away from however is this delusion that people actually want Thorn to fail. I'm sure as City fans we'd all love him to do well. I would be chuffed to bits if he proved to be a success for us, I truly would. For me the probelm has been that with the situation we have been in, an older more experienced, wiser head was needed to help get us out of this mess.
Most City fans are sensible and looking at it last night, that was the only team Thorn could have put out. The spirit of the players was great and I sincerely hope Thorn had something to do with instilling that in the team.
One thing we do need to get away from however is this delusion that people actually want Thorn to fail. I'm sure as City fans we'd all love him to do well. I would be chuffed to bits if he proved to be a success for us, I truly would. For me the probelm has been that with the situation we have been in, an older more experienced, wiser head was needed to help get us out of this mess.
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Astute
Well-Known Member
Lack of goalscorers has been our problem. You can word it how you like.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I have already stated on a previous post that if the team survive by whatever means Thorn will have done his job and that he will then have earned the right of a new contract. I fail to see the negativity in that.
That to me appears to be a balanced view. The team played well last night and the tactics and team spirit were very good so of course Thorn deserves credit. The issue is as soon as somebody criticises lack of substitutions say at Blackpool this is not the fault of the manager but something (anything else). I agree to praise when appropriate, others will never criticise whatever the circumstance.
I do not see anything wrong with that view. I want the team to win and to proved wrong. That is obvious though I know if we go down even by one point some on here will 100% attribute that to other factors and 0% to the manger's tactics.
Hardly unreasonable.
That to me appears to be a balanced view. The team played well last night and the tactics and team spirit were very good so of course Thorn deserves credit. The issue is as soon as somebody criticises lack of substitutions say at Blackpool this is not the fault of the manager but something (anything else). I agree to praise when appropriate, others will never criticise whatever the circumstance.
I do not see anything wrong with that view. I want the team to win and to proved wrong. That is obvious though I know if we go down even by one point some on here will 100% attribute that to other factors and 0% to the manger's tactics.
Hardly unreasonable.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Against blackpool making subs would have broken play up regardless of personell changes. I have stared above the tactics were good last night in adverse situations so thorn had a good night. Don't see anything wrong in that statement.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The key word people are looking for is 'context'. Roberto Mancini constantly earning plaudits for Man City's performances is never put in the context of Arab oil cash funding their attempted title purchase. Equally, Thorn bashers saying 'the stats show he's the worst manager in City's history', are technically right to say that, but again, it's not put in context of the circumstances he's working in.
However, people can be sycophantic in defending the man, and see any criticism as a pro-SISU, anti-CCFC jibe. Would he have been appointed if the finances weren't so dire? Probably not. Is he the finished article as a manager? Definitely not. But what 14/15 single goal defeats suggest is-despite heavy player departures, a lack of backroom staff, and negligible transfer support, we're still not being played off the park. Indeed, we're one or two decent strikers away from being perfectly competitive at this level.
Otis
Well-Known Member
AT was going to bring subs on. Luckily for us though, Redfearn made subs and totally cocked it up when he took a striker off and brought a defender on. That then gave the initiative to us. Thorn didn't have to change anything after that.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
BSB that is a far comment good post.
As the relegation gap closes it is clear the only real hope to stay up is to win the majority of games at home. In theory this is achievable with many mid table teams to play.
Hopefully supporters will now forget their issues with manager, ownershp troubles etc. and focus on the one thing in the short term that matters - survival. I am hoping for 17,000 home fans against Barnsley to create a big atmosphere. More hope than expectation I would say.
As the relegation gap closes it is clear the only real hope to stay up is to win the majority of games at home. In theory this is achievable with many mid table teams to play.
Hopefully supporters will now forget their issues with manager, ownershp troubles etc. and focus on the one thing in the short term that matters - survival. I am hoping for 17,000 home fans against Barnsley to create a big atmosphere. More hope than expectation I would say.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Personally am happy to say AT and the team got it right last night. Have no problem in having an opinion on his merits or failings and expressing my views on both. Think you will find I have expressed both before on other threads. It doesnt have to be the same opinion as anyone else or need to be justified and in my own mind has been fair - am sure plenty would disagree but thats just their opinion i dont have a problem with that
AT is going to have good and bad days - last night was a good day. I didnt disagree with how the team played or the decisions AT made. We won, we deserved to win, AT is part of the set up that achieved that as he is for games like Blackpool away when in my opinion he had a bad day. He isnt to blame for all the ills at CCFC - never has been - but he contributes to all that happens good or bad
However last night hasnt changed my opinion overall. I still remain unconvinced by him as a manager. Happy to be proven wrong and happy to say so if it happens - but my own criteria for that is staying up (that might seem unreasonable but i think there have been sufficient in the squad overall to do that this season but hey its just my opinion)
AT is going to have good and bad days - last night was a good day. I didnt disagree with how the team played or the decisions AT made. We won, we deserved to win, AT is part of the set up that achieved that as he is for games like Blackpool away when in my opinion he had a bad day. He isnt to blame for all the ills at CCFC - never has been - but he contributes to all that happens good or bad
However last night hasnt changed my opinion overall. I still remain unconvinced by him as a manager. Happy to be proven wrong and happy to say so if it happens - but my own criteria for that is staying up (that might seem unreasonable but i think there have been sufficient in the squad overall to do that this season but hey its just my opinion)
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Colonel Mustard
New Member
He'll get a pat on the back from me when the points-per-game average significantly increases. I hope that you were this vocal about 'back-patting' during the most turgid periods of the reigns of Coleman, Dowie, Reid, Boothroyd et al.
Childish comment, again. Exactly how many times do I have to say that I'd rather be proven wrong and see AT turn it around and CCFC survive? The club always comes first for me.
You'll always find yourself disagreeing with other fans. You disagree with me, but I don't accuse you of taking pleasure out of it. I agree with Torchomatic on the uselessness of Dowie and Richardson, but not on this for example. And I'll always back up my opinion.
I suggest you toughen your mindset if you're so opposed to opinions that differ from your own.
Colonel Mustard
New Member
Any true fan of CCFC who happens to be dubious about AT as manager will wish to be proven wrong about him. Let's get that absolutely straight.
But look. Most of those who have been calling for a change in manager have been doing so for a long time (in my case since November). That doesn't change with one win, especially in the context of five losses out of seven, which only further vindicates my long-held beliefs as far as I'm concerned.
I hope AT turns it around, because it's fairly clear he is here until the end of the season. This really is Bizarro World though, where AT is excused for every loss, and then 'pats on the back' (to put it mildly) are sought when he wins. Anybody should be able to see that is an unhealthy formula for evaluating, well, anything.
Colonel Mustard
New Member
Hypothetical situation. Focus on what he actually achieves, which in yesterday's case was a win with clearly ramped-up players.
Astute
Well-Known Member
I take that as a yes then.
Colonel Mustard
New Member
In your situation that never occurred? Again, I don't know what would have happened in your situation that never occurred. Sorry I cannot be of more help.
Nick
Administrator
It depends, if we were under pressure for the last 15 - 20 and it looked obvious and he didnt do anything then he would play a part. If we were hammering them and they had a hoof down and scored it wouldn't be his fault (in my opinion)
Last night I think the starting lineup picked it's self, the tactics seemed to work great as we were all over them.