The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (62 Viewers)

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .

Astute

Well-Known Member
I haven’t made anything out. I have quoted the article that you’ve linked though.

And why was the port no one has ever heard of developed? Was it to take work away from other EU ports like Rotterdam by any chance? Would you admit that leaving the EU will change the dynamic of that?
Yes you quoted the part you could make look bad on the UK and ignored the rest. Then you made out that thousands are going to lose their jobs soon.

So how much trade for the rest of the EU comes through the UK. Because you make out that you know and that it is nearly all of it.

And BTW it is Immingham docks. And they have been there for over 100 years. Have you got anything else to blame them for that is false?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Yes you quoted the part you could make look bad on the UK and ignored the rest. Then you made out that thousands are going to lose their jobs soon.

So how much trade for the rest of the EU comes through the UK. Because you make out that you know and that it is nearly all of it.

And BTW it is Immingham docks. And they have been there for over 100 years. Have you got anything else to blame them for that is false?

Again I haven’t made out anything I’ve quoted the article you linked. Are you now dismissing the article you linked to back your argument? Am I not allowed to read and digest the article that you linked to back your argument? Not sure what you’re problem is other than you seem to have not comprehended what you’ve linked so you’re taking out on me because I have.
 
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Astute

Well-Known Member

Astute

Well-Known Member
Again I haven’t made out anything I’ve linked quoted the article you linked. Are you now dismissing the article you linked to back your argument? Am I not allowed to read and digest the article that you linked to back your argument? Not sure what you’re problem is other than you seem to have not comprehended what you’ve linked so you’re taking out on me because I have.
Not at all. And you know it.

You have made out that most trade from India comes through the UK to reach it's destination of the EU. You got this from a line saying India used to come to us first. Then you said many thousands of jobs will be lost because of it.

So how much comes through the UK on its way to the EU?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
This could be very interesting if true. The problem is that you don't know who to believe these days.

And the major bonus is that it could end up ripping the Tory party apart.

It might actually win them voters. Nobody is denying the the leave win but Theresa May has spent so much time trying to pander to idiots like Boris and Co she’s forgotten to take a sensible approach to brexit in favour of a hard brexit.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Not at all. And you know it.

You have made out that most trade from India comes through the UK to reach it's destination of the EU. You got this from a line saying India used to come to us first. Then you said many thousands of jobs will be lost because of it.

So how much comes through the UK on its way to the EU?

Again. All I have done is quote the article you linked.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
The impact on us is trade coming the other way. If India is importing €40B worth of goods into the EU and using the U.K. as the entry point to do that then you have to acknowledge that when this stops that is going to have an impact on UK jobs and businesses. The Indian exporter is not going to put an extra stop on their shipments for the fun of it are they? They’ve going to go direct to the EU to, as the article says, the benefit of France, Belgium and Germany. It will be their dock workers, customs workers, haulage companies etc. dealing with India to EU shipments not ours.

You are making an assumption on the reciprocal arrangements between the Eu and the uk post Brexit to the arrangement and more crucially the uk arrangement with India either of which can overcome this obstacle.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
I'm sure that she would prefer to do it, NI must be a real headache.
Yes and no.

Would sort out problems for her but also cause others. But the Ireland border is a massive problem.

Then how much would it cost to stay in? Would we have to keep to freedom of movement? The EU says we would have to. I can see the Tories and May getting away with it if it meant no more freedom of movement. But otherwise could see it ending up in a bloodbath.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
It might actually win them voters. Nobody is denying the the leave win but Theresa May has spent so much time trying to pander to idiots like Boris and Co she’s forgotten to take a sensible approach to brexit in favour of a hard brexit.
There are idiots on both sides.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
How about how much comes to the UK from India on the way to the EU?

This is going to be interesting.

You really didn’t understand that article did you. That’s the point I’ve been making. It comes to U.K. from India on the way to the EU because we’re in the EU. Try reading the article again and specifically the part I quoted.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
Again. All I have done is quote the article you linked.
No. You quoted one line that said they used to come to us first. And from that you worked out that many thousands would lose their jobs that work in the UK docks.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
You really didn’t understand that article did you. That’s the point I’ve been making. It comes to U.K. from India on the way to the EU because we’re in the EU. Try reading the article again and specifically the part I quoted.
So how much comes here on the way to the EU?

Why is it such a hard question that I have asked you several times considering you seem to know so much on the subject?
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
Yes and no.

Would sort out problems for her but also cause others. But the Ireland border is a massive problem.

Then how much would it cost to stay in? Would we have to keep to freedom of movement? The EU says we would have to. I can see the Tories and May getting away with it if it meant no more freedom of movement. But otherwise could see it ending up in a bloodbath.

I imagine that we would end up with FoM but with some sort of emergency brake for a fixed period of time as a concession. Regardless of whether FoM ends or not, we are unlikely to see a significant reduction in immigration, unless the economy really collapses.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
So how much comes here on the way to the EU?

Why is it such a hard question that I have asked you several times considering you seem to know so much on the subject?

You ask that like I claim to know which of course I never have. I know how much India imports into the EU (€40B) and I know from that article that you link that India traditionally uses the U.K. as its point of entry into the EU. I’ve said no more than that and claim no more than that. If container traffic from India slows down because the U.K. was traditionally used as point of entry into the EU but can no longer be that point of entry as it’s no longer in the EU and critically the single market you don’t have to be a genius to work out that will have a knock on effect.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member

Because we could have a free trade arrangement with the Eu and keep the existing arrangement which is clearly preferable to India anyway and not require any additional infrastructure from Europe. In addition we could include it in our terms with India.

In addition you ha e no idea what employment benefits this offers us and how much would be replaced a separate arrangement with India. We could have a win win and levy a charge to continue to assist a flow to the Eu so it does not in a years time have to increase port capacity to efficiently handle the flow.
 
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Astute

Well-Known Member
What about them? Are they going to replace us being India’s gateway into their biggest trade partner? Perhaps you can explain why.
So you’re just going to dodge the question then.

India imports over €40billion of goods into the Single Market every year and according to the article you linked the U.K. is the entrance point to that currently. That’s a hell of a lot of work for dock workers, lorry drivers, clearing agents, customs officers, rail freight workers etc.

How is that going to be replaced? Does it explain it in the article you linked?

What bad is it going to be for the EU? Goods will go direct to the continent instead of coming via the U.K. This will open up new trade roots on the continent and the job creation that goes with that. Again according to the article YOU linked it says that the shackles will be of for both the EU and India opening up a FTA.

Did you actually read the article because all it actually seems to do is point out benefits for the EU and negatives for the U.K. if anyone should have linked it to back up the argument it probably should have been me.
The impact on us is trade coming the other way. If India is importing €40B worth of goods into the EU and using the U.K. as the entry point to do that then you have to acknowledge that when this stops that is going to have an impact on UK jobs and businesses. The Indian exporter is not going to put an extra stop on their shipments for the fun of it are they? They’ve going to go direct to the EU to, as the article says, the benefit of France, Belgium and Germany. It will be their dock workers, customs workers, haulage companies etc. dealing with India to EU shipments not ours.
No. But the quote from your article clearly states that the U.K. has traditionally been India’s entry point into the EU.

Are you aware of the recent development of London Gateway? It currently has 3 deep sea births and can accommodate the worlds largest container ships. Part of the reason for this development was because it allows easy rail and road links with the channel tunnel and Dover.

It isn’t the only deep sea port in the EU and one of the reasons to use it is being diminished. Not just for India but the world as a whole.
You really didn’t understand that article did you. That’s the point I’ve been making. It comes to U.K. from India on the way to the EU because we’re in the EU. Try reading the article again and specifically the part I quoted.
So there are sime of the times you say it comes here first because of one line saying that they traditionally used to come to us first.

Do you understand the term 'used to'?

But no you still make out it comes here first. So how much comes here first?
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
Because we could have a free trade arrangement with the Eu and keep the existing arrangement which is clearly preferable to India anyway and not require any additional infrastructure from Europe. In addition we could include it in our terms with India.

I thought the EU and Europe weren't the same thing, yet you seem to use them interchangeably ;) The UK is very much part of Europe.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
You ask that like I claim to know which of course I never have. I know how much India imports into the EU (€40B) and I know from that article that you link that India traditionally uses the U.K. as its point of entry into the EU. I’ve said no more than that and claim no more than that. If container traffic from India slows down because the U.K. was traditionally used as point of entry into the EU but can no longer be that point of entry as it’s no longer in the EU and critically the single market you don’t have to be a genius to work out that will have a knock on effect.
Would.you like to repeat this?
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
I imagine that we would end up with FoM but with some sort of emergency brake for a fixed period of time as a concession. Regardless of whether FoM ends or not, we are unlikely to see a significant reduction in immigration, unless the economy really collapses.
I don't have a clue if will happen or not. And if it does what rules would have to be followed.

Out means out.
No cherry picking.

The two most used terms. They don't go together much.

FOM is a big one. The EU wants to keep it. But it would be a massive one for May to keep.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
We haven't left yet. Or do you know something that everyone else doesn't as usual?

If you are truthful you will admit that you know nothing until we know all deals made and have left to see how it works.

At worse there will be tariffs. So instead of billions going to the EU there will be billions going to our government instead of the German car makers for starters

What have we gained by leaving? Ok. What will we have gained after we have left?

Oh, that‘s good then. Are you saying that instead of buying German cars we will pay billions to the UK government? Or rather we will be paying more money for cars from Germany to give our government more money? A sort of extra tax so that we can feel the benefits of Brexit?
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
I don't have a clue if will happen or not. And if it does what rules would have to be followed.

Out means out.
No cherry picking.

The two most used terms. They don't go together much.

FOM is a big one. The EU wants to keep it. But it would be a massive one for May to keep.

I think being in the EEA would mean that the UK wouldn't be in the Customs Union with the EU, but it would be part of the Single Market buy not actually in the EU. I posted a video on here before of numerous leave politicians advocating it as an important and no one was calling for the UK to leave the Single Market.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
Theresa May says Brexit will reduce UK access to single market

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As the UK enters the most crucial stage of the Brexit negotiations the issues are getting even more challenging and intractable. One could be forgiven for saying that as one door closes another slams in your face. The government not only has to negotiate its preferred relationship between the UK and the EU, where the choices available are all rather grisly. The prime minister also has the additional burden of keeping her cabinet united. That she managed to get unanimous agreement in December for an increased budget offer was a reminder that Theresa May is both tough and resilient. I voted for Britain to remain in the EU and continue to believe that, on balance, Brexit does not best serve the national interest. But a different conclusion was reached by a majority of the British public and the evidence suggests that another referendum would produce the same result. Like many, my initial strong preference was that, if we are out of the EU, we should at least remain within the single market.

After all, the removal of trade barriers was one of the greatest successes of British diplomacy. As Margaret Thatcher’s Europe minister from 1983 to 1986 I saw her enthusiasm for free trade at a time when the French and others still harboured protectionist prejudices. Norway and Switzerland enjoy privileged participation in the single market Mrs Thatcher helped create. I hoped the UK could do the same. Sadly, I have concluded that this is not going to be possible for fundamental democratic reasons. It is not because we would have to pay for the privilege of access, as do the Norwegians and Swiss. That would be entirely reasonable. Nor is it because we would have to accept the continued jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. I am sure we could negotiate some joint jurisdiction for the ECJ and our own British courts that would be acceptable to supporters of Brexit. The fundamental problem would be the insistence of the EU that we would have to incorporate into our domestic law all future regulations and directives, although we would play no role in the drafting of these new laws. Both Norway and Switzerland accept that requirement. As smaller countries, they have concluded that in an EU of 28 countries they would have had little real power to influence the content of these laws even as members. For Britain, such a requirement would be both humiliating and indefensible. As one of the three largest economies in the EU we, along with Germany and France, have the predominant influence on the content of all new laws. In future we will have little or none. It would be particularly unacceptable to the City of London that we would be unable to influence, much less veto, the content of new laws that might seriously damage their interests. It would be particularly unacceptable to the City of London that we would be unable to influence, much less veto, the content of new laws that might seriously damage their interests This requirement creates an impenetrable barrier to remaining in the single market. Would France or Germany ever accept such an obligation? The answer is obvious. I am not so concerned about the need to accept new laws on the single market in a transition period out of the EU. That will only last for two years and, once it is concluded, we can repeal those we do not consider acceptable. However, a permanent requirement to accept into our law obligations that had never been accepted by our parliament or government would make references to Britain becoming a “vassal state” very persuasive. The arguments against remaining in the customs union are more complex. It would make it considerably more difficult, if not impossible, for us to enter into new trade agreements with the US or other third countries. The question, however, is whether that might be a price worth paying in the interests of British industry, for a temporary period after we leave the EU. At least one thing is clear. The future is not what it used to be.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
Many on here won't want to agree with this. But a lot of it has been said by Timothy Congdon. He is one of the leading economists. And he is a rare one that has got nearly everything right.

The economic case for a Brexit

Take time to read it and it will make sense. He said that Osborne was miles out with his numbers. And we found out he was right.

Remain Campaign Out By £100 BILLION, Economist Claims | Kipper Central

And I know some will see the rag this comes from and say it is all lies. But the person who is quoted seems to be the best economist we have. And you can't argue with his facts.


Project Fear got its sums WRONG by £100 BILLION, economist claims

You might prefer this one

Ditch Project Fear for Project Prosperity

As I have said several times we don't know where this is going. But I would prefer to listen to someone who has been proven to be right each time than someone who has been proven to be wrong each time.

Viewpoint: Brexit puts UK on new economic path
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Many on here won't want to agree with this. But a lot of it has been said by Timothy Congdon. He is one of the leading economists. And he is a rare one that has got nearly everything right.

The economic case for a Brexit

Take time to read it and it will make sense. He said that Osborne was miles out with his numbers. And we found out he was right.

Remain Campaign Out By £100 BILLION, Economist Claims | Kipper Central

And I know some will see the rag this comes from and say it is all lies. But the person who is quoted seems to be the best economist we have. And you can't argue with his facts.


Project Fear got its sums WRONG by £100 BILLION, economist claims

You might prefer this one

Ditch Project Fear for Project Prosperity

As I have said several times we don't know where this is going. But I would prefer to listen to someone who has been proven to be right each time than someone who has been proven to be wrong each time.

Viewpoint: Brexit puts UK on new economic path

It as Japan says“

Mr Tsuruoka told the Observer: “The reason that many of those companies have come is that this is the best gateway to Europe.

“If that is in danger, if that is no longer sustainable, of course they will have to look at what they will have to do best.

“I don't think the single marketcould be substituted by something and be better or even be the same.”
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
In the article Tim Congdon says:

„The Council of Ministers is - in practice - the EU's most important arena of decision-taking.

But Germany, despite having the largest population and by far the most substantial economy, with an output almost twice that of Italy, has been no more powerful on the council than five other countries.“

Which according to some on here as the whole thing was created for Germany‘s benefit and is controlled by Nazi Merkel. Who is more likely to be correct?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
In the article Tim Congdon says:

„The Council of Ministers is - in practice - the EU's most important arena of decision-taking.

But Germany, despite having the largest population and by far the most substantial economy, with an output almost twice that of Italy, has been no more powerful on the council than five other countries.“

Which according to some on here as the whole thing was created for Germany‘s benefit and is controlled by Nazi Merkel. Who is more likely to be correct?

No it’s creared because Germany is the natural beneficiary of a common currency across its neighbours. It controls the bank lending rate which is critical to economic policy - this has been explained to you numerous times.

I’m also fascinated to see you quoting Tim Congdon. Are you saying his views on Brexit are correct?
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
No it’s creared because Germany is the natural beneficiary of a common currency across its neighbours. It controls the bank lending rate which is critical to economic policy - this has been explained to you numerous times.

I’m also fascinated to see you quoting Tim Congdon. Are you saying his views on Brexit are correct?

No. He is a total Kipper. The articles were standard Kipper election campaign material. Just thought it strange him pointing out that Germany‘s strength in the Council doesn’t reflect it‘s economic strength. The constant Germany runs the EU line doesn’t mention this. He is of course right on this as Council voting is based on population figures not economic strength.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
No. He is a total Kipper. The articles were standard Kipper election campaign material. Just thought it strange him pointing out that Germany‘s strength in the Council doesn’t reflect it‘s economic strength. The constant Germany runs the EU line doesn’t mention this. He is of course right on this as Council voting is based on population figures not economic strength.

Ah so he’s selectively correct I see.

Also again I’ve told you numerous times why germany control all aspects of EU policy and pull all the strings.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Ah so he’s selectively correct I see.

Also again I’ve told you numerous times why germany control all aspects of EU policy and pull all the strings.

Selectively correct? Sometimes he is right and on the main points he is wrong. E.g. he doesn’t like regulations regarding climate change.

Sometimes even you are right.

Germany doesn’t control all aspects of EU policy. That is Juncker according to some on here and Kippers in general.
 

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