The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (34 Viewers)

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
Robert Peston’s take on things. Very insightful.

The EU’s guidelines for trade talks with the UK, which will be sent to EU members tomorrow or possibly later today, will confirm - if it were needed - that size matters in such commercial talks.

Because they will show that the countries remaining inside the EU’s giant single market intend to dictate the nature of our future access to that market - and that most of the rest of the EU has only limited enthusiasm for Theresa May’s vision of a trading partnership based on mutual recognition of rules and regulations.

The EU’s president Donald Tusk has listened politely to what the PM said on Friday about the kind of access we would like, namely a broader and deeper trading relationship than a classic free trade deal or FTA, and will respond with a conditional but unambiguous “no”.

Or rather his guidelines will signal that what the EU is prepared to negotiate is the least of what the PM wants, namely a free trade agreement similar to the arrangement it has with Canada - unless the prime minister is prepared to surrender some (at least) of her red lines.

Her hopes that so-called mutual recognition of our standards would provide many of the benefits of membership of the single market and customs union will be dashed - unless she is prepared to cross the red line that would then see her run over by Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson in that giant red Brexit bus, namely that the European Court of Justice must be the arbiter of whether the rules for our businesses really are in spirit and effect the same as theirs.

There is simply not the faintest chance that EU government heads will waiver from what for them is the sacred principle that when it comes to interpreting their law, their court has to be supreme.

British officials and ministers can huff and puff all they like that this is unreasonable, that there is plenty of precedent for other supranational bodies acting as permanent arbitrator of the kind of arrangement we want.

But the EU will say what matters far more is that the success of their single market is based on the primacy of European law. And they will not waiver from that principle.

By the way they will be minded to waiver even less by the success of eurosceptic populists in Italy’s general election. Compromise with the UK beyond a very limited point would be seen to encourage anti-EU politicians everywhere - which is the last thing they want.

For what it is worth, EU governments were pleased to hear Theresa May acknowledge that the UK cannot have the benefits of EU membership without the obligations. But they don’t think she yet properly understands which obligations are for them irrevocably paired with the commercial benefits we want to retain.

By the way this is a particularly chilling for the City and financial service firms - because it makes the government’s hope that a mutual-recognition deal on regulations would deliver the benefits to them of single-market membership even more unrealistic than it is for manufacturers.

A clear eyed assessment of all this presents the PM with three choices.

She can negotiate in the knowledge that the tariff-free and frictionless access to the single market she seeks will require her to sacrifice her red lines - most notably the supremacy of British law over European law, the future right to negotiate free trade deals with third-party countries like the US and China, and the end of meaningful payments into the EU’s budget.

But if she moves thither, she would have to appeal for support in Parliament above the heads of her Brexiter ministers and MPs - and that might well destroy her party.

So that it isn’t going to happen.

Or she could face up to reality and publicly acknowledge that the UK won’t get better than a Canada-style free trade deal, for as long as she insists on her red lines.

But parliament would never vote for such a limited deal. And as and when Parliament rejected such a deal, or it became clear that it would, she would be forced to reconsider the sanctity of her red lines - which would (obvs) also split her party.

So that isn’t going to happen either.

What is going to happen is that the conceit will be sustained by her and her colleagues that her speech is a rational basis for negotiation.

She will kick the can down the road in the Micawberish hope that something will turn up.

As a result, Brexit negotiations will continue to suck all the energy and initiative out of this government, and for many months and years they will continue to crowd out all other sensible government business.

Arguably the tragedy of Brexit is not Brexit itself, but the opportunity cost it represents, the way that it is preventing the UK mend itself.

The PM ended her important Brexit address on Friday by saying “let’s get in with it”. But those words will remain hollow until she is prepared to choose between what parliament would support and what would keep her party whole.
Not insightful at all. Its Robert Peston's informed & considered opinion. It's no more insightful or valid than martcov's or Grendel's 'take on things'.

The more people say about what the outcome will be...the more chance they give themselves of boosting their ego with a 'told you so' once the outcomes are confirmed.

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Grendel

Well-Known Member
Not insightful at all. Its Robert Peston's informed & considered opinion. It's no more insightful or valid than martcov's or Grendel's 'take on things'.

The more people say about what the outcome will be...the more chance they give themselves of boosting their ego with a 'told you so' once the outcomes are confirmed.

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Peston? That clown doesn’t even know who he works for.
 

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
Another spanner in the works. They hope to find a compromise sometime in the future....... In the open skies agreement the airline company had to be majority EU owned, now it has to be majority U.K. owned on flights from the U.K. to the USA. I don’t know how far they have got on flights from the U.K. to and from the EU. Maybe with some airlines you will fly to the USA via Frankfurt or Paris.
What - & add at least a couple of hrs each way to the journey? You really think US businesses will wear that? All that British tourism under threat too?

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Sick Boy

Super Moderator
And here is the normal bullshit. You were leaving the UK because of the racism towards your partner. Now it wasn't said.

If you can find any proof of that then give it a go. It has most certainly been a contributing factor, she actually got a mouthful of xenophobic abuse from a moron who was racially abusing a pakistani woman about to give birth.

We are also going to be closer to her family, better weather, better quality of life etc as well...as I said on here, we'd been going regardless of Brexit.
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
What - & add at least a couple of hrs each way to the journey? You really think US businesses will wear that? All that British tourism under threat too?

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Sounds like the old they sell us prosecco and cheese etc line.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
What - & add at least a couple of hrs each way to the journey? You really think US businesses will wear that? All that British tourism under threat too?

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The bilateral agreement will still be ok for US carriers. Their status hasn’t changed. So they can still fly to London. ( As I understand it. ) Just some European airlines will be effected and will have to use EU take off airports.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
What - & add at least a couple of hrs each way to the journey? You really think US businesses will wear that? All that British tourism under threat too?

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Aerlingus already fly to New York via Dublin. And you can pre-clear immigration at Dublin as well meaning you can fast track through when you arrive in America. They’re advertising it quite a lot all of a sudden. Wonder why?
 

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
Aerlingus already fly to New York via Dublin. And you can pre-clear immigration at Dublin as well meaning you can fast track through when you arrive in America. They’re advertising it quite a lot all of a sudden. Wonder why?
Because they wish to create a perception & behaviour NOW that will bring them money...especially in the future. However, for the EU to thwart UK carriers they will need to have pretty strong rules in situe (if they decide to play hardball)...but that will probably mean the UK impose stingent rules for all EU carriers in retaliation so it will mostly just inconvenience those would currently be direct travellers to & from the UK &/or EU

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skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Because they wish to create a perception & behaviour NOW that will bring them money...especially in the future. However, for the EU to thwart UK carriers they will need to have pretty strong rules in situe (if they decide to play hardball)...but that will probably mean the UK impose stingent rules for all EU carriers in retaliation so it will mostly just inconvenience those would currently be direct travellers to & from the UK &/or EU

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It’s between the US and U.K. What’s the EU got to do with it? Us leaving the EU is what is causing the uncertainty and/or in the event of it not being as simple as crossing out EU and entering UK it will be a problem totally of our own doing.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Reading that UK driving licences won’t be recognised when we leave so we’ll have to apply for an international driving permit every time we want to drive in the EU or every twelve months if you’re a regular driver in the EU.
 

dutchman

Well-Known Member
Reading that UK driving licences won’t be recognised when we leave so we’ll have to apply for an international driving permit every time we want to drive in the EU or every twelve months if you’re a regular driver in the EU.
You didn't read that at all. You read that UK drivers *may* need an international driving permit *if* no mutual arrangement is agreed.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
You didn't read that at all. You read that UK drivers *may* need an international driving permit *if* no mutual arrangement is agreed.

At this moment in time we don’t have an agreement. So he is correct today. But, I cannot see either side being that stupid. Stupid yes, but not to the point of having to have a temporary licence to go abroad. We just cannot divorce ourselves from the EU completely. We will have to settle these problems by having the same regulations. On things like blue passports the Brexiteers point to „tangible benefits“, ( for themselves maybe, but is that the best they can offer as a counter argument to the disaster they are causing? ) but on not having EU recognised driving licences there would be no benefits whatsoever. Just more Brexit crap problems to be solved. Without the curse of Brexit we would be able to concentrate on problems such as lack of housing being built and the NHS. We wouldn‘t be arguing about what Brexit is. We would have no uncertainty, and therefore higher growth/ tax revenues, and would not have to pay the divorce payments whilst having no say in the EU. And we wouldn’t be recruiting thousands of civil servants to duplicate what the EU bureaucrats are doing.
 

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
It’s between the US and U.K. What’s the EU got to do with it? Us leaving the EU is what is causing the uncertainty and/or in the event of it not being as simple as crossing out EU and entering UK it will be a problem totally of our own doing.
It has an awful lot to do with the EU. Any 'agreement' or rules imposed as dictated by Brexit will affect UK & EU carriers. So just because US & British fly into Dublin then on Britain that will a. Give Britain the chance to make the rules work in it's favour too, & b. Still add at least 1-2hrs to the length of many traveller's journey even being fast-track transferred

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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
Reading that UK driving licences won’t be recognised when we leave so we’ll have to apply for an international driving permit every time we want to drive in the EU or every twelve months if you’re a regular driver in the EU.
That's a nice little Warner for us then. All those EU truckers will either have to buy a permit to drive in the UK - or it will create 00s of driving opportunities here.

When will people stop just looking for the negatives? Almost every negative provides some kind of new opportunity as well...panic ye not - some entrepreneurial type will find a positive & solution at some point. That's what businesses do - fulfil a need.

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skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
You didn't read that at all. You read that UK drivers *may* need an international driving permit *if* no mutual arrangement is agreed.
I read it on a “out means out”,”we know what we voted for” anti EU style Facebook page that someone I know linked. I know it “may” happen “if” but certain Facebook pages are trying to make certain things gospel before they’ve even been negotiated. TBF though the story has been around since we voted out and many papers of a certain leaning recycle it every six months when they want to say look how mean the EU are. Fact is people voted for how it was before. This is how it was before. Now they’re acting all surprised, shocked and disgusted when things return to how they were before.
 
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skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
It has an awful lot to do with the EU. Any 'agreement' or rules imposed as dictated by Brexit will affect UK & EU carriers. So just because US & British fly into Dublin then on Britain that will a. Give Britain the chance to make the rules work in it's favour too, & b. Still add at least 1-2hrs to the length of many traveller's journey even being fast-track transferred

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So what has our arrangements with the US got to do with the EU then once we leave the EU at our own free will? Isn’t that the point of leaving the EU so we can have our own deals with countries outside of the EU? It’s sounding like the very first time we hit a problem because we’ve left the EU we’re going to blame the EU anyway. Are we ever going to take ownership of brexit or are all the failures going to be the fault of those who didn’t vote for it or the fault of the EU?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Another thing I read on one of these Facebook pages last week was a complete misrepresentation of how import tariffs work. They were trying to make out that a no deal would cost Germany gazillions in tariffs every time they sold and shipped something to the U.K. as far as I know it’s the importer not exporter that pays the tariffs on entry so this is a cost that British business and therefore consumers will be paying not German manufactures as implied. Fake news? Deliberately misleading? Or just uneducated waffle? Either way it had a picture with it and as per Facebook law if it has a picture with it it must be true so the comments section was full of people agreeing with it, liking it and discussing how no deal will be the best deal.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Italians haven’t seen growth for 20 years now is it?

The election is bad bad news for the EU and the result yesterday is people turning for a different path to take.

Youth employment is still very high and it’s a direct opposite to here. The Italian youth don’t like the EU.
Youth employment here isn't great, it's masked by the raising of the compulsory education or training til 18, e.g. kids undertaking government traineeships (modern day YTS) are counted as employed when they're really not. Less than one in six then go on to gain an actual job.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
That's a nice little Warner for us then. All those EU truckers will either have to buy a permit to drive in the UK - or it will create 00s of driving opportunities here.

When will people stop just looking for the negatives? Almost every negative provides some kind of new opportunity as well...panic ye not - some entrepreneurial type will find a positive & solution at some point. That's what businesses do - fulfil a need.

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how do you work that one out?
I think the general premise of your post regarding drivers is correct but that statement makes no sense.
As for negatives, name some positives, actual positives, not just made up and imagined shit or stuff about stamps and passports.
 

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
So what has our arrangements with the US got to do with the EU then once we leave the EU at our own free will? Isn’t that the point of leaving the EU so we can have our own deals with countries outside of the EU? It’s sounding like the very first time we hit a problem because we’ve left the EU we’re going to blame the EU anyway. Are we ever going to take ownership of brexit or are all the failures going to be the fault of those who didn’t vote for it or the fault of the EU?
Perhaps I missed your point?
"Aerlingus already fly to New York via Dublin. And you can pre-clear immigration at Dublin as well meaning you can fast track through when you arrive in America. They’re advertising it quite a lot all of a sudden. Wonder why?"
What are you saying about the impact of this?

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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
how do you work that one out?
I think the general premise of your post regarding drivers is correct but that statement makes no sense.
As for negatives, name some positives, actual positives, not just made up and imagined shit or stuff about stamps and passports.
What I am saying is if the EU chooses to make UK drivers apply for permits to drive in the EU - UK can & might turn around & say likewise about EU drivers coming to the UK

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skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Perhaps I missed your point?
"Aerlingus already fly to New York via Dublin. And you can pre-clear immigration at Dublin as well meaning you can fast track through when you arrive in America. They’re advertising it quite a lot all of a sudden. Wonder why?"
What are you saying about the impact of this?

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I’m pointing out that an Irish carrier is already preparing to gain should there be in impact on U.K. carriers that fly to the US such as BA and Virgin and also IS carriers that fly to the U.K.. The Aerlingus prices are already attractive if you don’t mind going via Dublin. If U.K. carriers have to increase prices that will look only more attractive and if they have to fly via an EU hub as is being suggested that will make them more attractive again.

Seems Aerlingus has done their homework and have started preparing for the opportunity gain passenger numbers.
 

jimmyhillsfanclub

Well-Known Member
I see that ultra-c**t Tusk is "setting out" the EUs latest guidelines for trade talks.......

hes very quick to remind us again (how could we ever forget) that there can be no cherry picking......

.....yet his guidelines fail to include any financial services in the trade talks......funny that eh?

......and then the cheeky prick goes on to state that while there will be no UK membership of EU bodies or agencies post brexit, all EU vessels will retain their fishing rights in UK waters.....

......fuck off Donald.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
I’m pointing out that an Irish carrier is already preparing to gain should there be in impact on U.K. carriers that fly to the US such as BA and Virgin and also IS carriers that fly to the U.K.. The Aerlingus prices are already attractive if you don’t mind going via Dublin. If U.K. carriers have to increase prices that will look only more attractive and if they have to fly via an EU hub as is being suggested that will make them more attractive again.

Seems Aerlingus has done their homework and have started preparing for the opportunity gain passenger numbers.

Already preparing? They've been advertising these sorts of flights for years. It's a commercial decision Tony - Ireland itself is a small market so clearly they will advertise being the only place in the EU that currently has US preclearance and will want to fill those big planes going across the Atlantic. I don't imagine that ultimately BA will be that bothered, as BA technically owns Aer Lingus anyway through its merger with Iberia.
 

Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
Yeah I wouldn’t listen to that cretin o Leary either of Ryanair. He said he “may” ground planes to make a point of how bad brexit is?

I mean it’s laughable as it is damaging his own business.

Mix that in with driving licenses not valid and grounding of planes as I mentioned what are they doing? We’ve had the referendum and project fear lost.

I wouldn’t mind as much but if he grounds Ryanair planes and everyone books easyjet which easyjet said they would put on extra planes I.e business then they are only hurting themselves thus making it all pointless. I encourage it Mr o Leary. Do your worst.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Yeah I wouldn’t listen to that cretin o Leary either of Ryanair. He said he “may” ground planes to make a point of how bad brexit is?

I mean it’s laughable as it is damaging his own business.

Mix that in with driving licenses not valid and grounding of planes as I mentioned what are they doing? We’ve had the referendum and project fear lost.

I wouldn’t mind as much but if he grounds Ryanair planes and everyone books easyjet which easyjet said they would put on extra planes I.e business then they are only hurting themselves thus making it all pointless. I encourage it Mr o Leary. Do your worst.

So he is a cretin for doing something against his own interests just out of spite? What does make you leavers then?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
So he is a cretin for doing something against his own interests just out of spite? What does make you leavers then?

It’s not against our interests and he js a c**t
 

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
Yeah I wouldn’t listen to that cretin o Leary either of Ryanair. He said he “may” ground planes to make a point of how bad brexit is?

I mean it’s laughable as it is damaging his own business.

Mix that in with driving licenses not valid and grounding of planes as I mentioned what are they doing? We’ve had the referendum and project fear lost.

I wouldn’t mind as much but if he grounds Ryanair planes and everyone books easyjet which easyjet said they would put on extra planes I.e business then they are only hurting themselves thus making it all pointless. I encourage it Mr o Leary. Do your worst.

He, despite all his threats, also had an 'article 50 celebration' sale where they slashed prices across the board.

It's just another example of someone who didn't like the vote throwing their toys out of the pram.

What's more negative, Brexit itself or remain voters?
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
He, despite all his threats, also had an 'article 50 celebration' sale where they slashed prices across the board.

It's just another example of someone who didn't like the vote throwing their toys out of the pram.

What's more negative, Brexit itself or remain voters?

Nah, Brexit is massively positive and we have gained admiration from around the World. The outlook is getting better and better, and as it was claimed, the negotiations with the EU are the easiest in history and they are bowing down to our demands as they need us more than we need them.
 

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
Nah, Brexit is massively positive and we have gained admiration from around the World. The outlook is getting better and better, and as it was claimed, the negotiations with the EU are the easiest in history and they are bowing down to our demands as they need us more than we need them.

You didn't answer the question directly, which says a lot.
 

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
I’m pointing out that an Irish carrier is already preparing to gain should there be in impact on U.K. carriers that fly to the US such as BA and Virgin and also IS carriers that fly to the U.K.. The Aerlingus prices are already attractive if you don’t mind going via Dublin. If U.K. carriers have to increase prices that will look only more attractive and if they have to fly via an EU hub as is being suggested that will make them more attractive again.

Seems Aerlingus has done their homework and have started preparing for the opportunity gain passenger numbers.

Anyone with common sense would not fly to the USA via Ireland in a lifetime.

It adds on hours and you will probably lose your bags.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Already preparing? They've been advertising these sorts of flights for years. It's a commercial decision Tony - Ireland itself is a small market so clearly they will advertise being the only place in the EU that currently has US preclearance and will want to fill those big planes going across the Atlantic. I don't imagine that ultimately BA will be that bothered, as BA technically owns Aer Lingus anyway through its merger with Iberia.

Just spoke to Aer Lingus Germany. They say their flights to the USA go from Shannon and Dublin and they send their clients from Germany to Ireland to get to USA. Won’t effect them as they don’t fly London USA. As Tony says Aer Lingus may get more passengers from GB if carriers cannot comply with the bilateral agreement.
 

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